is reality a problem for you in selecting between, new vs traditional?

Discussion in 'rifle related' started by Grumpy, Oct 8, 2018.

  1. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    one of the local guys stopped by this A.M. to show me his new toy!
    hes been saving up and doing the research required to find what he considered to be the most accurate rifle he could find and afford, as his best choice in a new elk hunting rifle.
    now he decided after reading several dozen magazines that the only logical choice he had was to select a new tactical style sniping rifle in caliber 6.5 mm creedmoor....,
    now I'd be the last guy to suggest anyone not purchase a new rifle if that purchase made them feel better or more confident,
    but maybe its my engineering back ground and being an old traditional geezer with decades of experience, that just seems to be getting in the way of my desire or acceptance of the purchase of the newest options on sale.
    I also tend to be rather amazed at the number of guys who think cartridges like the 6.5mm creedmoor provide a quantum leap in performance ,
    over well known and well respected cartridges like the 300 wby mag, and 340 wby mag, that are at least 60 years old designs
    being a 60 year old design does not infer its out- dated or no longer effective.
    nor does the fact , its marketed as NEW and IMPROVED make it more effective, the
    6.5MM Swedish Mauser was available with similar ballistics and was killing Russian soldiers since well before WWII,as it was a standard before the year, 1900


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Mauser

    https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/6.5x55.html

    He was absolutely convinced that his new toy was a kick butt absolutely great 1000 yard elk hammer!
    I kind of reluctantly,
    burst his mental bubble pointing out a bit of physics and reality

    experience has shown me and most of the guys I hunt with,
    that you just don,t see many elk out past 400 yards or so,
    in the field, but even if you do, its, as always precise, shot placement on the elks vital organs, and the realization that youll seldom have much time to make the shot , nor get the elk to provide the ideal shot angle .
    or know the exact range to the target, and the need for penetration and delivered energy on the target at impact thats going to be the major factors in dropping any elk.
    (most experienced hunters will generally suggest you need to have about 1500 ft lbs minimum energy to get the required penetration. from an odd angle and un-known range.
    a bit of math shows the 6.5 creedmoor has the required energy too bust shoulders and drop an elk out to a bit over 400 yards. and at 400 yards its about 12 inches low with a 300 yard zero.


    https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/
    using math helps
    I generally love to spend time at the range and I certainly am in favor of lots of practice to maximize familiarity, theres no question recoil levels will be much less and the cost of reloading components will be lower, with the 6.5 mm creed-moor,
    but I don,t think its going to be anywhere near as effective as a 300 , 338, or 340 mag rifle on any elk hunt
    As with any rifle you might want to hunt with.
    Id also suggest working with handloads.
    if we select a 142-145 grain projectile in the 6.5mm creedmore as about the average projectile weight ,
    and push it to , lets be generous and say 2700 fps ,
    and assume a consistent 1" 100 yard group, and we set the zero at 300 yards.
    [​IMG]
    https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/performance-center-tc-lrr-flat-dark-earth-65-creedmoor

    [​IMG]

    https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2017/01/09/sierra-bullets-6-5-creedmoor-load-data/

    https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2018/1/29/65-creedmoor-handloading-tips-tricks/
    https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/

    https://www.speer-ammo.com/bullets/rifle-bullets/hot-cor-rifle-bullets/264/264-140-sptz-hcsp-bullet

    https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/1742/264-dia-65mm-142-gr-HPBT



    now lets for giggles compare that to my old school 340 weatherby and use a decent ballistically effective bullet.
    lets select the 270 grain hornady bullet in .338 caliber. in my 340 wby.
    with the same zero we find the larger cartridge retains the energy of 1500 ft lbs out to past 1000 yards, and effectively maintains a rather similar trajectory out past about 700 yards, where the 340 wbys heavier projectile still retains a great deal more energy and past that range theres no comparing either trajectory or impact energy retained.
    https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/338-cal-.338-270-gr-eld-x#!/
    [​IMG]


    http://armusa.com/WeatherbyRifles12.htm
    [​IMG]

    http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=340 Wby. Mag.&Source=&Type=rifle

    http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=300 Weatherby mag.&Weight=All&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=

    yeah theres a big difference in recoil, but rather surprisingly both rifles are rather heavy and with a scope , that will allow accurate shot placement out at longer ranges,
    (lets say this one)

    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...e-scope-30mm-tube-4-16x-50mm-side-focus-matte

    and a bi-pod and sling both rifles weight in at about 12 lbs
    yes the new tactical rifle looks to be rather new and interesting....
    but I think Id stay with the same 340 weatherby Ive used for 5 decades and simply take advantage of the improved bullets available, if Id selected the 300 wby or 30/378 I could flatten the trajectory and gain a bit extra range but because I doubt Id see any elk past 400 yards I don,t think running out to buy a new rifle for well over $1200-$1800 is in my future investments,
    I also have some doubts about carrying a rifle with a metallic stock in sub-zero temperatures either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018

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