installing an oil pump pick-up tube

Discussion in 'Oil and Lube Systems' started by grumpyvette, Jun 11, 2009.

  1. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    there's two ways ,...... you can use the correct tool, which is ADVISABLE!
    use this oil pump(link below) in most stock SBC builds, as it produces a 10% increase in oil volume and standard pressure which is just fine , but obviously check your bearing clearances and oil pump to oil pan floor clearances and braze the CORRECT MATCHING pick-up to the pump, and I,d also suggest if you have the room, for clearance that you look into one of the less expensive 7 quart baffled oil pans as they provide a good deal more potential protection and durability to your bearings longevity. be very sure you verify the oil pump pick-up to oil pan floor clearance, and braze the pick-up to the pump body.
    yes theres less expensive oil pumps that will work, but thats a good value, in a well made pump.
    WATCH VIDEO, get the oil pump pick-up to oil pan floor clearance correct and for darn sure braze or tig weld the pick-up to the pump once the clearance is verified


    https://www.enginelabs.com/news/video-how-to-moroso-performance-explains-oil-pump-pickup-clearance/
    first choice
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-10552/overview/ SBC
    or
    http://www.jegs.com/i/Melling/689/10778C/10002/-1 BBC
    its not that difficult to remove the oil pan, replace the gasket with a new one piece synthetic one and cure that leak,
    most guys can do that in a single afternoon with the car up on 4 12 ton jack stands rather easily.
    be aware that the crank counter weights rotated to the correct location makes removing the oil pan a bit easier.
    it might be a great opportunity to swap to a higher capacity baffled oil pan.
    obviously youll want to carefully research the correct oil pan for your engine and chassis before purchasing one

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ctr-15-240/overview/make/chevrolet/model/corvette
    7" deep


    https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=11-102
    6.5" deep



    https://www.carid.com/moroso/oil-pa...MIraOQn-602QIVBJ7ACh2mTwt4EAQYAyABEgJZWfD_BwE

    7" deep


    theres lots of 8" and 8.25" deep corvette oil pans but they don,t last too long with speed bumps and raised manhole cover rims



    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...MIytnIx-y02QIVHrjACh35mQ-OEAQYASABEgJnZvD_BwE

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...etic-oil-cause-leaky-gaskets.2725/#post-13817

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/under-car-safety.26/page-4#post-69999

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-pan-gasket-still-small-leak.3084/#post-11971

    http://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/10/23/oil-well-choosing-proper-pressure-volume-oil-pump/


    http://www.mellingselectperformance.com/Products/Cast-Iron-Oil-Pumps

    second choice
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mil-18750/overview/ SBC
    related threads you should read

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ibutors-wont-seat-on-intake.12538/#post-63636

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2376

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=206&p=390#p390

    http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article ... pumps.aspx

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3536

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/sbc-oil-pump-noise.14582/

    http://www.aa1car.com/library/2005/us020516.htm

    http://www.moroso.com/catalog/pdf/Oil_Pumps_106.pdf

    http://www.milodon.com/oil-system/oil-pumps.asp

    http://www.melling.com/Info/TechTipVideos.aspx
    the idea that you can 'pump the pan dry" with a high volume oil pump, in a properly set up chevy engine has been proven false dozens of times, thats a myth that myth been repeated for decades and the reason its gained its supposed verification as fact is simply that guys install a high voluum oil pump in the same engine that they just removed a stock oil pump from and find that they reve the engine and the oil pressure starts to go up then tops out or even drops off , the instant and wrong conclusion drawn is that the high voluum oil pump sucked the oil pan dry, but what really happened in almost every case was a bit simpler.
    high volume oil pumps have a longer body that moves the oil pump pick-up closer to the oil pan floor and if the clearance is not checked and corrected to maintain the required 3/8"-1/2" minimum clearance it severely restricts the flow into the oil pump and pressure drops of as a result of the restriction on the intake side of the oil pump pick-up.
    this is a fairly easy to problem too prevent ,during assembly with careful measuring, and a bit of clay,to check clearance, before you braze the pick-up to the oil pump, especially if you braze a 1/2" nut to the lower surface of the oil pump pick up to prevent it from vibrating down close to the oil pan floor should it come loose and if you weld braces to prevent its movement after carefully measuring the correct clearance.
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    opening and smoothing the recessed area and porting the oil passage entrance reduces the restriction to oil flow
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    notice the open slot between the rear main cap supporting the oil pump and bearing shell support and the area supporting the rear main seal, this prevents PRESSURIZED oil from the bearings reaching the rear main seal.
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    the as cast recess in the rear main cap where the oil pump mounts can be rather restrictive and shallow, and if your replacing a missing main cap , with one from a different block you'll very likely be required to have the block?cap too be line honed to get the correct alignment and fit clearances for the crank shaft
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    [​IMG]
    Chevrolet Performance 14091563
    Left (Driver Side) Dipstick Plug
    Chevrolet Performance 9421743

    Right (Passenger Side) Dipstick Plug
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    http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0911-small-block-chevy-oil-pumps/

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    Ive seen this frequently, and almost always its a case where if you measure carefully, youll almost surely find,
    the oil pump drive shaft is bottoming out solidly between the oil pump and the distributor gear is binding,
    so the distributor is not firmly seated against the intake manifold surface.
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    the oil pump drive shaft length MUST BE about .050 SHORTER than the distance it would take to firmly seat it inside the distributor drive gear, the cam has a gear that spins the distributor and the oil pump drive shaft is driven by that distributor gear in the lower distributor that extends down to the oil pump drive.


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    this gear must not bind on the distributor too oil pump drive shaft when the distributor is seated firmly on the intake manifold and clamped into place there must be about .050 clearance minimum
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    related threads you should really read

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-pump-drive-shafts.123/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ibutors-wont-seat-on-intake.12538/#post-63636

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-pump-drive-shafts.123/#post-19025

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-an-oil-pump-pick-up-tube.1800/#post-43110

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/distributor-gear-wear.1701/#post-4160

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...butor-clamp-that-just-won-t-clamp-firmly.871/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-allows-the-distrib-to-turn-even-tighten.873/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/setting-timing-question.1411/#post-3131
    [​IMG]
    ADDING A WELL DESIGNED WINDAGE SCREEN SPEEDS OIL RETURN SPEEDS . AND EFFICIENCY TO THE ENGINE SUMP
    your typical small block oil pump has a 4 bolt cover, a 5/8" pick-up tube diameter and the pick-up presses into the cover , it has the smaller 7 tooth gears, and because the pick-up tube presses into the cover swapping from a standard to a high volume pump, with its longer impeller and hoseing casting, tends to move the pick-up about 1/4" closer to the oil pan floor


    http://www.mellingselectperformance.com ... -Oil-Pumps

    while your checking put some modeling clay under both pick-ups and see the effective clearance difference then see if the old pump clears the problem, in an ideal world the pick-up to pan floor clearance is a minimum of 3/8" and 1/2" is ideal

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    OIL PUMP MODS
    http://www.corvette-restoration.com/res ... ancing.htm

    http://www.corvette-restoration.com/res ... lation.htm
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    small block pumps have 7 tooth gears and 4 bolt covers and don,t provide the smooth oil flow rates the 12 tooth, and 5 bolt cover big block gear pumps provide
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    big block vs small block chevy oil pump

    the standard big block chevy oil pump has a 3/4" oil pump pick-up that is inserted in the main pump body, NOT THE 5 BOLT LOWER COVER

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    [​IMG]

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    your typical small block oil pump has a 4 bolt cover, a 5/8" pick-up tube diameter and the pick-up presses into the cover , it has the smaller 7 tooth gears, and because the pick-up tube presses into the cover swapping from a standard to a high volume pump, with its longer impeller and hoseing casting, tends to move the pick-up about 1/4" closer to the oil pan floor
    [​IMG]
    your typical big block oil pump has a 5 bolt cover, a 3/4" pick-up tube diameter and the pick-up presses into the pump body , it has the larger more efficient 12 tooth gears and in many cases can be mounted on a small block, but its usually not required
    BIG BLOCK CHEVY 5 BOLT cover pump
    [​IMG]

    the standard SMALL block chevy oil pump has a 5/8" oil pump pick-up that is inserted in the lower oil pump 4 bolt lower gear cover
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    SBC 4 BOLT COVER OIL PUMP
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    SBC pumps have 7 tooth gears and BBC pumps generally have 12 tooth gears making the flow more consistent
    a well supported oil pump pick-up tends to cause far fewer issues than one that cab flex and vibrate as metal fatigue can eventually cause them to break

    http://www.mellingselectperformance.com/Products/Cast-Iron-Oil-Pumps


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    BRAZING IS ALWAYS A GOOD IDEA,(just be sure to remove the bye-pass circuite parts and verify function when reinstalled)
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    vibration can and does occasionally cause pick-up failures
    Tig welding is OK, BRAZING the pick-up once youve determined the correct oil pan floor clearance is PREFERRED

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    ITS always a good idea to verify the oil pan floor to oil pump pick-up clearance and to braze the pick-up to the oil pump, to reduce the potential for it to come loose.

    [​IMG]
    yes you can MIG ,TIG or TORCH WELD the pick-up but I found BRAZING works the best and is less likely to warp or crack the pump or pick-up

    "how in hell do those twisty, safety wire pliers work?"
    [​IMG]
    well a video should be helpful here! Id also point out that you can buy the wire in several diameters and the thicker sizes are far more difficult to use, home depot sells the 22 gauge and 18 gauge, the 22-24 gauge is what youll use far more commonly, as its much easier to use,both stainless (PREFERED) and galvanized are used, and will work on 95% of the applications on a car your likely to use.

    using anti-seize paste on bolt or stud threads helps prevent future problems
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    using safety wire pliers





    bracing the oil pump with a milodon vibration brace can increase durability
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    MORE USEFUL INFO
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    BE 100% SURE that the oil pump bolt or STUD doesn,t protrude past the inner main cap surface , because if it bears on the rear main bearing shell it will almost always result in a quickly failed rear bearing
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    http://www.islandblue.com/store/product ... -ASSORTED/

    TO FUNCTION CORRECTLY THE OIL PUMP PICK UP MUST BE MOUNTED AT BETWEEN 3/8" and 1/2" FROM THE OIL PAN FLOOR,CHECK CAREFULLY WITH CLAY and a DIAL CALIPER ,BEFORE BRAZING OR TIG WELDING THE PUMP PICK-UP TO THE PUMP BODY , ONE OF THE MOST COMMON MISTAKES IS INSTALLING A HIGH VOLUME OIL PUMP AND NOT CAREFULLY VERIFYING THE OIL PUMP PICK-UP TO OIL PAN FLOOR CLEARANCE IS IN TH 3/8"-1/2" RANGE WITH THE PAN INSTALLED OR FORGETTING TO BRAZE THE PICK-UP AND ADDING A BRACE TO KEEP IT FROM MOVING, FAILURE TO DO THAT CAN FREQUENTLY RESULT IN LOWER OIL PRESSURE AS THE RPMS INCREASE BECAUSE THE OIL PUMP CAN,T GET ENOUGH OIL INTO THE PUMP THRU THE RESTRICTED OPEN AREA BELOW THE OIL PUMP PICK-UP...FREQUENT WRONGLY DIAGNOSED AS THE PUMP, PUMPING THE PAN DRY, WHICH IS NOT THE CAUSE

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    place the clay under the pick-up and temporarily mount the oil pan, then remove it and check the compressed clay, get this correct or youll have oil pressure and flow issues

    THIS LOOKS like it might be exactly what I buy at my local miller welding supply dealer for brazing/silver soldering, oil pump pick-up tubes to oil pumps, I doubt youll have any issues using it for that application,
    but the last time I purchased it it was priced at $6 a stick, or just over $107 for a pack of 20 sticks
    and IM fairly sure it said #15 on the package...luckily you seldom require more than about 1/2 a stick to braze an oil pump pick-up onto an oil pump


    btw if your curious as too the reference to PLASTIC timing gears, they DO cause problems and should be replaced, because not only will the chain stretch and slip eventually, the nylon debris will clog the oil pump pick-up over time, remember the oil pump pick-up would need to allow the nylon trash to go through the gears and into the oil pump, main cap and only then enter the oil filter.
    BE DAMN SURE THE OIL PUMP PICK-UP HAS A LAGER SCREEN SURFACE AREA
    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/timing-chains-stretch.5734/#post-17492

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...oil-passages-and-improved-oil-flow-mods.3834/

    http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/P ... lv-15.aspx

    http://store.cyberweld.com/tubrrodsi15s ... productads

    http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/P ... azing.aspx

    and I have used a propane torch in the past but my ox-acetolene torch works much better

    HARRIS AND VICTOR are the torch brands I prefer
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    Ive always found the best results from keeping the low rpm pressure , in the 15psi-20psi at hot idle and no more than 65psi at high rpms,is really useful, the voluum required depends on the way the engines clearances and oil systems designed or modified ,voluum/viscosity/clearances in the approximately stock range works fine in most .
    I like high voluum pumps but I certainly don,t use them IF the engines nearly stock as the standard Z28 SBC pump works fine
    "the standard volume pump gears are about 1.2" long the high volume pump gears are about 1.5 inches long (depends on manufacturer)
    heres the discriptions right from chevy

    12555884
    SBC Oil Pump, High Pressure Z28/LT1. Production high-pressure oil pump with 1.20" gears.Will produce 60-70 psi oil pressure. Does not include screen. The pickup tube dia. is 5/8" for this pump.
    62.17


    the true high voluum pumps like this below are not necessary UNTILL youve done extensive mods that require the expra oil flow voluum

    14044872
    SBC Oil Pump, High-Volume. This high-volume pump has1.50" long gears.It has approximately 25% more capacity than a production pump at standard pressure. Does not include screen."

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

    keep in mind, most bbc pumps have 5 bolts in the cover and the pump body is where the pick-up tube installs
    keep in mind, most sbc pumps have 4 bolts in the cover and the pump cover is where the pick-up tube installs

    http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Oil-Pump- ... GoogleBase

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOIhaI3e ... r_embedded

    http://books.google.com/books?id=GUC52- ... t&resnum=3

    use the correct tool to seat the oil pump pick-up using a wrench and hammer often distorts the tube

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-mcat-75

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-mcat-62

    [​IMG]

    http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

    viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1948

    viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2194&p=5905#p5905

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2080

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1837

    heres some decent designed oil pans for bbc and SBC, naturally you need to verify if they work in your application

    http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categoryd ... code=11330

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187
    btw, Ive built SBC engine with standard oil pumps, and big block oil pumps, in the past, and while I have experience doing it both ways and setting engines up with clearances both on the tighter side of the range with the standard oil pumps and a bit looser with the 5 bolt big block pumps, theres a system that needs to be used , not just an oil pump you stick in an engine, generally if you opt to install the larger big block 5 bolt oil pump theres a reason, and you do mods that require the extra oil flow rates., things like larger auxiliary outside mount oil coolers,come to mind.
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    or lets go the cheaper route,

    you clamp the oil pump body minus the gears and base plate (which you remove temporarily) in a vise with the tube entrance facing vertically, and a short section of soft pine 2x4 under the pump body , if you support the pump body underneath with a section of soft wood 2 x 4 and cushion the vise jaws and clamped between two sections of 1/2" plywood to cushion the vice jaws you find a crows foot open end wrench, or the correct tool, that clamps to the pick-up, that slides over the oil pump pick-up tube but not over the ridge, in the tube that in theory prevents you from inserting the tube too deeply into the pump body. can be use to efficiently tap the tube into the pump body.
    failure to use the wood as a vise jaw cushion, binding the drive shaft, marring the mount surface or over tightening the vise will sometimes damage the pump, so be cautious, use your common sense, and treat the pump as the fairly fragile piece of precision casting that it is!

    be aware that some pick-ups will extent too far into the pump body if inserted up to the full depth so verify internal pump gear clearance and smooth function,before brazing the pick-up tube into place
    use a 8" extension and the crows foot wrench and a rubber mallet to seat the pick-up tube into the pump body, then temporarily mount the oil pump and place a lump of modeling clay on the pick-up body lower surface and install the oil pan for a second to compress the clay giving you the distance between the oil pump pick-up and the oil pan floor, adjust it until the distance is approximately 3/8"-1/2"
    once that distance is correct BRAZE the pickup to the pump body AFTER temporarily removing the bye-pass spring so it won,t get annealed, and its a very good idea to use the type of pick-up that has both the feed tube and the screened suction section braced to the pump body, so they don,t crack from vibration and metal fatigue.
    Id also point out that a few of the oil pump pick up designs available , have tubes that can be pressed into the pump body far enough to contact the gears, if pounded into the pump to the swagged ring on the mount tube, it makes a good deal more sense to radias the exit port and insert the pick-up only to the point the exit tort radias reaches it and after careful measuring and removing the spring assembly to BRAZE the pick up to the pump body. It also helps to weld in a vibration brace.
    LIKE THESE
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    if you use a non-supported pick-up like this one below, its far more likely to break
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    once that's done you clean lube and re-install the pump components and verify clearances, and the gears spin freely with out binding, don,t forget to use some MOLY assembly lube, or VASOLINE on the gears to assure it primes quickly.

    BTW if you have a sudden drop in oil pressure on any engine with no other symptoms, you might want to replace the oil filter and check oil levels before you panic as its not uncommon for some brands of oil filters to fail internally

    YOU NEVER want to bolt the pump body to the rear main cap and beat the pick-up into the pump body as that will result in un- acceptable stress on the cast pump body which CAN RESULT IN A TOTAL PUMP FAILURE

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=52&p=61&hilit=+braze#p61

    [​IMG]


    brazing the oil pump pick-up tube to the pump body after carefully checking clearances will usually prevent the oil pump pick-up from vibrating loose over time
    BRAZING the pick-up to the pump is a good idea but remember to remove the pressure regulator valve first and oil and replace it after the pumps cooled


    viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4306&p=11353#p11353

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOIhaI3e ... r_embedded

    this is a factory produced hamberger oil pan but its a decent example of what can be fabricated
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    TEL: (562) 921-0404
    http://www.hamburgersperformance.com/

    other options

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=206&p=242&hilit=+gasket+synthetic#p242

    http://www.stefs.com/products/oilpans/supergascompstreetpans.htm

    http://www.kevkoracing.com/wetsump_chevy.htm

    http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=11330
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2018
  2. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    pick up designs
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    almost every mechanics tool box needs a few basic measuring tools and supplies, dealing in proven facts as to correct clearance sure beats guessing
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    [​IMG]https://www.amazon.com/Claytoon-Set...d=1466872286&sr=8-17&keywords=plastilina+clay

    http://www.utrechtart.com/Plastalin...currency=USD&gclid=CN3G75zOw80CFQgaaQodKbgFjA
    http://www.milodon.com/oil-system/pickups.asp

    http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categoryd ... code=12001

    http://poske.com/detail_it.htm?groupid=179

    http://www.stefs.com/products/oilpumppi ... alpump.htm

    http://www.mellingselectperformance.com/Products/Cast-Iron-Oil-Pumps

    this is the more common SBC chevy design
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    this is the more common BBC chevy design
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    IVE used these aftermarket designs many times with zero problems, keep in mind BRAZING the pickup to the pump body is a good durability idea, and the pan you selected will limit your pick-up design choices.
    just make sure its solidly brazed to the pickup port in the oil pump body even if its a bolt on design and that the pickup tube inside the pump does not extend in far enough to contact the pump gears as occasionally they do!


    [​IMG]

    keep in mind, most bbc pumps have 5 bolts in the cover and the pump body is where the pick-up tube installs
    keep in mind, most sbc pumps have 4 bolts in the cover and the pump cover is where the pick-up tube installs


    great!
    now BRAZE the pick-up tube to the pump,at the correct clearance from the oil pan floor,(after temporarily removing the bye-pass spring to prevent its getting annealed) because engine vibrations WILL FREQUENTLY over time in most cases cause the pump pick-up to move, if its only press fit,and if you operate the engine at higher rpm levels ,if you don,t braze the pick-up.

    viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1948&p=5176&hilit=braze#p5176

    viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2194&p=5905&hilit=braze#p5905

    brazing the oil pump pick-up tube to the pump body after carefully checking clearances will usually prevent the oil pump pick-up from vibrating loose over time

    Ive always preferred stainless socket head cap screws, on the bolt on oil pump pick-ups with external bolts bottom plate bolts drilled for safety wire, or using LOCTITE on the threads
    bolt on oil pump pick-ups are subject to a lot of vibration so you safety wire the bolts, and us LOCTITE on the threads, and a brace bolted or welded to the pick-up won,t hurt

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    external locations need safety wire
    http://www.whizwheels.com/Tips/safetywiring.html

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    http://www.jegs.com/p/Milodon/Milodon-P ... 5/10002/-1

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    if your serious about having a bolt holding something like an accessory, STARTER, Alternator, or bracket or u-joint strap etc. remain securely fastened , theres two steps you can take to assure it won,t come loose unless you want it too
    step one
    use a clean, and well degreased bolt and threads, and apply a decent thread locker to the threads, then torque them to the intended torque
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    step two
    USE DRILLED SAFETY WIRE LOCKS
    viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4306&p=26502&hilit=safety+wire#p26502

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    if you use BOTH youll find bolts stay exactly where you left them

    http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=45341

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    http://www.fastenersuperstore.com/store ... tage=step3

    youll find these very helpful

    http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... word=allen

    http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=96645

    [​IMG]
    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1800&p=4597#p4597

    it may be hard to believe but your oil pump pick-up if unsupported vibrates and tends to work loose, so brazing it in place and use of a support strap tends to help, but its not a 100% cure, install the pick-up wrong or use the wrong support and they can still occasionally break, failures like this one below are frequently the result if tapping the oil pump pick up into place with the tip of a screwdriver on the ridge on the pick-up tube, with a hammer rather than using the correct tool
    [​IMG]

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    a few of MELLINGS THINNER CASTING OIL PUMPS have developed a reputation for occasionally failing when the cast body cracks
    http://www.aa1car.com/library/us1097.htm

    http://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manua ... tm#oil-low

    pick-ups like this one below are less likely to break due to better support

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    adding a brace and brazing it to the pick-up tube and use loc-tite on the bolt threads helps durability
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    [​IMG]

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64&p=12398#p12398

    If you have a drill press and welder its not at all difficult to fabricate a custom made oil pump pick-up security system brace from 16 ga sheet steel,or simply braze the pick-up to the pump and add one or more brace straps ,but measure and check carefully several times, especially if you have a custom made oil pan, just be sure to check clearances before doing more than tack welding the pick-up and braces because if what you fabricate looks great but won,t fit in your oil pan with the correct clearances your screwed.....yeah! don,t ask it was 40 plus years ago, but I still needed a new oil pump, after that screw up, so we all learn by forgetting to think and measure correctly at times
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    EXAMPLES

    http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/23621/10002/-1
    http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/23620/10002/-1


    in 40 plus years of building engines IVE NEVER seen a PROPERLY brazed and braced oil pump pick-up come loose, just remember to remove the spring and piston from the pressure regulating bye-pass and let the parts slowly air cool before lubricating and re-assembling the components.

    [​IMG]
    BRAZE ROD MELTS at well OVER 800F and done correctly has a tensile strength of 50,000 PLUS psi when used, on clean metal surfaces

    SHOP CAREFULLY , WHEN YOU GO TO BUY AN OIL PAN<AND ASK LOTS OF QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT WILL FIT YOUR CAR CORRECTLY AND ASK FOR SUGGESTIONS ON MATCHING COMPONENTS OR PARTS THAT WON,T FIT

    MILODON,
    http://www.milodon.com/

    CHAMP
    http://www.champpans.com/products/c/oil-pans/

    CANTON,
    https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/category/1501/Chevy-SS--Road-Race-Oil-Pans/1.html

    MOROSO
    http://www.moroso.com/

    AVIAID
    http://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbc.html


    STEFS
    http://www.stefs.com/products/oilpans/circletrackwetsump.htm


    HAMBURGERPERFORMANCE
    http://www.hamburgersperformance.com/

    KEVKO
    https://kevko.myshopify.com/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazing

    http://www.weldguru.com/braze-cast-iron.html
    [​IMG]
    http://www.richard-whitehouse.co.uk/soldering notes.pdf
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2018
  3. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member


    some related info you might want


    http://www.off-road.com/trucks4x4/artic ... ?id=264303

    http://www.ehow.com/how_4870148_install ... -pump.html

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1192&p=3397&hilit=+stud#p3397

    viewtopic.php?f=32&t=459

    http://www.ehow.com/how_4506329_replace ... vette.html

    http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

    http://www.corvette-restoration.com/res ... lation.htm


    [​IMG]
    Look closely at this picture its quite common for a non-brazed oil pump pick-up to vibrate loose over time until like this one has obviously done, if the oil pump pick-up rotates down until it touches the oil pan floor,it almost always causes oil pressure and flow to be reduced, thats bad because in restricts oil flow into the oil pump and tends to increase bearing wear rates,bu iit can get even worse, it may take months or even years but if it vibrates down to touch the oil pan floor, theres a good chance that it will eventually vibrate loose and fall out of the pump casting, thats why brazing the pick-up to the pump body and using a brace that bolts to the pump increases durability.
    the oil pump pick-up should remain parallel with the oil pan floor and at a distance of between 3/8" min to about 1/2" max to maintain maximum flow rates thru the oil pump
     
  4. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    have you ever dealt with anyone who has little or NO, experience with engines that asked you a strait question, and its very obvious that they just don,t understand the basics of how the system works?
    well awhile back I helped a guy install an aftermarket 7 quart oil pan and high volume oil pump, on his otherwise stock corvette,
    well he managed to over reve his engine and bust a push rod, we get that fixed and do a compression check, etc. and I suggest pulling the intake and if we don,t find the part we might need to pull the oil pan, because were missing a bit of the broken push rod, so he says," not to worry about it the oil filter will trap it if it makes its way down into the oil pan well before it reaches the oil pump"......I just stared at him for 30 seconds in total amazement
    now if he had shrapnel screens and magnets it would be nearly impossible for random bits of metallic debris to get sucked into the oil pump, and in theory yes theres a screen preventing that, but the factory screens are well known for coming loose.
    yes the chance of even a stock oil pump ingesting a bit of push-rod is low, but its also preventable so why take any chances
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    related threads

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4480&p=11782&hilit=shrapnel#p11782

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187&p=5890&hilit=shrapnel#p5890

    viewtopic.php?f=51&t=1458&p=3265&hilit=shrapnel#p3265

    http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=206

    http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4578&p=12188&hilit=+gasket+thick#p12188

    http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26

    http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=672&p=929#p929
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2015
  5. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    "Hey Grumpy,
    Great info. I have a standard sbc OF installed. I have also installed a Lokar flexible dipstick. According to the reading on the stick, the pan is full. Pan is a B+B Drag Race 7QT. I would "guess" total capacity is around 7.5 QTS with filter. Could I diagnose an oil pick-up height problem by adding a QT or so. In the reading, a low or restricted pick up height clearance would cause the same problem and cause cavitation?
    Thanks,
    "

    adding a quart will have little effect if the problem is the oil pump pick-up is too close to the oil pan floor, you need 3/8"-1/2 MINIMUM clearance, Id suggest verifying even if it required pulling the oil pan, but theres a simpler way, you can inspect thru the oil drain hole with the proper tool

    http://www.tooltopia.com/provision-pv618.aspx

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3194&p=9385&hilit=tool+inspect+scope#p9385
     
  6. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    this is one of the very commonly screwed up , during installation, parts !
    the most frequent way to screw it up is to install the stud incorrectly, too, do it correctly youll simply install the rear main , torque it in place and spin the oil pump mount stud in to the main cap AFTER FIRST degreasing the stud and main cap threads with a solvent like CARB OR THROTTLE BODY SPRAY then coating both the main caps female threads and the studs male (shorter coarser threads) with RED LOC-TITE, (HIGH STRENGTH)
    [​IMG]
    , you spin it in until it touches the back of the bearing shell then back it OUT at least one half too one full turn, install the pump, verify clearance, install the load bearing washer and thread on the retainer nut and tighten it down while you make sure the stud itself does NOT move further in, it must NOT touch the rear or the lower rear main bearing shell or it can potentially cause bearing wear issues or in extreme cases crank failure.
    use the BLUE medium strength thread loc-tite on the nut threads
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lct-37418
    [​IMG] (MEDIUM STRENGTH)
    http://www.qmuniforms.com/galls-sta...gclid=CPS5sJqMis4CFQERaQodvEkFeQ#.V5OnSfkrLcc
    many engine builders add a bit of extra insurance here by using a pointed punch to lock the upper nut to threads to the stud threads, in two or three locations to be absolutely sure the nut won,t back off under vibration
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...srese1-_-arp&gclid=CKGo4oeDis4CFZCLaQoduT4C-A

    [​IMG]
    mounting the oil pump to the rear main cap
    [​IMG]
    failure to use the correct oil pump,mounting stud, bolt or nut or carefully check clearances when mounting an oil pump can cause problems, AND THE HEIGHT OF THE MAIN CAPS AND OIL PUMP CASTINGS DO DIFFER, ESPECIALLY ON THE LATER BIG BLOCK VS THE EARLY BIG BLOCK COMPONENTS
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    BE 100% SURE that the oil pump bolt or STUD doesn,t protrude past the inner main cap surface , because if it bears on the rear main bearing shell it will almost always result in a quickly failed rear bearing[/b
    ONE RATHER COMMON MISTAKE IS USING THE WRONG OIL PUMP STUD OR BOLT TO MOUNT THE OIL PUMP AS IF EITHER EXTENDS THRU THE REAR MAIN CAP SURFACE, IT CAN AND WILL BIND ON THE BEARING SHELL BACK SURFACE AND CAN LOCK OR RESTRICT, SMOOTH CRANK ROTATION.
    STUDS ARE PREFERRED BECAUSE THEY GET THE THREADS THAT ENTER THE MAIN BEARING CAP COATED WITH THREAD LOCKER, LIQUID , THEN SCREWED IN TO THE MAIN CAP UNTIL THEY TOUCH THE BACK OF THE BEARING SHELL THEN BACKED OF 3/4 OF A TURN , THE OIL PUMP MOUNTED , AND THE WASHER AND FINE THREAD LOCKING NUT SECURED PER THE TORQUE SPECS.THIS INSURES THE STUD DOES NOT BEAR ON THE REAR BEARING SHELL , A BOLT WHEN TIGHTENED MUST BE TURNED DEEPER INTO THE THREADS IN THE REAR MAIN CAP, AND ITS MUCH HARDER TO PREVENT IT FROM BEARING OR CAUSING PRESSURE ON THE BACK OF THE BEARING SHELL IF ITS A BIT TOO LONG (A COMMON ISSUE, IN REBUILDS WHERE THE WRONG BOLTS USED.)


    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187&p=5890#p5890
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    ]yes the oil flows around the mounting stud,from oil pump to main cap to reach the engine oil passages, thru the oil filter
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    just keep in mind that you'll need to very carefully blend and smooth and carefully clean,the edges of the beveled area where the oil port feeds the bearing surface with some 600 grit sand paper so the oil flows well and theres no edges to cause bearing wear issues or crud left from the process that would get embedded in the bearings.

    [​IMG]

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-on-the-cheap-well-to-start.11739/#post-55481

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-an-oil-pump-pick-up-tube.1800/#post-43094
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2016
  7. 87vette81big

    87vette81big Guest

    I have never drilled & Roll pinned the Oil pump Drive gear to the shaft Grumpy.
    Is it something you only do yourself to SBC & BBC ??
    Or all popular V8 engines ?

    Only old HO Racing recomended doing the same.
    But they eliminated the intermediate oil pump driveshaft.
    Custom machined a long 11" one piece shaft.
    Pressed into the Melling M54 D Ram Air 4 60psi pump.
    And the Melling M54F Ram Air 5 & SD455 80Psi oil pump.
     
  8. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

     
  9. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2018
  10. 87vette81big

    87vette81big Guest

    No its not done to any Race engines here in Illinois.
    The idea has Merit.
    Must be an Old NASCAR Trick taught to You.
    My Pontiac Engines have 120-130 psi cold oil pressure at 2,600 RPM During warmup.
    Long duration cams used so I keep my foot oncthe gas steady to warmup for 1st 4-5 minutes.
    Hot pressure is 100psi.
    At 950Rpm idle 40-45 psi Hot.
    2,000 is 80psi.
    Casterole 10w30 oil.
    Melling M54F pump.
    Custom oiling mods of my own.
    Never slipped the Driven gear on the shaft yet.

    Ford 5.0 guys in Joliet Renegade have 140-150psi Hot.
    They turn insane RPMS. 8-9k.
    Must have they tell me to live.
     
  11. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    BE DAMN SURE THE OIL PUMP PICK-UP HAS A LARGER SCREEN SURFACE AREA

    anything entering the pump can damage the clearances and gears as debris passes through the oil pump BEFORE oil enters the oil filter , and magnets are useless on globs of sealant aluminum, plastic ,nylon and most gasket materials, and a singly valve keeper or loose bolt can seize the gears if it gets past the oil pump pick-up screen.
    SHRAPNEL SCREENS AND MAGNETS HELP

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    BE 100% SURE that the oil pump bolt or STUD doesn,t protrude past the inner main cap surface , because if it bears on the rear main bearing shell it will almost always result in a quickly failed rear bearing[/b
    ONE RATHER COMMON MISTAKE IS USING THE WRONG OIL PUMP STUD OR BOLT TO MOUNT THE OIL PUMP AS IF EITHER EXTENDS THRU THE REAR MAIN CAP SURFACE, IT CAN AND WILL BIND ON THE BEARING SHELL BACK SURFACE AND CAN LOCK OR RESTRICT, SMOOTH CRANK ROTATION.


    read the two linked threads below
    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/timing-chains-stretch.5734/#post-17492

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...oil-passages-and-improved-oil-flow-mods.3834/


    the stock oil pump pick-ups in many cases plug with debris easily ,
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    a sturdy well braced oil pump pick-up screen thats brazed in place is a huge improvement over the pressed in stock oil pump pick-up, but if you have some fabrication skills and a welder your certainly not limited to catalog parts alone.
    you CAN fabricate custom fitted parts
    [​IMG]
    yes you can (and probably should) take the time to fabricate a windage screen similar too the one shown in the link above,
    or in these link's
    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-mods-that-help.2187/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/building-a-custom-wet-sump-oil-pan.65/

    http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ScreenInstall.pdf

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTR-20-906/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/whats-a-windage-tray-do.64/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/custom-windage-tray.10490/

    http://www.colemanracing.com/Windage-Screen-P3831.aspx

    http://www.musclecardiy.com/performance/how-to-build-racing-engines-sumps-and-oiling/#

    http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-0603-oil-pan-design-windage-tech/
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  12. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    occasionally I get asked questions that I thought were rather obvious,
    but of course, if I generally have been doing something for 5 plus decades,
    I seem to forget many guys are totally new to the skills required
    I was asked "how one should braze an oil pump pick-up to an oil pump?"
    well step on is mounting the oil pump to the engine and carefully checking the oil pump pick-up clearance to the mounted oil pans inner floor ,
    your looking for a 3/8"-to-1/2" clearance between the two, look above, earlier in the thread, for details



    I posted this video, but he makes several MISTAKES in my opinion,
    first Id use a stud and thread it in untill it bottoms on the bearing in the rear main then back it out at least one full turn so your 100% sure its not touching the rear of the bearing shell.and use loc tite on the threads of the stud, Id also use a washer under the nut on the stud and loc tite on those threads, and Id damn sure USE a lump of clay to verify the oil pump pick-up to oil pan floor clearance. before brazing not welding the pumps pick-up in place.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    BE 100% SURE that the oil pump bolt or STUD doesn,t protrude past the inner main cap surface , because if it bears on the rear main bearing shell it will almost always result in a quickly failed rear bearing[/b
    ONE RATHER COMMON MISTAKE IS USING THE WRONG OIL PUMP STUD OR BOLT TO MOUNT THE OIL PUMP AS IF EITHER EXTENDS THRU THE REAR MAIN CAP SURFACE, IT CAN AND WILL BIND ON THE BEARING SHELL BACK SURFACE AND CAN LOCK OR RESTRICT, SMOOTH CRANK ROTATION.
    STUDS ARE PREFERRED BECAUSE THEY GET THE THREADS THAT ENTER THE MAIN BEARING CAP COATED WITH THREAD LOCKER, LIQUID , THEN SCREWED IN TO THE MAIN CAP UNTIL THEY TOUCH THE BACK OF THE BEARING SHELL THEN BACKED OF 3/4 OF A TURN , THE OIL PUMP MOUNTED , AND THE WASHER AND FINE THREAD LOCKING NUT SECURED PER THE TORQUE SPECS.THIS INSURES THE STUD DOES NOT BEAR ON THE REAR BEARING SHELL , A BOLT WHEN TIGHTENED MUST BE TURNED DEEPER INTO THE THREADS IN THE REAR MAIN CAP, AND ITS MUCH HARDER TO PREVENT IT FROM BEARING OR CAUSING PRESSURE ON THE BACK OF THE BEARING SHELL IF ITS A BIT TOO LONG (A COMMON ISSUE, IN REBUILDS WHERE THE WRONG BOLTS USED.)

    [​IMG]
    clean and de-grease the oil pump body and oil pump pick-up, remember the pressure relief spring must be temporarily removed,
    during the brazing process, you'll want to carefully measure the mounting angle and oil pan floor to pick-up clearance before brazing it in place, of the pick-up to oil pump,
    remember the oil pump pick-up extends into the oil pump body on the BBC oil pump and in a few cases can extend in deep enough to jam the impeller gears, on the sbc the pick-up is in the oil pump cover so thats not an issue/ once you have the alignment? clearance correct it can be brazed in place, an acetylene torch is better than propane
    coated braze rods are for electric welders you want un-coated for a torch braze job,

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/0-1-x-18...2587&wl11=online&wl12=901083132&wl13=&veh=sem

    [​IMG]

    https://www.airgas.com/product/Welding-Products/Filler-Metal/Solder/Silver---Soldering-&-Brazing/p/HAR15620F1
    you simply heat the area at the joint and keep dabbing the braze rod until it flowing into the joint, work it around the circumference until molten brazed copper flows into the joint and the edges feather seal, then let the pump slowly air cool don,t spray it with water, or dunk it.
    that could crack the joint or pump case or lid.

    SBC OIL PUMP WITH 4 COVER BOLTS IN LID AND PICK-UP IN LID COVER
    [​IMG]

    the standard big block chevy oil pump has a 3/4" oil pump pick-up that is inserted in the main pump body, NOT THE 5 BOLT LOWER COVER
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    your typical small block oil pump has a 4 bolt cover, a 5/8" pick-up tube diameter and the pick-up presses into the cover , it has the smaller 7 tooth gears, and because the pick-up tube presses into the cover swapping from a standard to a high volume pump, with its longer impeller and hoseing casting, tends to move the pick-up about 1/4" closer to the oil pan floor
    [​IMG]
    your typical big block oil pump has a 5 bolt cover, a 3/4" pick-up tube diameter and the pick-up presses into the pump body , it has the larger more efficient 12 tooth gears and in many cases can be mounted on a small block, but its usually not required

    use the correct tool to seat the oil pump pick-up using a wrench and hammer often distorts the tube

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-mcat-75

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-mcat-62

    [​IMG]

    BIG BLOCK CHEVY 5 BOLT cover pump
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  13. Ernest Shaw

    Ernest Shaw Retired machinist

    When you use clay to check the gap to the bottom of the pan how do you keep it from moving into or through the screen? Also, why couldn't a person use safety wire to secure the pickup to the pump?
     
  14. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    clay can easily be prevented from getting into a pick-up with a piece of duct tape temporarily placed between the screen and clay
    early in the thread info posted above, I posted info on various braces and safety wire, roll pins, that add security but brazing is still preferred on pick-up retention
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
  15. Ernest Shaw

    Ernest Shaw Retired machinist

    Thanks for the tape tip, that's a good idea I'll use in the future. Next question, how does one adjust the depth of the pickup if it's out of tolerance? Do you have to refab the bottom of the pan????
     
  16. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    one more advantage to brazing over welding, you can re-melt braze,
    and adjust the pick-up then re-braze without damaging the pump or pick-up components


    [​IMG]
    (remember to remove the bye-pass spring & piston, from the pump if brazing,
    then re-install after oiling the pump and bye-pas parts correctly checking clearances,
    oil oil pump internal parts well once the parts cool to room temps.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
  17. chasracer

    chasracer New Member

    I suggest that brazing or welding the pickup to the pump is not as fool proof as many people believe. I have pulled apart a number of performance engines and it is not uncommon to find the welded portion of the pickup tube still held in place on the pump - just the way it was intended. The only problem is that about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch from that spot the pickup tube is broken in half which resulted in a loss of oil pressure and damaged bearings along with crank throws. I now prefer to weld multiple braces to the pickup tube and use the oil pump cap attachment points to secure the pickup tube in place. And yes I have even seen one of these installations break one of the braces but not both - this was in a BBC powered jet boat.
     
  18. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    yes thats a very valid concern, any time you allow an unsupported section of the oil pump pick-up to not have a welded or properly bolted external support bracing,
    you can almost depend on constant flexing to eventually cause durability issues.
    a good many engines benefit from having a bolt on external brace to the engines windage screen, if you think in three dimensions vs just two this can be done rather easily.

    https://www.chevydiy.com/chevy-big-block-performance-lubrication-system-guide/

    https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/engine/useful-tips-installing-oil-pans-right-way/

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    one more in an ENDLESS LIST of reasons any serious shop needs to have access to a decent welder (A OXY-ACETYLENE TORCH in this case) a drill press and a dial caliper could allow you to fabricate a $1 l-bracket that could easily be the difference between a $10-$15K engine living a long trouble free life vs a very expensive self destructing engine , lesson in why adding a $1 brace would be almost mandatory

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018

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