rifle choice if starting over

[grumpyvette]

I got asked if you were forced to start from scratch ,to buy a single hunting rifle , for all your hunting , what would you select, I can tell you after 45 plus years of hunting deer and elk, almost any decent 270 win-375 h&h will get the job done, a 450 marlin caliber Browning BLR would be a very effective choice, in most areas, and yes its best at under 250 yards range, but Id bet 80% plus of all big game is shot at under 250 yards. its more about the skill of the guy who uses it than the head stamp on the cartridge case. knowing what I know now
I could have saved WHEEL BARROWS full of cash by purchasing a 450 marlin caliber browning BLR for short to moderate range and a 340 WBY or 375 H&H caliber synthetic stocked stainless bolt action for general use on elk hunts and sticking to the two for all my hunting,
and if limited to just one a a 340 WBY or 375 H&H caliber synthetic stocked stainless bolt action for general use works everywhere on almost everything
once you have total confidence in the rifle you carry its makes little sense to keep trying new stuff the money and times better spent else ware but it took me decades to fully appreciate that fact
yet, when thinking about that for a few seconds the answers came fairly fast, but keep in mind I,m referring here to hunting ELK and deer, not small game, and in the last 43 plus years of hunting deer and elk I could probably count ALL the chances Ive seen to take a shot at the deer and elk Ive seen during hunting season at over 350 yards on one hand, so I see the need for a rifle that reaches out past 400 yards effectively as very low on my list of requirements. a rifles just a tool used by the hunter and we all develop favorites or characteristics we prefer. but its the hunters skill and experience ,not the rifle to a large extent that will determine your success. a good hunter could use a 257 roberts or a 458 win, and the results would be similar for the kind of hunting Ive done for the past 43 plus years,I could and most likely will hunt deer and elk the rest of my life with the same 340 wby, or 375 H&H , I've used for decades, on most hunts, with zero issues,
but I doubt the result would change if I grabbed a 450 marlin, 358 win or 270 win. or 25/06 as I headed out the door,
its not the rifles, or caliber as much as the skill and experience of the guy using it that counts.

heres good advise
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?ad ... g.firearms

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... stic_Black

use of a cartridge holder is frequently a good idea
you may not agree with my choices and thats fine, and I will freely admit could use something like a BLR in caliber 30/06 with a 200 grain speer bullet , with good results,and have done that before, so theres no need to get exotic or use the heavier calibers I prefer. any of the three rifles and calibers mentioned woulds suit me just fine and all the loads listed will produce under 1.5" groups at 100 yards in those rifles in my experience
no question,after thinking about it a bit two other choices also come to mind rather quickly, and you might be surprised because the remington slide actions hardly exotic or all that expensive or overly accurate, but either rifle is fully functional.
ID most likely buy either a rem 7600 in 35 whelen,a browning BLR in 358 win,
250 speer bullet,44 grains of imr 4064 and a 215 fed primer has been my standard 358 win load in my blr AND THE SAME LOAD IVE LOADED FOR THE 4 OTHER GUYS I KNOW WHO USE 358 WIN BLR CARBINES
sight in 3.5" high at 100 yards puts it almost dead on at 200 yards and about 1" low at 300 yards, thats been an effective combo for DECADES
or a SAKO 375 H&H carbine,if I was starting over but the 30/06 BLR is also a good choice here, as either rifle does nothing really perfectly, but both do damn near every type of hunting I do fairly well .
it would be hard to choose between any of the three of them but the rifles or the SAKO carbine would most likely get the nod and a top quality 2x7x scope with a heavy duplex cross hair reticule would be the next purchase
http://www.remington.com/products/firea ... ibers.aspx
I still use my 35 whelen 7600 pump action,and 450 marlin blr

when I started hunting ELK back in the late 1960s I was told by the more experienced old geezers that the "best elk rifle ever made, is the remington 760 in caliber 30/06)I bought one and had good results, but was not overly impressed, even thought the first two elk I shot died quickly from a single shot, each.
a few years later and having gained a good deal more experience I purchased a 7600 in 35 wheelen and loaded it with speer 250 gain bullets over a stiff charged of IMR 4320.
by that time I had realized that the fairly light weight, easy handling and ability to have a fast second shot available were all assets worth having.
If your not getting good accuracy from a remington slide action in 35 whelen caliber,before you give up on the slide action remington, Id suggest carefully cleaning the bore and chamber to remove all copper fouling and use of SPEER 250 grain bullets, used with a 215 fed primer, in handloads with those bullets seated out to max cartridge length that the rifle functions correctly with, over 55 grains of H4320 its been a dependable combo for decades in all the slide action remington 35 whelens in our elk camp.
remington rifles need to have carefully cleaned rifling to function at best accuracy.
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000212453
I know several guys who have found the lighter 180-220 grain bullets were less than impressive for accuracy and a fouled bore made things noticeably worse, a good ammonia base bore cleaner and a good bore brush and linen patches can do wonders for accuracy
you need to push those 250 speers out at near 2300fps-2400fps minimum velocity to get best accuracy

Ive owned and hunted with a sako manlicher carbine in caliber 375 H&H for 35 plus years, mine looks very similar to this but mines darker walnut wood.
be aware the wood forward of the barrel band needs to be epoxy bedded to the main stock or it will move forward under repeat recoil.
I cut two parallel grooves inside my front stock extending about 3" in both directions and carefully fitted two 6" long 3/16" thread rods and bedding epoxy, into the grooves, this cured that issue.
if you had a chance to buy a carbine like that Id say jump on it , I paid nearly $1000 for mine decades ago.
and yes both bullet weights work but the 270 grains seem to work better

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... le&Source=
Ive found both 235grain and 270 grain bullets and WW760 with a 215 fed primer works well as an elk hunting load

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000212471

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000212472

now the bullet does all the work and with a 35 whelen I don,t see any need for anything but the 250 grain speer bullet loaded to 2500 fps which can be done with 55 grains of imr 4320 and a 215 federal primer, in my rifle

on the 375 H&H Id be using a 270 grain speer or hornady loaded over a stiff charge of 77 grains of WW760 and a 215 federal primer.
with a 30/06 56.5 grains of H4831 and a 215 federal primer under a 200 grain speer bullet gets the nod.
you'll most likely notice I prefer a heavy bullet, in my hunting rifles, thats because Ive consistently found they work, well, and a single well placed hit drops game, I,ve seen too many guys who thought high velocity, magnum energy levels and flat trajectory was required, but in my experience a heavy bullet launched at about 2500fps-2700fps has given the best results, and while I have zero problem using a 340 wby with a 250 grain bullet at 2900 fps, its a heavy rifle thats power is seldom required. and its not as easy to carry around in steep canyons.
you could flip a coin to select the best choice, of the three, the BLR 30/06 is certainly the cheapest to feed and the sakos obviously the most expensive to buy and get ammo for , but they all have advantages and faults.
now many of you guys may remember I hunt mostly with a 340 wby fibermark rifle, and while that rifles proven to be excellent in most respects its fairly heavy and a bit longer than ideal, what you get for the extra barrel length and power is the ability to reach out easily past 500 yards and knock the crap out of anything you hit, yes thats impressive, but Ive seldom needed the range, or power, but yes its nice knowing its there to use.. the powers nice and the 375 H&H sako carbine listed above retains much of the power while remaining rather handy in size and weight.
any of the rifles will work but having the larger and heavier projectiles seems to be an advantage from the results Ive seen over the years.


http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... le&Source=

http://www.reloadammo.com/35whelenload.htm

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

making a shot also varies a great deal with conditions terrain and lighting,
while I practice out too 500 yards every chance I get, I vastly prefer taking shots while sitting and use of a bi-pod and sling,
most Of the elk and deer I've shot were taken at ranges under 300 yards, simply because the areas I hunt,
tend to be thicker aspen and conifer and rather steep narrow canyons
leaning on a tree, trunk, or over a blow down,
and / or use of that bi-pod and sling with the rifle,are very common, in my experience.
if you walk one slope of some canyon watching the far slope your potential shot ranges rarely exceed 300 yards due to terrain limitations.
that and the fact you can,t see due to the aspen and conifer growth and elk not being stupid enough to wonder out into open areas during the daylight

pictures like these are much more common in my experience than open fields you occasionally see in magazines of elk pictures posted

trust me when I tell you being in good physical shape and having the endurance to get into and out of the canyons will be more important that the rifle or its caliber, and in most cases you'll spend days between opportunity,s to shoot and ranges of less than 100 yards are common

 

[grumpyvette]

I just got a call from jack talking about this very question, and he was thinking of buying a new rifle for this years elk hunting trip. I provided a link to this thread, he read thru it and stated, that he would concentrate on jogging and better boots because after reading thru this thread he had to agree, there was absolutely nothing wrong with either his old elk hunting rifle or his spare elk rifle he bought several years ago. and besides he has a nice CZ 9.3mm carbine he wants to try and after reading that post, he had to agree, hes never even had one single opportunity to shoot any elk past 200 yards, in the last 12 years hes hunted.

honestly I constantly hear guys debating the merits of long range flat shooting rifles and in the last 40 years Id bet Ive had the opportunity to shoot game at over 250 yards less than 5-6 times.
for about 20 years I hunted deer with a marlin 444,one of my elk hunting camp friends bought a marlin 444 to camp one year , it was one of the early models with the longer barrel and cheek piece stock,I loved the rifles looks and the way it shot,so I bought one that year, I think it was 1965, a few years later hornady started making the 265 grain bullets available for hand loading

btw the load we found worked the best on elk in those marlin 444 rifles was the hornady 265 grain bullet over 45 grains of imr 4198 and a 215 fed primer, at about 2100fps and resulting 1" 100 yard groups

I think they were only available that way for a couple years before the barrels were shortened and the stock was changed.
I stupidly sold it when a friend offered me more than I paid for it brand new,after 20 years of use.
but after I purchased a BLR in 450 marlin Im even happier with that,rifle throwing a 405 grain bullet at about 1800fps and 1" groups, with a load of 50 grains of imr 3031 powder over a 215 fed primer I still use my 35 whelen 7600 pump action,and 450 marlin blr

while that may seem like a huge handicap, the truth is that its fully capable of decking elk at 300 yards and ID bet Ill rarely if ever need to take shots past 200 yards

yes its true I use a 340 wby or a 375 h&h for most of my hunts out west,if I don,t know the area, to be hunted, but if its timber, Ill grab a good heavy caliber lever gun most times, its not primarily due to the flatter trajectory the 340wby or 375 H&H provide , that they provide, (THAT potential extra range DOESN,T HURT, but it will seldom be used) but its not the advantage most guys might lead you to believe it to be., but the fast second shot and larger caliber and greater mass of a 405 grain 45 caliber slug gets good results if placed correctly that seem a bit more impressive than the smaller calibers in my experience, and if nothing else it boosts my
confidence while in my hands

the 250 hornady in .338 at about 2600 fps
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.a ... er&Source=
or 340 wby at about 2800 fps
the 250 speer used in the 358 win at about 2300 fps and 35 whelen at about 2500 fps


the 270 hornady in a 375 H&H at about 2500 fps
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.a ... er&Source=

the 405 remington in a 45/70 at about 1800 fps
the

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
I found this bullet to be especially accurate in my marlin 45/70 over 45 grains oF IMR 4198, Im not sure what velocity its near 1900 fps youll get in your rifle but cast from 95% wheel weights and 5% tin,well lubed its accurate,and it shoots thru deer,hogs and elk real well with expected results..very dead game
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.a ... er&Source=
In my opinion, if you have years of success, using some favorite rifle and cartridge,
it makes no logical sense in my opinion to run out and purchase the latest firearm or cartridge being promoted.
if you've seen as much game dropped very effectively with a wide variety of rifles and calibers as I have over decades it becomes obvious that anything from a 257 roberts up to a 458 win gets the job done in experienced hands, its just not that hard to kill deer and elk, if you know the games anatomy, your rifles trajectory and if you can hit exactly where you want too.
theres little doubt that some choices have more power and longer range advantages over others , but that does not make a skilled and experienced rifleman less effective with his choice of rifle and cartridge if hes willing to work within the limitations his rifle/cartridge choice has.
personally I prefer a 340 wby with a 250 grain bullet or a 375 h&h with a 270 grain bullet,(decades of success, and no failures, make those personal favorites) but I would grab a 270 win with a premium 150 grain and have zero worries.
my late hunting partner RON,used a browning BLR in 358 win, and though I was insane, he referred to my rifles as "CANNONS" the odd thing was we both were regularly successful , beating the state 20% average hunter success in our group regularly.
one other rather successful member AL,has a 6.5mm Swedish mauser , its got a long successful record also and FRANK prefers a 308 win with 200 grain speer bullets
its not the rifle its the experience and the skill and tenacity of the guy holding that rifle that maters more.

I can,t remember any elk running more than a few dozen yards after being hit in those indicated locations,
(yes a bit higher bullet impact point,work's just as well, if the major arteries are destroyed)
but Id point out I have generally used a 340 wby or 375 H&H.
one reason I trust those rifles is I have never yet seen a good hit not get a very obvious reaction and quick results..
and I generally don't take shots over about 300 yards simply because I don,t shoot until,
I'M 99% certain of placing the shot exactly where intended
and that generally means a good solid seated position with a sling if the range is much over 80 yards,
(yes I've had tag soup some years rather than attempt a bad iffy shot)

cal .338 hornady 250 grain
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/767308 ... box-of-100

cal .358 .speer 250 grain
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000212453

cal .375 hornady 270 grain
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/930087 ... -box-of-50

cal .458 remington 405 grain.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/160121 ... soft-point

 

[grumpyvette]

have you ever gotten harassment from friends over your choice in rifles?
Ive taken a bunch of verbal harassment but I noticed my choices also at times tended to result in similar rifle purchases.
now Im sure this has to be rather common simply because many of us are 100% convinced that the rifle type and caliber we choose to hunt with is obviously the best choice available and everyone else just can,t see how foolish their choice in weaponry is!
for 3 plus decades my late hunting partner carried a BLR in 358 win caliber on every ELK hunt we made to several states and over that time frame he managed to kill almost 20 elk in about 37 years we hunted using the same load of a 250 grain speer over 44 grains of IMR 4064 and a 215 fed primer.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/May_2009.html
I like trying out new things, and being a rifle crazed lunatic I have bought and traded off a good many rifles in the last 50 years.
now in that same time frame I made 40 plus out of state elk and mule deer hunts ,hunts in co. WY. even norther CA. with different rifles , at time I carried a 340 wby, 378 wby, 375 H&H ,458 win, 300wby, 300 win, 35 whelen,45/70 308 win, 30/06 and a 358 win.
I almost always brought two different caliber rifle and used one for mule deer and one for elk, and there were a great many times when i left camp thinking I would be hunting one or the other but found that the ELK I was armed for happened to be a MULE DEER that I had the opportunity to take or vice verse.
this led to a near constant good Nature verbal harassment from my partner who thought that constantly swapping rifles was both costly and a bit insane, he frequently asked me how I could even remember, if I was carrying a single shot, bolt action or semi auto, or had any hope of remembering trajectory, etc.
plus the constant verbal jibs about why did I need a "CANNON" or bother to carry an extra 2 lbs-3 lbs of rifle that was 6"-10" longer than necessary?

I can assure you that being a member of a group of about 16 -18 guys who remained rather serious members in our elk hunt club that I took similar good natured verbal abuse from some other members , but over the years I noticed that tended to drop off considerably due to the fact Id proved successful with most of the rifles I carried, and a couple were so effective that other members took notice and bought similar rifles.
the 35 whelen 7600 I bought,my 340wby, my 375 SAKO and my friend 358 BLR all performed well enough that others in the club purchased similar rifles or carbines, there's now at least 6 other 35 whelen 7600 rifles, 5 guys who now own 45/70 marlins and 4 other 340 wbys owned among the club members.
Ive had at least 5 guys offer to buy my sako 375 H&H for more than I paid for it, but its a sentimental favorite, that I won,t part with easily, and while my 340wby might be more powerful than necessary, it the first rifle I grab on most elk hunts.

I remember standing on the edge of a logging road one day near dark, waiting to be picked up by one of the guys who went to get the truck so we would not need to drag our packs loaded with 60-70 lbs of boned out elk, when a guy pulled up in a car to B.s. a bit and seeing we had obviously been successful he asked what rifle i was using/, before I could respond he pulled a 25/06 cartridge out of his top pocket and said he was hoping his choice would be effective.
I assured him if his shot was well placed he would do fine!
he asked me what I,d used to drop that elk, SAL , my partner on that hunt just started giggling and pulled a cartridge out of my rifles stock cartridge sleeve and handed it to the guy to examine...it was a 378 wby loaded with 300 grain boat tail bullets, the guys eyes really opened up....that started a rather interesting road side discussion.
BTW a 378 wby is in my experience no more effective than my 340 so I don,t think the extra recoil and impact energy gains you much more than some grins from friends that might think your a bit masochistic to use it on an elk hunt!
using a 378 wby for elk, is an idea that looked better on paper than it turned out to be in practice
http://www.chuckhawks.com/378weatherby.htm

viewtopic.php?f=92&t=2403&p=10070&hilit=+custom+rifle#p10070

I was 21 and at the time 100% convinced that my "failure" on my first two elk hunts to "instantly" drop elk on the spot with a 30/06 was due to use of a "WIMPY CALIBER" that was not up to the job, why those first two elk staggered around for a few yards before falling over,...I later found that was rather normal regardless of caliber used, the main advantage I see with the 340 wby is theres zero question from the games reaction that you hit them solidly, while thats not always the case with the 30/06.
yet the results with ether are similar, place the shot well and the elks dead in short order!
I guess I had a huge advantage in my education in that I got the opportunity to go on my first elk hunt when I was about 19- 20 years old. I learned while being mentored by 4 old geezers, who were members of the local rifle range, guys who had been making the trip out west too hunt elk,for decades before I had been granted the privilege,of being asked to join them and watch and learn from their experience.
I was specifically told what to buy wear,and bring and it was assumed I would take that advice as it was gleaned from decades of experience,and while I just "KNEW" I knew these old guys were not up on the newest stuff from reading all the magazine articles I also knew I wanted to fit in and be invited back so I followed the advice to the letter and for several years I worked, and I collected a legal elk on both of my first two trips using the 30/06 760 remington "loaded with 220 grain REMINGTON PETERS AMMO" that I was told was the "BEST DARN RIFLE AVAILABLE" for elk.
after 2 years I just KNEW I knew better and I bought a 340 wby and loaded some 250 grain hornadys and practiced a great deal, the first few elk I shot dropped on the spot, I was convinced I'd found the ANSWER!
but over the next 40 years a rather annoying fact kept, popping up, the guys in camp that continued to use those 30/06 rifles kept killing just as many elk just as dead as I did.
now in every magazine you see youll find pictures of elk , (mostly taken in places like YELLOWSTONE PARK) where ELK stand out in the open fields, but in areas that get hunted elk are rarely that stupid and those few that are don,t last very long.
once the first few car doors get slammed , and the first few shots get fired all the reasonably smart elk retreat to the remote side canyons and thicker brush. yes you might find a good place to intercept them as they move on a good choke point in the terrain as they vacate the easy to access areas but for the most part youll be sneaking thru aspen and oak brush and conifers, and shots over 250 yards will be rather rare, and if you can,t consistently place shots accurately under field conditions, what you carry won,t matter much!
the head stamp on the case or the caliber used is far less critical than you might think as long as the rifle is able to place shots accurately and punch holes clear thru an elk at any reasonable range.
why do I use a 340 wby? it works better than anything else Ive found, but I darn sure would not stay home if I only had a 257 Roberts, or a 308 win, as Ive seen enough elk killed convincingly dead with those to, think caliber was a huge factor in the success of a hunt any longer

 

[philly]

very interesting perspective, paul. when i got stationed in colorado i started hunting coyotes for pelt with some friends and they ribbed me alot about my choice of a 22-250 round for coyotes. i have always thought the round was excellent for its super flat trajectory out to 200 yards with off the shelf hornady ammo. these guys were using .17hmr and .22lr predominantly but they would have to call coyotes in very close to place accurate shots. when i went out on our first trip as a group and bagged 18 pelts alone (the other three guys got twenty pelts combined) because i could confidently place accurate shots out into the 100+ yard territory without having to worry about significant drop. i did ruin one pelt on that trip tho, the velocity of that round when it hits a rib brings a new meaning to blowing somethings "back out"! by the way when i left colorado i sold that rifle for a profit to one of the 22lr guys.

 

[grumpyvette]

no one can pick YOUR perfect ELK rifle any more than they can pick YOUR perfect wife, YOU will need to weigh the options , and know the conditions under which it will be used.
now personally Ive found a synthetic stock on a stainless rifle in either 340wby or 375 H&H fits my personal needs, AND EXPECTATIONS best on 90% of my hunts, my late hunting partner laughed him self silly at those and carried a browning BLR in 358 win for 35 years of hunting and one of the most successful hunters I know has used a model 30 Remington
in 35 whelen for 40 years.
but one other rather successful member of our elk camp thinks we are all nuts, hes had a ruger #1 light weight in 270 win for 40 plus years ... the truth is that its not the rifle, its the skill of the guy using it that maters the most!
Now having made about 36 plus out of state elk hunts over the last 45 plus years, I,M ALWAYS RATHER AMUSED THAT , one of the first subjects that almost always comes up when I start any discussion about elk hunting out west,especially near the younger guys, in our elk hunting club is many guys , when we go to the local range most weekends,,almost instantly, start talking about buying rifles, the newer guys want to go out and buy or justify the purchase of a new rifle or other gear, and they avoid discussing getting into an exercise program like the black plague , and the truth is that almost any 270 win,308 win,30/06, 7mm,35 whelen, or darn near any fairly flat shooting deer rifle could be and most likely should be used on the first few out of state elk hunts for several reasons, the first is any elk hunts going to be expensive and the last thing you need is to add an additional $400-$1500 too the cost,of the trip, the next is you darn sure don,t need to be carrying an unfamiliar rifle on your first elk hunt, and in most cases guys assume they need a more powerful rifle that has more recoil and in most cases thats the last thing you need!
Elk are not a great deal harder to kill than deer PROVIDED you can hit exactly where you plan to on a target out to lets say 300 yards, and Ive seen much better results with a common 30/06 or 308 win in the hands of experienced hunters than with the vast majority of guys using magnums on their first few hunting trips, the fact is it takes experience and practice to shoot a rifle well and buying a new rifle only months before a trip is rarely a good idea.
what IS a good idea that gets ignored is putting on a pack with a 40lb-50 lb bag of sand in it , or maybe 4-to-5 gallons of water and getting on a tread mill or start walking up and down some local high school stadium stairs for several hours a week, consistently.... thats not as "COOL" as a new rifle but once you jump out of a truck at 10,000 feet in elk country youll see why its rather important to your success, the best rifle ever built won,t do you much good if you can,t walk 100 feet without gasping like a gold fish out of water

 

[grumpyvette]

grumpy how much energy does a bullet need to have out at longer ranges to effectively kill deer or elk I read threads other places that suggest 600ft lbs for deer and 1500 ft lbs for elk, is that reasonable? I know you have some experience.

in the last 45 years Ive seen at least 60-70 deer and elk killed in our hunting camp using a fairly wide selection of rifle calibers, and a few with archery equipment,you notice trends over time.
an arrow may have under 100 ft lbs and still be lethal,its not FT LBS but proper placement or impact point of a bullet designed to expand and penetrate deeply in a controlled manor , and push thru the vitals from most reasonable ranges and angles and knowing the animals anatomy that's critical.
I can tell you from experience that a 44 mag loaded like the chart below is 100% effective on deer out at 150 yards where you have less than 600ft lbs
it might help if you think of a rifle as a tool to allow you to punch precisely placed holes thru game, those holes disrupt the vital organs function and if correctly placed cause rapid organ failure and death, the size of the projectile, and its mass and speed needs to be sufficient to punch thru to the vitals from any reasonable range or angle because the hunter can not dictate conditions or ranges, at which game will be found.
even a cartridge like a 243 properly loaded can do that on an elk under close to ideal conditions , but having a bit more energy bullet mass and velocity allows you to get the job done from a much larger selection of angles and ranges thus my suggestion of a 150 grain 270 caliber as a good reasonable lower limit on a 400-500 yard elk rifle.
a typical 270 win, hand load, with a 150 grain bullet will provide you with 1100 ft lbs of remaining energy at 500 yards
compare that to my 340 wby 250 grain bullet that can provide you with 2500 ft lbs of remaining energy at 500 yards
either cartridge with a properly placed shot proves quickly fatal but the larger heavier projectile can punch thru much more muscle and bone to reach the vitals, but at a cost of a rifle that weights 1.5-2 lbs more , making it less fun to haul around for days in the mountains and and a rifle that has a bit over twice the recoil, but still it has a noticeable advantage, in its ability to effectively anchor game a bit fast under some limited conditions, that should be ethically passed with the lighter caliber.

Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.2 Velocity (ft/s) 1200 Weight (grains) 240
Maximum Range (yds) 300 Interval (yds) 50 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 100
Wind Speed (mph) 0 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
Ballistics Results
Range (yards) Velocity (fps) Energy (ft.-lb.) Trajectory (in) Come UP in MOA Come UP in Mils Wind Drift (in) Wind Drift in MOA Wind Drift in Mils
Muzzle 1200 767 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
50 1108 654 2.8 -5.3 -1.6 0 0 0
100 1038 574 0 0 0 0 0 0
150 984 516 -10.8 6.9 2 0 0 0
200 940 471 -30.7 14.6 4.3 0 0 0
250 902 433 -60.3 23 6.7 0 0 0
300 868 401 -100.7 32 9.3 0 0

but you can make reasonable choices, in caliber and if you choose a quality bullet design with at least a .270 minimum sectional density
a .450 or better ballistic coefficient, and push it to at least about 2700fps youll generally have good results out to well past 500 yards
it should be obvious that given rifles of reasonably similar weight, that as bullet weight and velocity increase so does recoil, so you might want to consider that as well.
heavier bullets in a caliber tend to retain momentum and energy more efficiently.
personally Id suggest nothing smaller than a 270 caliber 150 grain bullet at at least 2700fps as a starting point on an elk rifle to be used out at longer ranges
Ive found the .338 225-250 grain bullets are ideal but you can certainly use the 7mm-160-175 grain, or 30 caliber 180-200 grain bullets pushed to 2700 fps or faster to get good results

heres a ballistic calculator

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resou ... calculator

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescour ... 50&bd=.338

 

[grumpyvette]

Most of the guys I know who just are getting started in elk hunting are overly concerned with selecting a rifle that shoots exceptionally flat at high velocity,while theres zero doubt that areas exist where thats very useful, its been decades since any member of out elk hunt club has killed any elk at over 250-300 yards, and the last time we actually took the effort to calculate the average distance, it was in the high 80-90 yard range , thats probably got a great deal to do with the gradual shift from the 7mm and 300 mags many of the guys started with,to calibers like 358 win, 35 whelen, 45/70 and 450 marlin, and shorter carbine length weapons that has slowly taken place.
yes a good many guys started with a 30/06 and 180 grain-200 grain and 220 grain bullets and many of the older guys have stuck with that combo, and at least in our group the remington pump action 30/06 and 35 whelen, and BLR in 30/06 and 450 marlin and 358 win are very common.
my personal average is probably in the 70 yard range with several shot at under 35 yards
I usually have my 35 whelen, and 450 marlin rifles along, sometimes my 375 H&H carbine, Id suggest you sellect a rifle your comfortable with that throws a fairly heave projectile in the 30 caliber or larger size,. now theres zero doubt a 270 win or 7mm08 can kill any elk, the areas i hunt have constantly, and repeatedly proven a 35 whelen or 30/06 or 338 win or similar caliber had advantages

while this is NOT my 375 H&H sako carbine, in the picture posted above, My SAKO CARBINE is almost an exact clone except, that my stocks about 5 shades darker, so its about as dark as walnut gets.
I found this picture posted on the internet, it could be a clone of the sako carbine Ive used for decades, if the stock color was about 6 shades darker walnut ,
mines about the color of a semi sweet dark chocolate

most of the areas I hunt look like these pictures

 

[grumpyvette]

I was asked if I think buying a stainless rifle is going to provide longer wear and require less maintenance,
I prefer stainless/synthetic or stainless laminated wood rifles, as I don,t care for flashy mirror polished stocks or barrels,
but I generally carry the minimal tools and solvents oils and water repellant waxes ,brushes rods,ext, required to clean my rifles, at the end of each day or when they need it more frequently, even in elk camp and all my older rifles show minor field wear but no rust or pitting and I don,t think theres much difference in accuracy.
some of those rifles are 40 years old and have been used for decades a few have been re-barrelled, but none look a great deal different from the day they were purchased other than minor stock scratches and mildly worn metal finish in places

 

[Grumpy]

I went to the range last week to relax a bit and sight in a couple of my deer and elk rifles that, Id not fired in a few years , and Jack and I got into a bit of a discussion about the rather wide variation between the different types of actions and calibers, weights and lengths etc.

my light sporter in 270 win was exceptionally accurate with its load of a 150 grain speer bullet over 55 grains of h4831 and a 215 fed primer
this is used mostly for mule deer as it shoots flat and hits hard at extended range, its moving at about 2700fps
Ive owned two, a 375 H&H and a 458 win, both with proper hand loads were consistent 1"-1.3" three shot group at 100 yards off a bench rest rifles
the 375 liked the 300 grain round nose hornady (no longer made) the 458 liked the 405 remingtons (hard to find)
both were damn good but heavy hunting rifles (youll appreciate the weight it reduces recoil)
I swapped to sako, remington, CZ and weatherby bolt guns in those calibers
and while I don,t regret swapping, to new rifles, in those calibers, I regret selling the ruger single shots as they were nice rifles.

my browning BLR in 450 marlin was exceptionally accurate with its load of a 405 grain remington bullet over 50 grains of imr3031 and a 215 fed primer, its moving about 1850 fps
this is used mostly for sneaking through the aspen thickets for elk where ranges rarely exceed 150 yards and dropping an elk fast is critical

my 44 marlin is loaded with a 310 grain hard cast bullet over 21 grains of h110 powder it pushed to about 1600 fps
its been great for florida deer where ranges rarely exceed 120 yards
the tools and terrain may differ , and the ranges and weather may be vastly different but the basic concept of knowing your games anatomy and careful shot placement remains fairly consistent and a day spent punching paper targets at the range can be rather relaxing at times

I sight all my hunting rifles to hit 3.5"high at 100 yards and for each rifle that works out just fine as for each it maximized the reasonable range I'm likely to ever use it at to take game , I can simply hold center chest behind the front leg out to any reasonable distance and the trajectory of the cartridge allows good hits in the vitals of the intended game to well past any range Id shoot at,
for the 44 thats about 160 yards, for the 450 marlin thats about 220 yard and for the 270 thats about 330 yards, now I know I can consistently hit well past that but shot placement is not going to be as exactly where I want it to be every time so I prefer to wait for a better shot in most cases
Jack had brought along his browning a-bolt and surprised me , with an offer to trade it for the ruger single shot 270 win, and since Ive always liked the 375 H&H caliber rifles we swapped, the browning a-bolts significantly heavier but its also intended for a different purpose , its a rifle intended to stop larger game at both close and medium distances, its fully able to kill anything in north America in skilled hands out to about 450 -500 yards or so, rather easily as it can push a 300 grain bullet to about 2600 fps
BTW if you don,t remember heres a link to that rifle,posted below

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/jacks-newly-tweaked-375-h-h.4459/#post-11712


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/printable-targets-and-sighting-in.4560/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-good-light-weight-elk-rifle.3738/#post-49416

 

[Grumpy]

I was talking with Jack about the idea of limiting one-self to a single dependable,
rifle for hunting out west, last night on the phone for quite awhile and it was rather amazing,
that we had both come from almost total polar opposite ends of the potential power and velocity scales yet both eventually,
had through hard won field experience moved toward each others point of view.
Id started out hunting with a 30/06 slide action Remington, not because I wanted to or thought it was ideal butt because I was flat out told that's what was REQUIRED,
to get the job done and if I was to be traveling along I would be bringing that as my weapon of "choice" that first year, I wanted to buy and hunt with a 340 wby or 375 H&H as Id read every darn magazine article jack O,CONNOR, and WOOTTERS, and a few other writers of that time period had written and was convinced a 30/06 was "marginal"

Jack had a bolt action hand me down, 30/30 as his first deer rifle and HATED the thing with a deep seated passion, he wanted a model 70 win in 7mm rem mag because he just knew every opportunity, for a shot at a mule deer or elk, he would ever get would be at 600 plus yards or more range!
After a few hunts we both got our dream rifles and eventually began to realize that it was the skill of the guy using the equipment far more than the equipment itself that mattered the most, but that a rifle and great optics that could be depended on was something that did not need to have excessive raging capability.
Jack settled on a SAKO 9.3 MM manlitcher carbine , very similar to the 375 H&H carbine I use for hunting dense thickets of aspen
both throw a 280-300 rain bullet at 2600-2800 fps and use a low power leupold scope for much of the western hunts

Jack had a Browning A-bolt in caliber 375 H&H

and had found the same hand loads as I was using quite accurate also, but he had mounted a 27" harris bi-pod to his rifle, which is identical to the one I use on my 340 WBY rifle I carry on most hunts, the 375 pushes a 270 grain at 2600 fps or so and the 340 pushes a 250 grain at 2900 fps performance on game is virtually identical

experience pushed us both to select a heavy bullet at under 3000 fps as a very effective choice to drop elk in their tracks, at the ranges we consistently find them (under 300 yards) now that in no way suggest,s theres not other very effective combos, its just that we BOTH stick with what what we BOTH find too have worked flawlessly in the past for decades , and its almost totally a duplicate answer to the question of what works.
technically the longer range capability of the rifles vs the carbines gives them a slight edge over the carbines but easily 70%-80% plus of the shots, take at game, are well within the carbines range limitations
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...d-by-for-coffee-and-too-b-s.10975/#post-48341

 

[Grumpy]

at some point in any discussion of this type it will be almost mandatory to bring up some perspective on how and why the person selecting the rifle may view whats expected from that rifles function.
My mentors when I started elk hunting were all 99% pure "HUNTERS" and in no way "EQUIPMENT FREAKS or GUN NUTS" by that I must point out, what I mean by that is the fact that by the time I was allowed to join the group making the annual out of state elk hunt , this group of older guys was well established and well known around our local area for decades among, the serious hunters, and they spent the vast majority of their time and resources looking over topo maps comparing area kill ratios, comparing average number of access roads, contacting, that states game wardens and area biologists , comparing weather reports, average temperatures elevations restricted public land limitations etc.
Almost to a man they carried a 30/06 , most a Remington pump action, and they assured me it was the best possible combination of low price, light weight,fast firing and good power to be had, but that it was just a tool, and you'll be using it for merely a few seconds on the hunt, the skill here is in knowing how to find and how to get in close to the elk. these guys slept under canvas tarps or old surplus tents, camped near where they parked the 4x4 trucks and walked talked, slept and breathed elk HUNTING.
I had asked a few times, about how most of the group had come to the conclusion, that the Remington 30/06 slide action was ideal,
and was told it was "what many of the local elk hunting guides carried"
and some how that alone settled the question.
(like I mentioned my mentors were not "gun nuts" just ELK HUNTERS who lived to be out in the mountains, and if all they had was a 257 Roberts , or a 303 British or a 6.5 Swedish, well they still killed elk so no big deal, the answer was always the same, you just needed to get 50 yards closer and everything would work out fine,like I mentioned my mentors were not "gun nuts" just ELK HUNTERS )
now as a younger member of the group I learned a great deal, from these old geezers ,about how to read topo maps and see obvious constrictions in likely travel routes, and how to locate where game was likely to be found. but having read every magazine article in damn near every hunting magazine for the last 15 years or so from the late 1950s through the late 1960s, and early 1970s I was convinced that the 30/06 was " old geezer " stuff ,(especially when if given a choice they always insisted on loading 220 grain peters ammo) which they claimed did a fine job,and the idea that there were newer and better rifle choices and there were far ridges to be climbed and valleys to be explored never seemed to enter into the discussions, (only as I gained experience did it dawn on my stupid young ass that if I shot a big bull in that distant canyon I had to drag his 400 lbs-600 lbs of meat back up out of that canyon, and transporting 400 plus lbs of meat out of some deep canyon was not easy to do on your back pack!..or that if I bought a 375H&H ammo cost 3-4 times as much, and the rifle weighted 2 lbs more to carry,and it had a bit more recoil, and the main advantage seemed to be the elk ran a little shorter distance (occasionally) when hit.(well that and the old guys in the group, seemed to smile a lot seeing me carry it)
I will point out that one factor I see that's been very consistent among most experienced hunters is that if you've had decades of success using any particular rifle or ammo your very understandably resistant to changing, what you've been using all those years without problems, and as newer guys join the group they tend to look at what the older and more successful members use for equipment and use that as a guide, Jack, Mike, Al,and yes I still do carry one of the 338, 358,or 375 caliber magnums and see no reason to change, and it still works, but as I gained experience I also came to see why the guys who were my mentors saw the larger harder hitting calibers as not necessarily a bad thing but certainly not a mandatory part of the equipment list either.
many guys seem to have had less than ideal results over the years with various calibers and its rarely if ever been attributed to bad shot placement or selecting the wrong projectile type for the application or lousy range estimation , which I suspect it was in most cases, but rather to the caliber or cartridge used, which rarely makes much logical sense if you think about it much.yet guys are very quick to blame the rifle rather than their lack of skill using it or the mirror image deal, where they drop some unlucky elk on the spot, instantly, and assume that every elk from that point on will react when hit in exactly the same way, based solely on the head stamp on their cartridge case brass! (equally ludicrous)
By the time I was a member for 20 plus years most of my original mentors were no longer active members but in the late 1980s and 1990s the majority of the members went through a phase where most of them owned a 7mm or 300 mag a few owned a 338 mag, Jack,Frank and Ron and I all owned larger magnums, but Ron probably hunted 95% of the time with a 358 win BLR with good success , Frank, soon stopped using anything but his 308 win BLR, and Jack started using a 458 single shot ruger on many hunts. but when he was serious he grabbed his 375 H&H or 9.3MM SAKO, I stuck with my 375H&H sako or 340 wby on most hunts out west, but my browning blr in 358 win or 450 marlin gets taken along for hunts in thick timber where a fast lever action carbine with a heavy bullet proves to be a good combo,yes you cab stack the odds slightly in your favor, by selecting your rifle caliber and ammo carefully, but..
its not the rifle its the skills of the guy using it that maters