Hi, and please offer your thoughts.

N

NoTraction1970

Member
Grumpy,

Hi again.

Adrian, from Central Victoria in Australia.

New to registering on this site, but we've exchanged a little on ChevyTalk.

I am building a '38 Bedford truck into a rod, Big Block, TH400, 9", flat tray, airbag susp, chopped and channeled etc.

Just wondering if you might offer your opinion on this offering on eBay, quite close by to me here in Australia.

Seems to be reasonably priced, if the gear is not damaged.

I've decided to take your previous advice and make my new 427 tall deck into a 496 stroker.

Will this pair of heads suit the 500hp I would like? and the manifold?

Or is it too much?

Hope to hear from you soon with your always interesting and informative comments.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/110748873445 ... 1436.l2649

Cheers,

Adrian.
 
If the heads and intake are in good condition those will work just fine on a 496 BBC.
theres obvious differences between brands of heads, but the small rectangle port BRODIX BBC heads your linked to, are close to ideal in port size on a 496 BIG BLOCK, matched with the correct cam and car gearing and engine compression ratio, having selected, those parts you should easily exceed your horsepower goal.
what cam and car gearing and engine compression ratio are you thinking of using?
keep in mind, if you buy those parts your most likely going to need to change valve springs because 277lbs seat/800 lbs open springs are solid roller cam race only spring rates that are not ideal for a cam that might be used on the street.
if you expect to build an engine that lasts under street driven conditions youll need significantly lower valve spring rates and a hydraulic roller cam is going to usually be better for a street driven 496 BBC engine
the single plane intake will function but its designed for 4500rpm-7500rpm so its not ideal, Id have preferred a EDELBROCK DUAL PANE AIR GAP intake

a hydraulic roller cam like this, with that dual plane intake and valve springs with about a 130 lb seat and 350 llb fulll open load rate
and a 10.5"1 cpr would be about correct for a street car combo, expected to live a long happy life on the street, and something like the cam linked below would easily produce the power goal in a 10.5:1 cpr 496 with the parts suggested

Ideally you'll have a manual transmission or a 3200rpm stall converter with that cam and a 3.73:1-to- 4.11:1 rear gear
keep in mind on the street its massive instantly available , tire shredding torque that makes the car a great deal of fun to drive

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/

http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.p ... il&p=24226
MORE STREET FRIENDLY

http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.p ... il&p=24233
A bit more power a bit less street friendly, you can use the single plane intake, but still a good choice with a manual trans or 3200 rpm stall converter in a lighter car
If your building a tall deck block based BBC 496 stroker, youll generally want to build a tall deck, engine with longer connecting rods to take full advantage of the tall deck architecture
the deck heights .400 taller so youll generally want connecting rods that are longer on the 4.25", stroke , stroker crank
IVE GENERALLY USED SCAT CRANK ROTATING ASSEMBLIES WITH 7/16" ARP ROD BOLTS and 6.385" 0r 6.535" rods as they are longer to compensate for the .400 taller deck height, a call to SCAT will get you the correct part number for a kit forged and internally balanced rotating assembly kit Phone: 310 370 5501
Ive generally gone 6.535 with a 1.52 compression height on the tall deck blocks simply because the ring spacing and support clearances are better in my opinion

https://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/Automotive/Chevy_BB/open_champer_dome.aspx

http://www.jegs.com/i/Eagle/356/11512100/10002/-1?parentProductId=

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/project-cars/0704ch-chevy-big-block/

http://www.scatcrankshafts.com/rotating-assembies/chevy-rotating-assemblies/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...r-heads-or-piston-dome-volume.2077/#post-9049

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/another-496bbc.5123/page-2#post-49183

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/deck-height-problems.3048/#post-8049

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/build-a-496-stroker-bbc.101/#post-49427

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/a-mid-range-454-bbc-build.8215/#post-54632

496bbc99.jpg



496combo45.jpg


HERES THE SAME BASIC 496 WITH THE SINGLE PLANE INTAKE AND THE WILDER CRANE CAM, notice you traded some low rpm power for more peak hp, now probably 90% of the guys looking at the two dynos only see the peak hp, and conclude the more agreasive combos ALWAYS better, but in a heavier car with an auto trans the milder combos competitive and easier to drive on the street, if you look close the milder combos got about 60 ft lbs more off idle torque, and the milder combo stays ahead till about 4000rpm, most street engines driven easily seldom exceed that 4000rpm...yes you can make even more peak hp if your willing to trade even more low rpm torque, but youll soon be looking at cams and an rpm range that makes street operation marginal at best to go that route
 
Last edited by a moderator:
here is a few other builds, and related, linked info.
info you should read as it provides a good bit of very useful info as to your engine potential
just keep in mind bragging rights on impressive peak horse power might sound good, but having a dependable low maintenance combo that runs decent, and won,t require constant and expensive maintenance and parts replacement, designed to run in the 2500rpm-5000rpm range on the street is FAR more important, on any street driven cars engine.
the rather "MILD" 496 BBC combo proposed in the early part of this thread will destroy tires easily and if set up in the correct car with decent tires and suspension easily get the car into the low 11 second to mid 10 second range (mostly dependent on weight and traction
.

http://maliburacing.com/patrick_budd_article.htm

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5123

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5530

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10705&p=46582&hilit=better+expected#p46582

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1420

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3153

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=189

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=916

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1433

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1432&p=3182#p3182

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=170
 
Grumpy,

I negotiated those heads' price and dropped the intake manifold out of the deal. Got the heads, roller rockers and stud girdle all for AUS$2000 the pair, about US$2050, I guess.

The fella destroyed his bottom end with an oil surge and is out of the game. 468, methanol engine, all the lower half is scrap now.

Sold his rolling chassis for $50K, so it must have been a nice thing. Holden HG Premier apparently.

I will get them flow tested and let you know the numbers, so I can ask you for best cam specs.

Very impressed with the polished sneakers story.

Honestly, I think that 500 hp will be heaps, as I am planning the car to be around 2500 lbs.

6500- 7000 rpm will be the max I ever want, so I will be aiming for fat torque at the gear change points in the TH400.

3.75- 3.9 gears are my aim, and a 2500 - 3000 stall.

Thanks heaps for your help so far.

Cheers, Adrian.
 
Hi Grumpy. Compliments of the season etc. Been very busy so project slowed.
I've sent the tall deck 427 in for some machining work (needed a sleeve).
Going 0.060" over, so looking for pistons now. What do you think of these, L2307AF-60?
With a 4.25" stroke, what rod would I use?
I do the math and get a 6.43 rod length (10.2 - 1.645 - 2.125 = 6.43).
Does such an animal exist?
Will 50cc dome give too much compression in my 119cc heads? I think it looks like 11.5:1. Am I right?
If I add 6.535 rods, the height works out at 10.305". Bent rods are not my thing. :)
Oh, and have definitely decided to grout the block, up to the bottom of the welsh plugs, to stop it walking around.
Cheers, Adrian.
 
496 strokers commonly use 6.385" connecting rods

Ive used several sets of these
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-6638522/


6.430" subtract-6.385" shows the piston deck to be about .045 below the block deck in theory (YOU WILL NEED TO MEASURE AND VERIFY)
this is hardly rare and its not necessarily a problem, because its common for blocks to need to be decked to have the surface strait and level, removing .010-.030 is fairly common, again check with your machine shop, your 50 cc dome is also not necessarily a huge problem but you will need to calculate compression with the correct piston and block deck measurements once they are known, and verify the piston to valve clearance once the cams degreed in.


related info, worth reading

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=5520&p=16617&hilit=cam+degree+tools#p16617

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=247

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=399

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=2919

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=125

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=976&p=1706&hilit=sonic+test#p1706

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=588&p=764&hilit=sonic+test#p764
 
So, then, if all other things are equal and the block is measuring ok to machine a little of the deck off to suit 6.385 rods, which of these 2 crankshafts would be the better choice, given identical pricing? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ESP-445442546385/ or http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ESP-445442526385/ ?

They both suit 6.385" rods, apparently.

One is 'lightweight'. what does that do for me?

Is it ok to machine some piston dome off, if comp is going to be too high? or do I find thicker gaskets? machine less off deck?

thanks, Adrian.
 
NoTraction1970 said:
So, then, if all other things are equal and the block is measuring ok to machine a little of the deck off to suit 6.385 rods, which of these 2 crankshafts would be the better choice, given identical pricing? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ESP-445442546385/ or http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ESP-445442526385/ ?

They both suit 6.385" rods, apparently.

One is 'lightweight'. what does that do for me?

NOT MUCH! but in THEORY it allows the engine to spin up faster, in reality the only time you use engine power is with a 30lb flywheel,and 30 plus lbs of rods pistons and damper, a 30 lb clutch and spinning several hundred lbs of drive train , so the 2-5 lbs difference in crank weights all but meaningless

Is it ok to machine some piston dome off, if comp is going to be too high?

yes thats sometimes an option but the machine shop needs to measure before thats done, and you want to try to maintain a .038-.044 quench
or do I find thicker gaskets? machine less off deck?

thanks, Adrian.
Click to expand...

crg1.jpg


http://bikearama.com/theory/calculate-c ... ion-ratio/

http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/compstaticcalc.html

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

READ THRU THESE THREADs and SUB THREADS

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=5328&p=15876&hilit=longer+rods#p15876

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4081&hilit=quench

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5123

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1420
 
so, these pistons, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SLP-L2307AF60/
this crank, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ESP-445442526385/
these rods, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ESP-6385B3D/
this cam, http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.p ... il&p=24226
these heads, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BRO-2011001/ (Ported 300cc intake runners)
and an 850 cfm carby.
Does this look like a good thing to you?

And, with quench, is the gasket thickness included in that number? If I were to leave the 0.045" in extra deck height to try to lower compression to just under 11:1 static, and 8.8:1 dynamic, using the calculator you recommended, http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp, in top to bottom order I have input the following numbers;
119
-50
.040
4.31
4.31
.045
4.25
6.385
62
What else can I do to achieve the 10.5:1/ 8.5:1 ratio?
And will quench be any good then?
 
Hey Grumpy.. I already bought the Brodix heads a few months back. Came with roller rockers, stud girdles, stainless valves, ported to 300cc intakes, and those springs that I will have to replace, as 300lb closed/800lb open. Cost me $2K all up, so good deal, I felt.
Still not sure about some of the other suggestions. Struggling to find a cam that meets the right numbers for 10.5 static and 8.5 dynamic, using the spreadsheet you referred to in another post (not the commercial calculators, but an excel sheet, (home-written).
The home-written spreadsheet needed the cam to get 1 deg adv, to match the advertised figures. (this is the cam you suggested a few months back, http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.p ... il&p=24226 ).
But then the LSA was all wrong (not near 108), and more to the point, dropped the dynamic compression below 8:1, even though Static got to near 11:1
So, my preference is:
10.2 tall deck, grouted to bottom of plugs, .060" over, 6.8" rods, 1.27" comp height slugs, around 23-24cc dome, 4.25" crank, the Brodix heads with roller rockers, (1.7:1), 850 holley DP, edelbrock performer/rpm dual plane air gap, or like and power in 2200- 6000 rpm range. No big rpm, as discussed.

Any other cam ideas?

Sorry to seem a bit retarded, but I want the best outcome first time. Definitely not chasing stupid numbers, want a torquey fun truck to spend the weekends in. Bit of street, bit of Drags, to 11-12 second region and a few burnout comps.
Vehicle is likely to be around 2500 - 3000lb weight.

Thanks for all your help, so far.

Adrian.
 
first, take a few deep breaths ,so far youve done nothing wrong!
 while its very true some combos will produce better power than others its also certainly true that youve selected good components and with a bit of calculating your going to build an outstandingly effective combo!
EVERY CHOICE YOU MAKES A COMPROMISE IN SOME AREA, THERES NO PERFECT COMBO! :mrgreen:
having the dynamic compression ratio fall between about 7.7:1 and about 8.4:1 is the basic goal, along with getting the quench in the .038-.044 range and the duration and lift reasonable for the application, changes in header, length, diam, collector design, design, indexing the cam, and intake selection can also be used to tweak the results you get and move the torque curve, the larger the displacement and the better the heads flow the more cushion or room to make minor mistakes you have or margin of error, and still have a decent running combo, thats not to say you can randomly throw together parts but a few degrees in cam timing sure won,t totally ruin the results if you get the basic selection near correct.

this cam works fine if you drop the static compression to around 10.2:1 and retard it 4 degrees to the strait up split overlap index


http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.p ... il&p=24226


http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp2

you can also leave the static 10.5:1 compression and select a slightly different cam. like this one

http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.p ... il&p=24234
or for a smoother idle and better traffic manors
http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.p ... il&p=24225

youll simply gain a bit more high rpm peak hp with the higher compression and bit more duration at the cost of a bit less low rpm torque , but remember that 496 big blocks got plenty of torque potential, so its an easy trade if you go that route, in fact many guys would suggest you go that route to keep from destroying street tires so easily

If you read thru the links and sub links below youll notice the cams were currently disusing are rather MILD compared to whats being used to produce impressive peak power numbers but that because your goal as stated is to have a rather nice STREET DRIVABLE combo rather that a RACING ENGINE, and a cam in the 240 duration range (especially if its got a 112 lsa) should allow power brakes to work in a 496 where a more radical duration cam is very unlikely to

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5123

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1420
 
Hey Grumpy.
Been a while since we spoke, so i thought I would update you with my slow progress. Trying to source a piston now, for 4.310 bore, 1.52 - 1.535 pin height. Had the block deck height measured and got very reasonable results.
Tall deck, so; piston 1 = 10.199", 7 = 10.197, 2 = 10.197, 8 = 10.203.
Meanwhile, I bought some "Callies Compstar" 'H beam' forged 6.535" rods, with ARP2000 bolts, for about half retail price, although still brand new!
If I minimally deck the block to 10.195", I end up with 10.195" - 2.125" - 6.535" = 1.535".
I cannot find an off the shelf piston with that pin height, only 1.52"!
Further to this, the only 1.52" pin height pistons, that I can find listed, do not offer 23-24cc lumpy tops!!!!
Does this mean I should;
A, get custom 24cc domed pistons with 1.535" pin height?
or
B, deck another 0.015" off it, to 10.180" and get custom 24cc domed pistons at 1.52" pin height?
What do you think?
Thanks again for your shared wealth of information and knowledge.
Cheers,
Adrian.
 
any time your forced to compromise, if using off the shelf parts , you might want to look into having custom fabricated parts,because many of the major piston companys will be glad to custom make, modify , or suggest something they already make thats close to , or exactly matches your needs, remember most don't list everything they sell and in many cases its little or no extra cost to get a piston cut to a non-standered bore diam.what you need, in nearly any config you suggest and while the cost varies a great deal between them a bit of phone time and questions can get you some facts/prices to work with.
on my last 383 I could not find EXACTLY what I wanted to use and the closest off the shelf piston set cost $578 I got custom made for $662

SRP
http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/SRP/Chevy_BB.aspx

ross 1-310.536.0100
http://www.rosspistons.com/information/index.php

ICON 1-800-648-7970

JE (714) 898-9763 http://www.jepistons.com/PDFs/OrderInfo ... erform.pdf

wiseco 1-800-321-1364 http://www.wiseco.com/

arias http://www.ariaspistons.com/custompistons.html
PH 310 - 532 - 9737

http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=piston_comp

http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/pistons- ... -bore.html
 
Heya again.

I am going to get Ross Pistons to custom build my slugs for me. Seem to be a great bunch of guys, esp the one I am dealing directly with, Dominic Carollo.

I have 2 options available to me, by going custom.

I can deck my block 0.020", to zero deck it to a 1.52" pin height, OR, I can get Ross Pistons to give me a custom pin height (1.53"), to minimise the decking to 0.010", or even less, if I want.

What do you think?

I personally think I would be better to stick to a standard pin height, but I thought I would get your opinion as well, seeing as how I have you as an expert resource.

I am also getting H-13 tool steel, 0.200" wall thickness pins, instead of 5115 Chromoly ones. This is because, in the vague future, I might like to add some NO2 to the game. Rings will be to suit NO2 too.

Cost is going to be around $1050.00 + shipping to Australia.

Hope you have a great Easter weekend. I am still yet to arrive home, for my weekend. Joys of travelling job I guess.

Cheers,

Adrian.
 
if your current deck is ok, Id avoid decking the block , the less you spend to get a valid combo the better now, as the decking procedure and metal removed might be needed at a later date to correct a future problem.
You really can,t make a bad choice as either route will work. Id personally go with the stock 1.52 deck height,but theres no problem going with the 1.53 pin height, either, because even if you deck the block or swap blocks they make , .045, .060, ..090 ETC. ETC. thick head gaskets, and you will be able to get the correct quench and compression.
id try and get the quench distance in the .040--.044 range and have at least .120 valve to piston clearance, and be less concerned with the compression.


related threads

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4081&hilit=quench

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=399&p=21603&hilit=piston+valve+clay#p21603

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=2733&p=7291&hilit=piston+valve+clay+quench#p7291
 
Hi. has been quite some time now, since I hassled you with my questionings. So, just wondering as I now finally reach the stage of assembling the bottom end, what the story is with 'alecular' bearings, for the mains? And then further to that, full groove, or half? Full groove worries me a little, as the bottom half of the bearing shell would offer less support area under heavy load/rpm? I have decided to up the ante a little, after discovering that I wont get this vehicle 'on the road' in Australia, due to heavy mods.... grrr. I am now going to run a Weiand Team G single plane manifold and lift the power range a little, mostly for drag racing now. I got the block decked to 10.180", zero decked it to the 1.52 pin height ROSS custom pistons, bored it 0.060" over, relieved it for the stroker (only a tiny bit for each rod bolt). Now sourcing the Crane Cams HR-240/365 hyd roller cam and wondering what to use for lifters. Any recommendations? Will any sort do, or are there better and worse? Fel-Pro#1027 gasket states it will compress to 0.039", so I feel that quench is going to be just fine. I just realised that it is over a year, since we chatted, so I hope you have been well.I was transferred to Tasmania, for work, about 3 weeks after your last message. COLD! Any feedback you might offer will be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Adrian.
 
NoTraction1970 said:
Hi. has been quite some time now, since I hassled you with my questionings. So, just wondering as I now finally reach the stage of assembling the bottom end, what the story is with 'alecular' bearings, for the mains?
Id suggest the CLEVITE H series as Ive always had good results with those... read the linked info below
And then further to that, full groove, or half?
upper bearing half,s , that seats in the block grooves are fine, but don,t use lower bearings that seat in the main caps
Full groove worries me a little, as the bottom half of the bearing shell would offer less support area under heavy load/rpm? I have decided to up the ante a little, after discovering that I wont get this vehicle 'on the road' in Australia, due to heavy mods.... grrr. I am now going to run a Weiand Team G single plane manifold and lift the power range a little, mostly for drag racing now. I got the block decked to 10.180", zero decked it to the 1.52 pin height ROSS custom pistons, bored it 0.060" over, relieved it for the stroker (only a tiny bit for each rod bolt). Now sourcing the Crane Cams HR-240/365 hyd roller cam and wondering what to use for lifters. Any recommendations?
as a general rule you want to use the roller lifters made by the same manufacturer as the cam simply because if you use a different brand lifter , and have problems at any point, the cam warranty is always in question and unlikely to be honored, now in reality, it should make little or no difference , if quality parts are used
Will any sort do, or are there better and worse? Fel-Pro#1027 gasket states it will compress to 0.039", so I feel that quench is going to be just fine. I just realised that it is over a year, since we chatted, so I hope you have been well.I was transferred to Tasmania, for work, about 3 weeks after your last message. COLD! Any feedback you might offer will be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Adrian.
try to get the quench in the .038-.044 range

RELATED THREADS

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=3449&p=9135&hilit=bearings+grooves#p9135

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3519&p=9289&hilit=bearings+grooves#p9289

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=2351&p=6206&hilit=bearings+grooves#p6206

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=1027&p=2393#p2393

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=619&p=10925&hilit=bevel+journal#p10925

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viewtopic.php?f=53&t=852&p=1311&hilit=bevel+journal#p1311
Click to expand...
 
Heya again. Back into the project after some time away from it. Clevite H series Bearings I ordered from White Performance and Machine, I accidently clicked on .001" undersize instead of STD. Do I need to modify my order? What is the point of .001 under? tighter clearances? And also, any recommendations for oil pump brand and flow rate? Cheers and Happy New Year, Adrian. link to bearings I bought here>> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/200907710197 ... 1439.l2649
 
I like ACL bearing, lots of people in my area do, apparently they are very strong and show very little to no wear at all vs the king's/clevite bearing.
I know bearing undersize sometime is used when you remove some metal from the crank, may be used to set bearing clearance too.

You could try contacting the ebay seller, he can be nice (and offer refund or exchange for the right size) or not.
 
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