MSD 6AL-2 Programmable Box, info needed

legerwn

legerwn

Active Member
A component of my ignition has failed and I suspect it is my 6AL box (more testing to come).

I like the options with the Programmable box as in the ability to program the advance tables along with other options.

I've asked some questions on the MSD web forum but not all are getting answered so before I call I thought I would try hear first.

Anyone here have any experience with the Pro-Data Software used with this box and setting the dissy up for use with this box. It looks as if the box only retards timing so do I set the Dissy at max timing and then let the box retard to the settings as input into the software?

The box has a MAP sensor plug but does not say anything about it having a 5volt supply for the sensor.

Do I need a phasing cap for my MSD E-Curve Dissy to work with this box?

If I want to run 36* advance with 12* vacuum advance do I set the dissy at 48* lock down and then set the tables to the curves I want (start retard to 700 rpm, idle set to 20* then up to 36* by 2500 rpm, then start the vacuum advance at 16" and all in by 20") (still researching best timing curves, the possibilities are endless with this box).

Thanks for any help,

Neal :D
 
The Guy here to help you is Dorien.
He is on 2-weeks vacation playing save the world from luberals & Bam Bam .

I don't like anything MSD Myself.
Mallory has programable Ignition boxes.
Available ling before MSD. Made in USA. 100% Reliable.

Seen lots of MSD 6AL-2 Programable ignition boxes fail in 5.0 Stang world.
All those guys now hate them
 
legerwn said:
Thanks I'll look at the mallory boxes also,

Is MSD American made????

Neal
Click to expand...
It is or was.
Speculation for years. None fully confirmed .
Chuna the rumour .
 
read these links

http://bangshift.com/general-news/spons ... vs-a-fake/

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2013 ... ankruptcy/

http://www.hotrod.com/feature_stories/1 ... _products/

programmable ignition advance curves

http://www.msdignition.com/exe/setup_prodata319.exe

youll need a #6530 control box http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-6530 $366
msd-6530_w.jpg

a #8570 distributor http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8570 $266
msd-8570_w.jpg

A # 8253 coil http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8253 $186
msd-8253_ml.jpg



http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Tech/the- ... boxes.html

http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Ign ... 6AL-2.aspx

http://www.ignitioninfo.com/

http://www.msdignition.com/WorkArea/Dow ... 5032386168

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-6530

http://static.summitracing.com/global/i ... m28932.pdf

MSD is bringing their pro stock ignition technology to the street with their new Programmable 6AL-2! Since every NHRA Pro Stock car uses a Programmable Digital-7 Ignition Control, it was only a matter of time until MSD brought that technology to the street – and the time is now!


The new ignition, Part Number 6530, is based on the same output as the 6AL-2, but rather than rotary dials for rpm adjustments it sports a serial port that connects to a PC. Once you load MSD’s Windows based software on your PC, you’re ready to start mapping and programming. To start, you can get rid of the weights and springs that control the mechanical advance of your distributor. Go ahead and lock it out because you can now create a timing curve that allows you to manipulate the timing down to tenth of a degree increments every 100 rpm. The advantage is precise timing control, with the ability to ramp the timing in or retard it at exactly the rpm that you want it to move. Want more timing out for a start retard? Simply click the mouse and move a couple dots in position. Like a high speed retard? Clickity-click!


Another great feature is for the forced induction fans. The ignition features a timing curve based on boost so you can map out a timing curve based on boost pressure. The feature that most street guys will dig is the ability to pull timing out during the holeshot – and ramp it back in. Since many cars have more power than traction capabilities, being able to soften the power at the holeshot can help reduce the tire shredding off the line.


There are also three different rpm limits that can be set in 100-rpm increments; one for the burnout, one for the holeshot and of course a top end limit for overrev protection. If you have a nitrous shot you like to blast off now and then, the ignition has an activation wire that you tie into the nitrous wiring. When the nitrous is activate, the timing can be retarded instantly!
 
Read through those posts Grumpy thanks for the info,

got a little family thing over the next couple days, plan to start trouble shooting after that.

Need to pinpoint what failed then go from there.

Maybe Dorien will step in while I'm trouble shooting,

Neal
 
legerwn said:
A component of my ignition has failed and I suspect it is my 6AL box (more testing to come).

I like the options with the Programmable box as in the ability to program the advance tables along with other options.

I've asked some questions on the MSD web forum but not all are getting answered so before I call I thought I would try hear first.

Anyone here have any experience with the Pro-Data Software used with this box and setting the dissy up for use with this box. It looks as if the box only retards timing so do I set the Dissy at max timing and then let the box retard to the settings as input into the software?

The box has a MAP sensor plug but does not say anything about it having a 5volt supply for the sensor.

Do I need a phasing cap for my MSD E-Curve Dissy to work with this box?

If I want to run 36* advance with 12* vacuum advance do I set the dissy at 48* lock down and then set the tables to the curves I want (start retard to 700 rpm, idle set to 20* then up to 36* by 2500 rpm, then start the vacuum advance at 16" and all in by 20") (still researching best timing curves, the possibilities are endless with this box).

Thanks for any help,

Neal :D
Click to expand...

Yes, the box only retards the timing. So you need to calculate what your total timing will be and "reverse plot" the curve. straight forward enough once you get the hang of it. So you stab the distributor in "all-in" and subtract from there.

The optional MAP sensor plugs into a three-pin socket… no extra wiring needed.

I do like that you can program so many different things and change the distributor curve in seconds.

You DO need a laptop with a serial output - I bought one used for $50 and only use it for my MSDs :mrgreen:

The box is compatible with most triggers but make sure to check wiring with both trigger manufacturer and MSD. There are several different wiring option depending. I had to adapt mine for the trigger I was using. The MSD 6AL-2 is more flexible than the original MSD 6 regarding triggers.

I also really like that I can program RPMs for staging, burnouts (on the line lock), rev limit, safety retard trigger and boost retard… All on a laptop.
 
You can also see what is going on live on the laptop with engine running.
 
To test the ignition box tap the trigger wires together and see if the LED (I like that too) flashes each time. I think the wires you need to tap together are green and violet.
 
DorianL; the best I can tell is 25* is the max the box will pull out?

The MSD tech said I could use the boost retard map to set a vacuum advance table, have you tried this?

If the box will only pull 25* then I'm not sure I can have much of a vacuum advance curve, if I start with 36* electronic and 15* vacuum that's 51* total and if the box will only pull 25* that leaves 26* initial, not sure how the starter will handle that. Wont know until I try it to see if the starter can handle 25* advance at start up.

thanks Neal :D
 
Yes, I have used the boost retard for vac advance. You need to make sure you get the right MAP sensor. One goes from "total" vacuum up to ambient air pressure; as it measures absolute air pressure you can use that to program only vacc advance. The other goes up to two bars - 14.7 PSI (?) over ambient air pressure and can be configured to do both vacuum advance and boost retard.

Yes, there is a limit to what you can pull out… but I thought it was 40

Remember that if you never run less than say 10 degrees initial…then you'll never have to take out more than total minus ten degrees.

I believe you can also program it to take out advance while cranking. I simply told it to take out advance at anything under 500 rpm… this allows it to "spin up"

I'll have to check my box, but I only get back from the Farnborough Air Show (job related) this weekend.

I think I also considered that the engine would never see vacuum at mechanical all in. I suppose it depends on where you set all in mechanical. At 3000 rpm, how often do you get vacuum? I run 6 degrees of vacuum with 16 initial and get a very good throttle response. I read somewhere that 8-10 vacuum + more initial gives crisper response. I found that to be true. I shoot for 22 at idle: initial + vacuum… and again it "likes" 22 at idle and with laptop I can tinker around with both initial and vacuum

The beauty of the system is you can tweak things on the fly.
 
DorianL said:
Yes, I have used the boost retard for vac advance. You need to make sure you get the right MAP sensor. One goes from "total" vacuum up to ambient air pressure; as it measures absolute air pressure you can use that to program only vacc advance. The other goes up to two bars - 14.7 PSI (?) over ambient air pressure and can be configured to do both vacuum advance and boost retard.

Yes, there is a limit to what you can pull out… but I thought it was 40

Remember that if you never run less than say 10 degrees initial…then you'll never have to take out more than total minus ten degrees.

I believe you can also program it to take out advance while cranking. I simply told it to take out advance at anything under 500 rpm… this allows it to "spin up"

I'll have to check my box, but I only get back from the Farnborough Air Show (job related) this weekend.

I think I also considered that the engine would never see vacuum at mechanical all in. I suppose it depends on where you set all in mechanical. At 3000 rpm, how often do you get vacuum? I run 6 degrees of vacuum with 16 initial and get a very good throttle response. I read somewhere that 8-10 vacuum + more initial gives crisper response. I found that to be true. I shoot for 22 at idle: initial + vacuum… and again it "likes" 22 at idle and with laptop I can tinker around with both initial and vacuum

The beauty of the system is you can tweak things on the fly.
Click to expand...

Mine likes 20* plus at idle also, just not sure how the starter will like. I run the MSD E-Curve Dissy so I have the start retard pull down to around 12* initial.

with the e-curve I don't have the option to set a vacuum advance that will work, the vacuum advance starts at such a low vacuum that it pulls in while starting and causes kick back. I need to be able to set the vacuum advance to come in at around 10" so the engine will start prior to the advance coming in. I need to be able to play with the advance to see what works for my car.

I didn't realize that you could monitor the timing with the laptop while driving, that's a great feature. I wounder what type of output the box has to the laptop, i have the LM1 and have been logging RPM, TPS, MAP, AFR with narrow and wide band sensors and to some extent air flow through the radiator. It would be great if I could use the output to the laptop to log timing with my LM1.

prior to the OD tranny I ran 3500 rpm on the interstate at 70 mph, now I run in the area of 2500 rpm. cruising around I'm in the 2100 to 2500 rpm and with the total timing all in by around 2500 I will be at 36* at cruise and I plan on adding vacuum advance starting in the 10" area and all in around 18". This will put all advance in at around 2200 to 2500 rpm, that's 50* timing in at cruise rpm.

Thanks for all the help,

Neal :D
 
Verified rotor to cap phasing and surprisingly all looked good with 46* timing.

I set the E-Curve up with 46* total with vacuum (10* vacuum advance starting at 4" and all in at 10", 16* initial and 20* electronic).

Going to try and take a drive in the morning and see if I can get it to repeat the dieing out as it was doing the other day. If so I'm going to disconnect the 6AL and run it on the dissy only and see if it will do it then. This will eliminate the 6AL and get the issue isolated to the dissy or the coil.

anyone using the CD1-Pro ignition by Daytona Sensors(sold at 4secondsflat.com).

Neal :D
 
Not much progress to this point, been working a good bit

I did bypass the 6AL box and the problem seems to be a little better but still there

Next step is to pull plugs and give them a good once over and ohm the wires to see if anything shows up.

Neal :)
 
I was running a cheap ProComp coil so I decided to replace it with an MSD HVC-II coil (MSD 8253), I'm still going to replace the 6AL box with the Programmable box just got to order it and get it installed.

I've been tuning the Holley and I think I may have found my main issue, a lean cylinder I think. I was running a little to lean for this engine and ignition combo. It didn't really show up until I added the vacuum advance.

While pulling plugs I removed the #3 plug wire and pulled the plug end connector off. These are ceramic boot plug wires so ended up having to order a replacement wire. (If it can go wrong it will).

I've got it back on the road and it appears to be fine now,

still got to get the carb dialed in

Neal :)
 
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