sellecting valve springs, and setting up the valve train

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
How do you determine the spring pressure needed to keep the valves under control for a given lift, duration, and max rpm.
It might take you several hours to read thru all the links and sub links but its time very well spent as it could save your engine from destruction and save you thousands of dollars
ALWAYS ask detailed questions as to the best , and most durable parts combination they have available , for your application, from your cam suppliers tech department.

youll want some tools, naturally the amount of info you need and how precisely youll want to control your valve train will effect the tools and info required and to some extent the higher the rpm levels the higher the cost of tools and components required will be, for a basic street small block a black magic marker and a feeler gauge, and adjustable length push-rod and a geometry check tool can give you the basic info required

these tools come in different designs but youll want ones matching your application, in many cases the cam manufacturers and cylinder head manufacturers can give you a great deal of good info on common applications ,clearances and spring load rates and valve train geometry required, IF YOU fail to get the valve train clearances, piston to valve or rocker geometry correct and youll very quickly break parts.
If your ordering any cam, be very sure you explain what year block and what cylinder heads will be used as there are differences in the cams. between early and later SBC, block s and the cams they require,and on big blocks theres similar issues, a mark VI cam is different from a MARK IV cam

Recommended Valve Spring Pressures
ID STRONGLY SUGGEST THIS READING ASSIGNMENT
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preventing cam & lifter break-in failures


it should be rather obvious that there's options,you'll chose in both valve train components and lubricants, cam failures are usually the result of incorrect CLEARANCES or too much SPRING PRESSURE or LACK of ADEQUATE LUBRICATION,USE DECENT MOLY CAM LUBE, and decent quality oil, adding MAGNETS to trap metallic CRUD HELPS, if your not getting constant oil flow from each rocker /push rod at idle theres something wrong and that needs to be checked

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5is9BsH5OU


yes I know you want to skip reading links and sub links... its to your benefit to take the time and effort, to read through them
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ch-quest-series-similar-350-383-sbc-info.519/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/tbucket-engine-project-dart-shp.3814/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/sellecting-cylinder-heads.796/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/what-to-look-for-in-a-good-engine-combo.9930/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/my-1st-street-383-build.6962/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...383-build-that-is-now-going-to-be-a-400.7804/


http://cranecams.com/userfiles/file/334-343.pdf

http://www.woodcarbs.com/valvesprings.htm

http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.p ... rs/tie-bar

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2010/01/street-performance-cylinder-heads/

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-1209-eight-budget-sbc-head-shootout/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/sucp-0705-budget-chevy-cylinder-heads/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/sucp-0803-performance-cylinder-head-comparison/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/ccing-my-heads.14187/#post-71989

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ich-is-best-steel-or-aluminum.3124/#post-9141

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/rhodes-lifters.1552/#post-6067

https://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-dic ... ter/sd1005

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=9687&p=48105#p48105

http://www.usaperform.com/documents/Spe ... 0Chart.pdf

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Please note, the valve spring pressure figures given here are guidelines only. Some special applications may require different pressures. When in doubt, please contact your camshaft supplier.
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ID prefer to use the hardened steel, cup style, valve spring seats, rather than the inner spring diam. style spring seats, if I have the room with the proper machine work of course.
but those are mostly used with single springs , the inner spring diam. seats
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are frequently used with dual valve springs and a damper, so you will be using the matched components depending on existing clearances

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youll need these also
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in an ideal valve train geometry set-up the sweep mark on the valve tip will be very narrow and close to the valve center-line , but having the sweep mark narrow is more important than keeping it centered on the valve stem tip, the valve train does not like lateral or side ways loads on the valves and the wider sweep is an indicator of that issue, while a correctly set up valve train may have components that result in the valve tip sweep mark being slightly off the valve center-line this is not a major concern.
Its checking and verifying the valve train clearances and basic geometry that should be your major concern


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check all valve train geometry and clearance on any engine you assemble or modify the valve train on.
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the clearances and rocker geometry (push rod length,spring bind rocker to rocker stud clearance, etc.) must be checked carefully prior to starting the engine


prctool.png

http://www.summitracing.com/search/...d-length-checkers?autoview=SKU&ibanner=SREPD5
Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66789 SBC 3/8" rocker studs

Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66790 SBC 7/16" rocker studs

Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66806 BBC 7/16" rocker studs

"THAT PLASTIC THING" is a PUSH ROD LENGTH CHECKER, THE PUSH ROD LENGTH CHECKING, AND ROCKER GEOMETRY TOOL, ARE ENGINE SPECIFIC, so you MUST USE ONE DESIGNED FOR THE SAME STUD DIAM. SPECIFICALLY FOR YOUR SPECIFIC ENGINE, to find the correct rocker geometry and push rod length. If you for example use one designed for 7/16" studs on a SBC and used it on a BBC with 7/16" rocker studs the result would not be close to correct, if the tool designed for one engine is used on the wrong engine, so be damn sure you use the correct tool.
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while your rocker wear marks on the valve tips look very close to ideal , you need to verify the push rod length, as getting that rocker geometry correct is important to durability , and a slight change in push rod length may improve that further, keep in mind that having the wear band centered is nice but not as important as keeping in narrow and close to center as possible as a narrow wear band tends to indicate minimal side thrust and as a result minimal wear results
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if your seeing a .120-.150 gap between the push rod tip when the "PLASTIC THING" is inserted on the rocker stud ,with the cam lobe /lifter on the base circle AND IF ITS THE CORRECT CHECK TOOL FOR THE APPLICATION,and its resting on the valve tip, your push rods that much too short for the application, your measuring, if the tool rests on the push rod tip and its lets say .060 off the valve tip, that indicated the push rods that much too long for THAT particular application, get within .040 or less on either meassurment and your fine
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SOME ROLLER ROCKERS CAN AND DO BIND ON ROCKER STUDS, or rocker adjustment nuts, youll need to check carefully
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some roller rocker too retainer combo clearance issues cause problems easily solved with beehive springs and smaller retainer diameters
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BEEHIVE SPRINGS GIVE A GOOD DEAL MORE ROCKER TO RETAINER CLEARANCE



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https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=93&v=SzD_LZ3fM-s
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4596&p=18401&hilit=adjustable+guide+plates#p18401

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=2839&p=7344&hilit=adjustable+guide#p7344

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If your not getting oil flow, at the rockers,youll still need to verify the oil feed holes line up and are not blocked and the rockers adjusted correctly, try backing off on the adjustment nut as the engine idles to the point the rocker clicks noticeably then slowly tighten just to the point the noise stops , then add only a 1/4 turn, and see if that doesn,t cure the oil feed issue
this is what ERSON CAMS SUGGESTS AND MOST COMPANY'S
HAVE VERY SIMILAR PRESSURE SUGGESTIONS

Id also point out that youll want to lubricate any valve you install in a valve guide and verify the valve train clearances very carefully, and use the correct valve springs and add the correct valve seals installed
roller lifters are generally heavier than flat tappet lifters and roller cams tend to have more aggressive ramp speeds requiring stiffer valve spring load rates
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The following recommendations are from Erson Cams. If you have questions, you can reach their tech department at 800-641-7920.

Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft: 110 lbs Seat pressure/250-280 lbs open pressure

Solid Flat Tappet Camshaft: 130 lbs Seat Pressure/300-325 lbs open pressure

Hydraulic Roller Camshaft: 130-140 lbs Seat Pressure/300- 355 lbs open pressure

Solid Roller Camshaft: (Minimum Safe Pressures DEPEND ON SEVERAL FACTORS)

Up to .600˝ valve lift: 200-235 lbs Seat Pressure/600 lbs open pressure

Over .600˝ valve lift: 250-280 lbs Seat pressure /100 lbs pressure for every .100˝ of valve lift

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/lifter-weights-and-its-effect-on-rpm.16731/
ValveSpringClearance01.jpg

CAST CAM CORES ARE NOT DESIGNED TO HANDLE OVER ABOUT 130lbs SEAT and 400lbs OPEN SPRING LOADS YOU NEED A BILLET CAM CORE FOR DURABILITY IF THOSE LIMITS ARE EXCEEDED

typically chevy valve springs use single or dual valve springs usually with an inner friction damper
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single valve spring with friction damper
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dual valve springs with friction damper
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dual valve springs without damper
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REMEMBER TO CAREFULLY CHECK THE PUSH ROD TOO CYLINDER HEAD GUIDE SLOT AND CYLINDER HEAD CASTING CLEARANCES,IF THE PUSH ROD BINDS IT MAY CAUSE A LOSS OF OIL FLOW THROUGH THE PUSH ROD, FROM LIFTER TOO ROCKER OR THE LIFTER TO WEAR RAPIDLY

checking all valve train clearance issues in mandatory
you must check EVERY ENGINE you assemble,or change valve train components on, for valve spring coil bind, on all springs and dampers,retainer to valve guide clearance,rocker to retained edge clearance, rocker slot to rocker stud clearance,the correct centered rocker to valve tip geometry , piston to valve clearance,push-rod to push-rod guide alignment and clearance , the heads for clearances and a dozen other factors listed below over the whole 720 degree repetitive cycle the valve train cycles thru
obviously you need to verify all valve train clearances and prevent parts binding at any point in the 720 degree repeat cycle the valve train operates in and you need to try to maintain almost all valve train geometry to minimize side loads on valve stems in guides to reduce wear and friction, and keep the lubricant flowing to absorb and remove heat from the valve train components
http://www.gsproducts.com/pac-valve-springs/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-66789/
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part ... -Checkers/
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viewtopic.php?f=52&t=5931&p=18267#p18267

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http://www.northernautoparts.com/Produc ... ductId=678

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=788

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=9687&p=36006#p36006

http://www.psisprings.com/index.php?opt ... view&id=17

http://www.cvproducts.com/Products/Engi ... %20Spring/

http://www.gsproducts.com/pac-valve-springs/

WATCH THE VIDEOS, READ THE LINKS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqx8Cs6O ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GBNLlsi ... re=related

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/small-base-circle-cams.3810/
IT WILL HELP A great deal if you,READ THRU THE LINKS AND SUB LINKS
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1376

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

http://www.supercarsunlimited.com/info/ ... prings.htm

http://www.compcams.com/Products/CC-%27 ... %27-0.aspx

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=399

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engi ... ewall.html

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3124

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3009


viewtopic.php?f=52&t=689

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=9392

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2632

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1719

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-7 ... dia/images

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a good set of big block chevy push rods can easily cost over $200-$300

READ THIS THREAD
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=6491&p=20681&hilit=spray+springs+cooling#p20681

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engi ... vesprings/

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1489

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Proper push rod length is absolutely critical for peak performance—minimizing bent or broken valve stems, guide wear, and energy-wasting valve side-loading friction.
With the lifter located on the round base circle, position the Push Rod length Checker (make sure you have the Checker with the proper diameter hole) over the stud. Ideally the Checker should contact the top of the push rod and the valve tip evenly at the same moment, should the Checker contact the push rod first, measure the gap between the front of the checker and the valve tip, and purchase a shorter push rod of the correct length. Should the Checker contact the valve tip first, measure the gap between the back of the Checker and the top of the push rod, and purchase a longer push rod
prctool.png

http://www.summitracing.com/search/...d-length-checkers?autoview=SKU&ibanner=SREPD5
Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66789 SBC 3/8" rocker studs

Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66790 SBC 7/16" rocker studs

Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66806 BBC 7/16" rocker studs


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If you suspect a worn cam lobe, checking the cams lobe lift with a dial indicator on the valve spring retainer vs the other lobes would certainly provide useful related info.
knowing vs guessing helps in making decisions wisely

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66830/overview/
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https://www.harborfreight.com/multipositional-magnetic-base-with-fine-adjustment-5645.html

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https://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?dir=asc&order=EAScore,f,EAFeatured+Weight,f,Sale+Rank,f&q=indicator+stand

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2091

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=2839&p=12739#p12739

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viewtopic.php?f=52&t=196

http://www.racingsprings.com/
(866) 799-9417
http://www.racingsprings.com/Staff
heres their ph#
Toll Free (866) 799-9417
I always just order the springs retainers valve locks and spring seats as a package deal (NOT CHEAP BUT EVERYTHING WORKS AND FITS) then you just need shims under the valve spring seats occasionally to get the correct installed height

http://www.racingsprings.com/Valve Springs/Store/13


http://store.procompelectronics.com/p-1 ... of-16.aspx
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I buy most of the valve springs I use from these guys, if you tell them EXACTLY what you are doing , clearances, cam, spring diam, length etc. they can suggest something that fits your application almost EXACTLY, they are usually very helpful


I usually buy valve springs from these guys

http://www.racingsprings.com/Store/ProductCategory.asp?ProductCategoryID=13

if your not sure what you need in load rates and clearance and installed height,ETC., ask the tech guys on both that site and your cam manufacturers site.
in an ideal world the rocker pushes strait down the valve stem center line to reduce friction,but having the rocker wear pattern centered on the valve tip is far LESS important than having it rather narrow indicating less side thrust or drag on the valve
and having the rocker geometry a bit off as long as the clearances are correct, is unlikely to cause noise issues as much as long term valve guide wear issues


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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-7901-1/
actually measuring clearances helps a great deal

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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-66832/?rtype=10
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If your not sure about the proper installed spring height,spring load rates,valve shims ,valve spring seat and required clearances,why not have the machine shop suggest what would match your current needs after telling them the clearance requirements and cam lift.
remember longer valves generally require longer push rods and getting the rocker geometry correct is critical to durability, shims & spring seats can easily be used to shorten installed spring heights,they also make .050 off set valve keepers and .050 off set spring retainers so you can adjust installed height over a full .200 with the same valve length

READ THESE

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1005&p=15534&hilit=spring+shims#p15534

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=697

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4962&p=13814&hilit=spring+shims#p13814

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heres a printable degree wheel
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INSTALLED SPRING HEIGHT-MINUS SPRING BIND HEIGHT-minus .060 thousands -EQUALS MAX LIFT
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article ... _much.aspx

http://www.kennedysdynotune.com/Valve%2 ... 20Tech.htm

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=404&p=496&hilit=rope+adapter#p496

READ THRU THESE INFO LINKS ALSO, THERE A GREAT DEAL OF USEFUL INFO IN THE LINKS, and SUB-LINKS POSTED HERE THAT YOU NEED TO KNOWyes IM sure that appears to be a huge investment in time and effort , but having a durable and stable valve train takes a bit of effort and knowledge to set up correctly, you can rarely just assemble parts and have it work correctly.
If your thinking of running over 450 lbs or valve spring at peak lift Id suggest both 7/16" rocker studs and a stud girdle , be used and if your running 500lbs-600 lbs plus of spring pressure , its pretty much mandatory,on both a sbc and bbc
and Id suggest the STEEL ROLLER ROCKERS,be used rather than aluminum as they have a longer fatigue life, the last thing you want is a rocker stud cracking a head, or a rocker coming apart at high rpms
in theory brass/bronze valve guides are minimally softer and wear faster,than iron valve guides, but in reality if your using the proper valve seals, and have your oil flow to the upper valve train functioning correctly with reasonably clean oil, theres a thin coat of oil between the valve stems and the surface of the inner valve guides, that prevents any wear if your valve train geometry has the main loads centered on the valves center line. keep in mind having proper valve train geometry, and having constant clean oil flowing over and cooling the valve springs, and rockers, plays a huge part in valve wear issues.remember the surface Finnish, clearances, valve seals and oil viscosity along with proper valve train geometry and material used in the valves also effects valve wear
btw coating the valve stems with a mixed slurry of marvel mystery oil and crane cams MOLY assembly lube during the cylinder head assembly process, tends to prevent dry start issues with the guides seizing valve stems

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(quote)A valve spring not only has to control the valve train, but also the spring's own weight. So
reducing the weight of the moving end of the spring helps in this matter.

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Rick(quote)

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heres a chart I found that I don,t fully agree with, I think its a bit conservative, by about 3%-5% on the required cam duration ,required to avoid detonation with todays crappy octane fuel, but it at least gives you a base to work from, but Id suggest selecting a bit more duration
YOUR REALLY GOING TO WANT TO READ THRU THESES SUB LINKS FOR MORE COMPLETE INFO


viewtopic.php?f=52&t=528

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1376

http://www.compcams.com/technical/FAQ/F ... prings.asp

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=6198&p=19404#p19404

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com ... ngeom.html

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2746

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engi ... vesprings/

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1376&p=3033#p3033

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/vo ... index.html

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3367&p=8900&hilit=rocker+fulcrum#p8900

http://carcraft.automotive.com/9794/vor ... index.html

http://www.supercarsunlimited.com/info/ ... prings.htm

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2768&p=7190#p7190

http://www.hi-flow.com/HPYT4.htm

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=799

http://www.kmotion.biz/instht.htm

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/11 ... index.html

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=401&p=491#p491

http://www.aa1car.com/library/camshafts.htm

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=501

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=1246

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=788

http://www.compcams.com/catalog/COMP201 ... 010_10.pdf

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... fters.html

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=324

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-train-clearances-and-problems.528/

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=198&p=233&hilit=louis#p233

http://www.ovaltracking.com/tech/2006/i ... ive-3.html

http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/vemp_0204_ ... index.html

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1005

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=401&p=7061#p7061

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=410&p=1907#p1907

http://cranecams.com/?show=valveSpringsFAQ

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=126&p=1193&hilit=+girdle#p1193

http://www.compcams.com/Products/335-353.PDF

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=697

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viewtopic.php?f=52&t=126&p=1270&hilit=+roller+rockers#p1270

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1053

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=10363

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.c ... re_Code=PH

http://www.cranecams.com/?id=5&show=faq

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0 ... index.html

http://www.corvetteflorida.com/forums/s ... php?t=5725

http://www.circletrack.com/drivetrainte ... index.html

http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/c ... index.html

http://www.hotrod.com/howto/51058_cylin ... index.html

http://www.flatlanderracing.com/revkitsafr.html

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=8582&p=30180#p30180

http://www.powerperformancenews.com/for ... a-863.html

http://popularhotrodding.automotive.com ... index.html

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=663&p=911&hilit=+girdle#p911

http://www.stockcarracing.com/techartic ... index.html

http://www.supercarsunlimited.com/info/ ... prings.htm

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.c ... y_Code=BEE

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=974

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=903

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=399

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4564&p=12170#p12170

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=663&p=911&hilit=girdle#p911

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=125

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2875

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/engine ... ables.html

If your rebuilding an engine ,the questions that really should be asked here......
were you completely happy with the old cam or did you feel you wanted more upper or lower rpm band torque, did you like the way the engine ran, or did you feel it needed some tweaking?.....
what would you have liked to be changed about the power band when the old grind was in use?
BTW are you aware that reducing cams lift and valve spring load rates /pressures, and the degree of the aggressive cam ramp acceleration tends to increase durability in valve train components? yes it may cost you some hp, but it may be a good trade for increased durability
thats something thats partly an art, not truly an exact science, due to differences in ramp acceleration rates, lifter design, and valve train geometry, spring load rates,harmonics, etc. I usually contact the cam manufacturer and get their input,, because they are very much interested in having their product perform well. then I carefully verify my combos clearances and spring load rates,(verifying the clearance issues are VERY important) but you need to understand that if you substitute a different brand or style of lifter or rocker,etc. its going to change the results, harmonics and rpm band, generally you can add some stability with a rocker stud girdle, and if you find your having control issues you can usually either add a rev kit or swap to a slightly stronger load rate in a beehive or dual spring.
you might want to look into BEE HIVE VALVE SPRINGS, because, if they are available for your application. they allow both a lighter spring with the same pressures and a smaller diam, and lighter weight retainer , giving greater rocker clearance and lighter inertial loads at high rpm
lower spring pressures usually result in less wear on the valve train, smaller diam. retainers, used on bee hive springs generally allows higher rpms and lower loads on the valve train, IDEALLY, you want the LOWEST spring rates and LIGHTEST valve train components that will still control the valve train in the rpm ranges your engine operates in.:thumbsup:
check with your cam supplier they tend to cost slightly more but they can give you some additional rpm capacity and lower stress
keep in mind the seat diam. on the heads is usually limited or set by what can be machined ,the coil bind or stack height and installed height must match the cam lift clearance and and both the open and stationary s, issues like inside dia. and distances between retainer and valve guides ETC. dictate the valve seals that can be used, spring loads must match the application, yes
when you select a cam, the cam supplier will generally suggest matched springs, and an installed height and matched components, and yes they have a marked interest in your engine performing well , so they will tend to give good info, they are NOT just trying in most cases ,to increase their profits by selling you stuff you don,t need.
yes stock springs are fine IN SOME APPLICATIONS, but you must ALWAYS check spring clearances and loads and valve train geometry
theres a big difference in spring quality between the O.E.M and the better aftermarket springs and running double or triple springs can at times be an option, remember lighter valve train components usually reduce stress, allow less spring pressure and resulting valve train wear, and tend to increase the rpm range.
btw your generally fighting a hopeless battle if your expecting complete valve control with any hydraulic cam design much over about 6400rpm-6500rpm
and your valve spring load rates do effect the roller lifters life expectancy, high load rates decrease the cams life span and increase wear issues

Smokey Yunick discovered that valve springs raise the operating temperature of engine oil more than combustion heat with his own version of today's "Spintron" spin fixture. From the Circle Track Archives

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keep in mind that you can use EITHER self aligning rockers OR guide plates BUT NOT BOTH at the SAME TIME with properly installed screw in rocker studs
rockerguide.jpg

http://www.racingsprings.com/

http://www.iskycams.com/psisprings.php

http://www.psisprings.com/index.php?opt ... view&id=17

http://www.ovaltracking.com/tech/2006/i ... ive-3.html
self aligning rockers have ridges to prevent the rocker from moving off the valve stem

COC1318-1.jpg

0607phr_31_z+camshaft_basics+valve_springs.jpg


left is a BEEHIVE SPRING,with small light weight retainer, RIGHT SIDE STANDARD SPRING standard retainer
beeroc.jpg


http://www.dougherbert.com/1445beehives ... 22853.html

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/s ... 7_-1_10699

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/vo ... g_upgrade/

400-200-PushrodDiagramA.jpg


Id use any decent quality springs from any NAME BRAND manufacturer regardless of brand if the clearance and load rate specs matched the required clearances and loads, naturally the manufacturer of the cam has a vested interest in your engine running correctly so their advice should be taken seriously, but because its a very competitive market they will rarely point out the BEST springs, opting for the slightly more that adequate choice to keep the costs lower and make the sale, knowing that in most cases that's going to be the best compromise , but I certainly would avoid "deals" from sources like EBAY where your not sure what your getting and they have little to loose selling cheap imported junk, after all its YOUR engine that's going to be damaged if they fail, and quality COSTS more than JUNK!

as a general guide flat tappet cams , and mild hydraulic roller cams will want about a 120 lb seat and 330-340 lb over the nose full open spring load rates

its not until you get into the solid roller cams that the load rates jump significantly

naturally you'll want to read the cam manufactures info on clearances, posted on the cam cards and their web sights , as to suggested installed height, spring diam. and load rates before selecting springs or setting up your clearances and the installed heights and spring bind heights do vary a good deal, and don,t forget to verify the valve train clearances and geometry, as a general rule, sbc hydraulic cams used with stock heads,will work with lifts of 0.475 and under, and work with most stock springs
yes we all know guys who (SUCCESSFULLY??) installed a .500 lift cam with good result (SO FAR), but without checking clearances carefully that also a great way to have problems, and its that not checking that results in most of the problems I constantly see, as a result of cam swaps, youll also want to keep in mind that the DURATION and LSA (LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE) play a part in the clearance issues, between the valves and pistons


obviously getting the clearances wrong, or over reveing the engine can cause problems

measuringclearance.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66830
66830.jpg

http://www.centuryperformance.com/check ... g-144.html

http://www.racingheadservice.com/Inform ... arance.asp

http://www.cdxglobal.com/content/sample ... ear_WS.pdf

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_0701_ ... index.html

116_0701_06_z+valve_to_piston_clearnace+indentations.jpg


116_0701_04_z+valve_to_piston_clearnace+measure.jpg


ISKY CAMS SELLS CUTTERS LIKE THIS TO NOTCH PISTONS
0907chp_11_z+chevy_348_big_block_engine_restoration+safe_exhaust_valve_clearance.jpg



cca-4929.jpg

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1751&p=4387#p4387
valveinpiston.jpg

bent_valve.jpg

theres hundreds of ways to destroy an engine, but a common route is trying to compress solid objects in the combustion chamber,where theres not nearly enough clearance,or having the valve train bind up due to clearance issues or reveing the engine above its valve control limitations. lack of lubrication and too much heat can easily be factors but...
failure to keep the pistons from hitting the valves, bending valves, ,over reveing the valve train and having un-controlled valve movement, or having chunks of piston,that detonation can break loose, being compressed against the heads,can result in the cracked cylinders, and bent rods like the pictures below show
crackedbore.jpg

crackedbore1.jpg

brokenvalvesprings.jpg

any part can fail but running valve springs up near their minimum clearance and maximum rpm range limitations is just asking for problems
bustedvalve.jpg

blockcrack.jpg

brokemaincap.jpg


FlatVsRollerChart.gif

FlatTappetVSRollerTappet6.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
Re: sellecting valve springs

BTW TESTING BY SMOKEY YUNICK, proved theres more HEAT transferred to the engine oil from the valve springs and rockers, and bearings than from combustion!......think about that! without oil flow valve springs, the friction from them flexing builds heat very rapidly and they eventually loose much of their strength,if not constantly bathed in a shower of oil to absorb and transfer the heat out of the valve train, so when some guy starts suggesting you limit the oil flow to the rockers and springs hes in effect planning on limiting the engines durability, you need full oil flow to the valve train assembly....now of course that oil needs to be returned to the sump, cooled and recycled thru the engine efficiently, but its mandatory that its flowing over the valve springs and rockers for engine durability, and if the contact area between the valve stems and guides, rockers, and the valve springs are not kept reasonably well lubed it frequently results in those (UN EXPLAINED )dropped valves, busted springs and the resulting carnage those can cause.....limit oil flow to the valve train and the spring tension can drop rapidly as the springs anneal , of fracture under hundreds of cycles and hundreds of pounds of spring and inertia loads and from excessive heat that can build up in only a minute or two of high rpms without oil flow bathing the valve train

the rotating assembly bearings ,wrist pins and complete valve train,valve springs, lifters, valves and valve guides and the pistons and rings are where a great deal of the engine heat is generated, and those components are initially cooled with oil flow that absorbs and transfers the heat collected , and transported from those components to the block and coolant, so having a constant flow of pressurized oil flow over those parts are mandatory for maximum durability.thus adding a larger capacity baffled oil pan and an oil cooler will generally enhance and extend an engines life span.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-mods-that-help.2187/


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-matched-valve-spring-required.13774/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...sion-and-oil-cooler-increases-durability.176/


keep in mind in most cases higher valve spring pressures don,t tend to make the engine significantly harder to spin because theres an equal number of valves closing at the same time there are valves opening ,thus much of the increased force or load is off set, but the stress on the lifters and cam lobes, and lifter contact points on the lobes IS increased, so a billet cam core is a nearly mandatory choice at above about 400 ft lbs of valve spring pressure for long term durability and with the faster acceleration rates on most roller cam lobe designs the higher pressures become mandatory to maintain high rpm valve train stability, if you loft a roller lifter valve train,at high rpms, under valve float conditions it frequently and rapidly leads to valve train failures, so verify the required valve springs and clearances with the cam and cylinder head manufacturers before installation

having a REV-KIT that retains the lifters in their bores, to maintain oil pressure, even if the rocker comes loose or push rods breaks is a good idea
revkit1.jpg

revekit.jpg

on many hydraulic roller lifter applications a REV KIT on hydraulic roller lifters adds several hundred RPM to the power band before valve control issues develop
BTW theres useful info in these threads also
youve installed 1.6:1 ratio rockers and the pushrods rub...in the guide slots in the cylinder heads,
this is a common problem,easily solved...
YOU NEED A louis tool, YOU WANT ABOUT .060 CLEARANCE, IT MAKES THE JOB EASY
This tool was designed to simplify the modification needed when using 1.6 rocker arms on SB-Chevy heads. It allows you to use a hand drill with a 5/16'' bit to elongate the pushrod slot exactly in line with the existing slot, thus eliminating the need for guide plates.
stampedcvrockersa.jpg

rockeroilfeed.jpg

longslot.jpg

stock stamped rockers are cheap but the ratio is usually not precise and the slots for the rocker studs can bind at high lift plus they easily restrict 10-15 hp in friction losses.
screwstud.jpg

cyl7.jpg


pictured above you see the last rocked badly out of alignment with the valve center line,
a good example why you need adjustable guide plates, this rocker if left too run off center like this, on the valve stem tip , will quickly destroy the valve guide and rocker
rockertrunion1.png

rollflata.jpg


rollerr1.jpg

rollerr3.jpg


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66830/overview/
pro-66830_cp.jpg

liftc1f.jpg

worn5.jpg


http://www.engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ215_18-38.pdf

https://www.harborfreight.com/multipositional-magnetic-base-with-fine-adjustment-5645.html

bv93fans.jpg

https://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?dir=asc&order=EAScore,f,EAFeatured+Weight,f,Sale+Rank,f&q=indicator+stand


Rocker1closed.jpg


Rocker2mid-lift2.jpg

read this link

http://www.engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ215_18-38.pdf
dualspring.jpg

Rocker3fulllift.jpg


Rocker5.jpg

vsmt9.jpg

0509_13z+chevrolet_l72_427_engine+adjusting_valves.jpg

RockerGeometry.jpg


its very common to find you'll gain a couple horsepower with the addition of a rocker stud girdle employed,
as youll have both more precise valve train control and less deflection, Ive seen guys instantly gain an extra 150 rpm-200 rpm,
before they started feeling valve float or loss of valve train control and its certainly less stress on the cylinder head casting and rocker studs.
the one thing ID suggest is that before you buy any rocker stud girdle you ask questions, many cylinder head designs use non-standard rocker stud spacing.


some roller rocker too retainer combo clearance issues cause problems easily solved with beehive springs and smaller retainer diameters
beehivesprcl.jpg

for several years even stock BBC engines ,(the markVI and mark V) as opposed to the (mark IV earlier BBC engines)
also don,t use adjustable rocker arms if your running a stock cam and valve train with stock O.E.M. heads you probably can get by without them,
swap to a higher lift cam and a longer duration and aftermarket heads and better valve strings and in my opinion,
you would be very foolish to build and use a performance BBC engine without adjustable push rod guide plates
what you really should do is order these
Dart 27001230-4 - Dart Pushrod Guideplates

301-27001230-4.jpg



viewtopic.php?f=44&t=2839&p=7344&hilit=adjustable+guide#p7344

girdle9.jpg


IMG_2071.jpg

roller tips are usually more precise ratio rockers but don,t look for any huge reduction in friction

rollerr2.jpg

true roller rockers can frequently free up 15-20 hp in reduced friction.
Is coil bind height and open height the same thing? The springs I'm wanting to go with have an installed height of 1.940 and open height of 1.250. With .600 exhaust lift, does that give me .090 before coil bind?

drawsdf.jpg


installed height is open height, the springs set up to provide a minimal resistance before it can be compressed further, the cam card below may help
crane110921.jpg

notice the listed info
cranesp1.png

A BIT OF QUICK RESEARCH


Crane Cams#271-99846-16
Single Valve Springs
Outside Diameter: 1.255"
Inside Diameter: .870
Seat Pressure: 125 LBS @ 1.800"
Open Pressure: 383 LBS @ 1.200
Coil Bind: 1.100"
Rate (LBS/IN.): 428
Max Lift: .640
Set of 16

http://www.jegs.com/i/Crane-Cams/271/99846-16/10002/-1
hydr1.png

hydr2.png


watch this video, it depicts the lifters movement as the cam lobe rotates under its base forcing it up as the lobes ramp, rotates under the lifter base,removing the clearance slack,
as it compresses the valve spring and forces the trapped oil, up the push rod and lifts the valve

If you are concerned with measuring the clearance in the hydraulic lifter seat when selecting and measuring the correct valve train geometry,
so you can order the correct length push rods...
I don,t think you have the correct idea as to how hydraulic lifters work,
yes it is possible for an engine with hydraulic lifters to be pushed too operate at a high enough rpm that the time required for the lifter seat to fully depress and all the oil too be forced up to the push rod/rockers , to be so short that the lifter pumps up and the valves will have less seat time, ( sometimes one of several factors, like the lifter leaving the cam lobes surface as the inertial loads exceed the valve springs ability to maintain lifter too lobe contact, referred too or contributing to what is commonly referred too as valve float) but that has ZERO to do with selecting push rod length or proper valve train geometry, (remember at 6000 rpm the valve is lifted off its seat 50 times PER SECOND)
hydrlifth.jpg


notice the coil bind height PLUS, approximately the .090 is the listed max lift, and the max lift on the cam or open height is a bit less.
engines require clearances to work correctly and with valve springs having a bit of extra clearance helps durability, this is generally one reason WHY cams are sold with a strongly suggested set of load rates and clearances so they can operate under know and expected stress levels they were designed for
WATCH VIDEO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxROQtv7 ... dded#at=31
Duration_v_RPM-Range_wIntakeManifold01.jpg



http://www.competitionproducts.com/1500-1585-OD-Valve-Springs/products/2631/1/0

https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/valve-springs

https://www.iskycams.com/cart/valve-springs-c-99.html

http://www.cranecams.com/userfiles/file/334-343.pdf


http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ring-installation-questions.12833/#post-66460

https://www.racingsprings.com/Valve-Spring/Store/13

http://www.lunatipower.com/Category.aspx?id=23

http://www.pspring.com/products/engine-valve-springs/

http://www.competitionproducts.com/Valve-Springs/departments/49/

http://psisprings.com/products/

http://www.compcams.com/Products/CC-'Valve Springs By Usage'-0.aspx

http://www.racingsprings.com/Beehive-Valve-Springs

https://www.supertechperformance.com/valve-springs-p109

http://www.cvproducts.com/index.php/psi-springs/


viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2746

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2661

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/tech/ ... to_11.html

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1751

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=6491

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1716&p=4250&hilit=beehive#p4250

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1489

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1751&p=4387#p4387

hydrauliclifter.jpg


viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2166&p=5840#p5840

read
cambutton.gif

retain7.jpg

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

distriboil.jpg

what the stock OEM roller lifter valve train looks like

rollerspider.jpg


hydraulic_roller_cams+one_piece_rear_main_seal_truck.jpg


MouseFink said:
The Cadillac CTS-V lifters, GM-88958689 (box of 16 - $296.36 msrp) will not withstand bone crusing valve spring spressure for long. The Cadillac CTS-V lifters are lighter weight and are no stronger than standard Chevrolet LS-7 lifters, GM-12499225 (box of 16 - $139.76 msrp) or GM-17122490 (box of 8), AC Delco HL-224 hydraulic roller lifters. If you use standard or aftermarket SS valves and valve train components with more than 130 - 150 lb. seat pressure and 330 -360 lb. open pressure, you are better off using hydraulic roller lifters that can withstand that much pressure, such as Comp Cams 875 Reduced Travel or Comp Cams 15850 Short Travel hydraulic roller lifters with restricted oiling.

The Chevrolet LS and Cadillac CTS-V lifters are designed to be used with less than 100 lb. seat pressure and 300 lb. open pressure. That is because instead of bone crushing valve spring pressure, the Chevrolet LS and Cadillac CTS-V engines use titanium locks and retainers with sodium filled and titanium valves. Those lifters also have restricted oiling for moderate load beehive valve springs. Those type valve springs have progressive pressure and do not need to be flooded with oil for cooling. The Chevrolet Z06 and Cadillac CTS-V engines are supercharged and don't need to be be spun up to the stratosphere to make over 500 HP.BTW...You don't have to specify "LS7 lifters" anymore. You can just call them "Chevrolet roller lifters" because GM uses the GM-12499225 (AC Delco HL-124) roller lifters as service replacements in all 1991-2013 V8 engines, except the Cadillac CTS-VR engines.
STOCK dog bone design hydraulic enclosed wheel roller lifters are generally designed for less than .550 lift and less than 6000rpm
the stock Chevy hydraulic roller lifters , dog bone and spider springs don,t always work reliably, ALL THE TIME with engines having over .500 lift or when spun over 6000rpm, its not all that rare for the lifter ,retainer to bend the retainer spring allowing the lifter to spin sideways, in the lifter bore, resulting in a destroyed cam, thats why Ive suggested BRAND NAME ,AFTERMARKET RETRO FIT CAM COMPONENTS BE USED

bentspiderspring.jpg

bentspiderspring1a.jpg

roller blocks have taller lifter bores, because roller lifters are taller, and a provision to bolt the lifter retainer spring, but they can be very easily used for the earlier flat tappet lifters if desired by simply removing the spider(SPRING RETAINER), keep in mind most roller blocks use one piece rear seals
on Chevrolet engines, Crane recommends that a .030-inch-wide and .030-inch-deep groove be machined or filed into the bottom band on the distributor shaft as shown (arrow) to provide lubricant to the distributor gears. Place the groove on the distributor so that when timed properly, the groove will face the camshaft. With the distributor in this position, oil will spray both the distributor and the cam gear to significantly reduce gear wear. This trick can improve gear life for any type of camshaft. Ford engines have an oil passage plug that points directly at the distributor gear. A .025-inch hole can be drilled into the plug to lubricate these gears.

oilpassageplugs.gif

dottodot.gif


http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Valvetr ... metry.aspx


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-train-clearances-and-problems.528/

push rod to short
WIDE SWEEP ON VALVE TIP FROM ROCKER ADDS ADDITIONAL,
SIDE LOAD WEAR

long.jpg

push rod to long
correct.jpg


push rod length correct

AS CLOSE TO CENTER AS POSSIBLE BUT BEING CENTERED IS LESS IMPORTANT THAN MINIMAL SWEEP ON THE VALVE TIP< INDICATING MINIMAL SIDE LOADING

vspr1.jpg


I buy most of my replacement valve springs from these guys

http://www.racingsprings.com/
(866) 799-9417
http://www.racingsprings.com/Staff
heres their ph#
Toll Free (866) 799-9417
I always just order the springs retainers valve locks and spring seats as a package deal (NOT CHEAP BUT EVERYTHING WORKS AND FITS) then you just need shims under the valve spring seats occasionally to get the correct installed height

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900013/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900012/overview/

SUM-900012_xla.jpg

btvalve.png


springt1.jpg

springt2.jpg

springt3.jpg

springt4.jpg

springt5.jpg

springt6.jpg

springt7.jpg



PRO-66776_xl.jpg


http://www.buxtonengineering.com/on_head_valve_spring_tester.php

http://www.racingsprings.com/1300-Series-/1300-Series-/sku/33

http://www.racingsprings.com/1500-series/sku/34

good quality valve springs are fairly expensive, youll generally pay $250-$450 for decent valve springs and many guys start looking for far cheaper imported sets, that are of lower quality, at bargain prices, the problem is that you generally find a set, and comparing the price it makes it hard for some guys to remember YOU GENERALLY GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR AND THERE'S A DARN GOOD REASON THE IMPORTED PARTS ARE CHEAPER
10-13.jpg


drawsdf.jpg


read these links
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/sucp-0202-rocker-arm-ratio/

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-0703-rocker-arm-comparison/

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/roller-rocker-ratio-test/
rocker003vb4.jpg


rocker003vb1.gif

rocker003vb2.jpg

Crower has developed a new rocker arm to cure many ailments, including the one we ran into. By relocating the hole in the rocker trunion (left), Crower eliminated the problem of pushrods hitting the heads. This also moves the rocker away from the retainer and can correct the problems associated with using longer valves and rotated valve angles.

vsmt1.jpg

vsmt2.jpg

vsmt3.jpg

vamt4a.jpg



viewtopic.php?f=44&t=2839&p=7344&hilit=adjustable+guide#p7344

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=126&hilit=louis+rocker
adjustablesbc.jpg


and you may need too use the correct adjustable guide plates when you find the push-rod alignment is in need of minor tweaking to get the clearance and geometry correct
the heads and rockers used obviously effect the required clearance, but you'll usually want at least 60 thousands clearance on the push rods to slot measurements and you'll want to rotate the engine thru two complete revolutions while verifying that clearance, while watching the push-rod geometry as it changes as the rockers move thru their arcs
lifter1jpg.jpg

STUD-12.jpg

louis1.jpg


sguide_plate.jpg

pushrodbind.jpg


REMEMBER TO CAREFULLY CHECK THE PUSH ROD TOO CYLINDER HEAD GUIDE SLOT AND CYLINDER HEAD CASTING CLEARANCES,IF THE PUSH ROD BINDS IT MAY CAUSE A LOSS OF OIL FLOW THROUGH THE PUSH ROD, FROM LIFTER TOO ROCKER OR THE LIFTER TO WEAR RAPIDLY

checking all valve train clearance issues in mandatory

louis.jpg


using a louis tool, this tool is a GUIDE /tool for use with a high quality DRILL,its made of HARDENED STEEL that FORCES the DRILL BIT to drill thru the head to correctly lengthen the pushrod slot for increased clearance, they usually come WITH INSTRUCTIONS AND THE NECESSARY DRILL

you should also keep in mind that a roller cam valve train with the same lift and duration can provide a good deal more port flow and resulting power.
iskylifter.jpg

flatvsroller.jpg

FlatVsRollerChart.gif

but even roller cams can wipe out lobes if the valve train components or valve train lubrication,and geometry is not set up correctly
camlobe1.jpg

camlobe2.jpg


most sbc factory heads will allow a lift of about .470 with the factory springs and clearances, a few will allow up to .530, but the only way you can be sure is to verify clearances

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181

valvespringinstalled.gif


ValveSpringClearance01.jpg


springheightcheck.jpg

cca-4929.jpg

using a valve spring micrometer and measuring spring bind helps verify clearance


the result of not verifying valve train clearances,full lubrication and valve spring load rates
valveinpiston.jpg

valvespring3.JPG


you really need to talk with the tech guys at CRANE, ISKY, CROWER,ERSON,ETC, about your goals and matching components to the application before making any changes, to the valve train or selecting the stock OEM components based on the lower cost, some OEM roller lifters and cams are INFERIOR quality and HEAVIER than the CRANE, ISKY, CROWER, ERSON, ETC aftermarket components, the OEM roller lifters that use the dog bone and spider retainer system tend to limit your rpms and choice of cam lift and duration more than the aftermarket components designed for higher rpms and lift, naturally the heads and valve springs and rockers, push-rods, and rocker stud girdles (IF USED) and the geometry must match the application, and as the spring loads increase the use of a BILLET CORE CAM is advised, no OEM component hydraulic roller lifter valve train is likely to work well much pastv 5800rpm-6000rpm, but the better aftermarket designs can add several hundered rpm to the power band with the correct valve springs and components being used and care must be taken to assure lots of cooling oil flow, the correct clearances and valve train geometry ,and not getting into valve float rpms or you'll quickly destroy a roller valve train


lifterretainers.jpg

these hydraulic roller lifters rarely work well past 5800rpm-6000rpm MOST GUYS WHO INSIST THEY DO, don,t realize that the lifters are not maintaining firm contact with the cam lobes,or the shock loads on the valve train cause problems,which they may not see until they have component failure problems and depending on wildly varying components and rpm levels and frequency of use those components may last for years or only days under such abuse

retrohydraulicrollerlifters.jpg

this type will frequently add 200-300rpm to the valve trains max rpm stability

valvetrain_components+valvesprings.jpg

swapping to SOLID ROLLER LIFTERS , can frequently add over a 1000 rpm more with the correct cam lobe and stiffer valve train springs and components


keep in mind that weak link in the chain idea, in many engines with upgraded valve springs the rocker studs benefit a great deal from a stud girdle as it significantly reduces rocker stud deflection, certainly by the time your looking at using more than 160 lbs of valve spring pressure use of a rocker stud girdle and quality roller rockers, and the correct geometry, clearances and checking for significant oil flow over the valve springs becomes almost mandatory to maintain durability


091.jpg

082.jpg

088.jpg

lg_car28.JPG

camlobe3.jpg

camlobeq.jpg


yes I know your most likely skipping reading thru the sub links, in this and other threads, but thats a mistake that can easily cost you hundreds of dollars and weeks of work you could easily avoid, knowing what your looking at and how and why it functions as it does is critical to long term durability
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=196

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1376

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=399

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=5902

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=5341

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4957

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2746

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=528

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=553
 
Last edited by a moderator:

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
Re: sellecting valve springs

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/sellecting-cylinder-heads.796/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...le-that-don-t-use-resources.12125/#post-58374

HEY GRUMPYVETTE, I've found that I have a collapsed lifter ( I'm almost positive) and as long as I'm in the engine I'm going to get rid of the flat tappet and go with a hyd. roller. The current one is 218/224 duration @ .50 with .462/.469 lift with 1.5 rockers. The one I'm looking at is 222/230 duration @ .50 with .518/.539 lift with 1.5 rockers. I'm pretty sure it will work with my computer. My concerns are---the valve springs I have are good to .575" lift and have 105 lbs seat pressure. The guy @ Crane cams said to just add .030" shims under the springs to get to 150 lbs seat pressure. With these shims, won't I be too close to completely compressing the springs with the increased lift? Also, how do I figure out the length of the new push rods? (I'm not an engine guru :D ). Thanks in advance!
cambutclear.jpg

c60462.jpg

0106em_bbshootout_14_z.jpg

this cam buttons correctly installed but the retainer plate tabs have not been bent up to lock the bolt heads from rotating
plastig1.JPG

plastig2.png

Plastig3.jpg

plastig4.jpg

plastig5.jpg

plastig6.jpg

plastig7.jpg

plastig8.jpg


calipersaa.jpg



TFS-9001.jpg

12cal.jpg


heres a bit of useful related push rod length info
Big Block Chevy, Standard Length Big Block Intake 3/8" / .080" 8.275"
295-7941-8 Big Block Chevy, Standard Length Big Block Exhaust 3/8" / .080" 9.250"
295-7969-8 Big Block Chevy, Standard Big Block +.100" Long Intake 3/8" / .080" 8.375"
295-7979-8 Big Block Chevy, Standard Big Block +.100" Long Exhaust 3/8" / .080" 9.350"
295-7951-8 Big Block Chevy, Standard Length Big Block Tall Deck Intake 3/8" / .080" 8.675"
295-7961-8 Big Block Chevy, Standard Length Big Block Tall Deck Exhaust 3/8" / .080" 9.650"
295-7800 V8 396-454 Retro Fit Pushrod Set, Intake & Exhaust, 1965-Present
3/8" / .080"
3/8" / .080" 7.725 Int.
8.675 Exh
295-7913-16 Small Block Chevy, Standard Length Small Block Chevy 3/8" / .080" 7.800"
295-7984-16 Small Block Chevy, +.100" Long 3/8" / .080" 7.900"
295-7934-16 Big Block Ford, Standard Length Ford `72-'78 429-460 3/8" / .080" 8.550"
295-7951-16 Big Block Ford, Standard Length Ford `69-'71 429-460 3/8" / .080" 8.675"
295-7582-16 Oldsmobile, Std Length 455 5/16" 9.550"

sucp_0202_03_z+engine_parts_pushrods+diagram.jpg

sguide_plate.jpg

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66485
louist.jpg

These Proform pushrod slotting tools are designed to elongate the pushrod slot in the cylinder head. They will make room for higher ratio rocker arms. Use these tools with a drill and a 5/16 in. drill bit to elongate the pushrod slot.
pro-66485_w.jpg



correct length..................too short............................too long


General Valve Spring Pressure Recommendations*
Camshaft Type Seat pressure (pounds) Open pressure (pounds)
Hydraulic and solid flat tappet 100-130+ 270-350+
Hydraulic roller .................... 105-135+ 280-350+
Solid roller (street pattern)..... 150-180+ 450-600+
Solid roller (race pattern)....... 190-300+ 600-1000+

the thinner the shim the closer to the heads surface, it should be installed, in any stack of shims under the valve spring, seat, and theres no reason you can,t simply remove the .003 shim to get the correct clearance if thats whats required to do so!
the hardened STEEL VALVE SPRING cup is designed to locate the spring and not wear easily if the spring oscillates on its seat at high rpms, the copper shims will quickly disintegrate if in direct contact with the oscillating valve spring base.
Obviously you never want to operate an engine up into valve float rpms where valve train damage is certain to eventually result and a constant spray of oil on the valve springs extends your valve trains life expectancy

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=6491&p=20681&hilit=spring+cooling+spray#p20681

softshims.jpg

here is what results from soft valve spring shims in direct contact with oscillating valve spring base

springshim.jpg


watch videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_REQ1PUM ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=019Jyn9o ... re=related


PROMAX
http://www.competitionproducts.com/...c-Bare-Pair/productinfo/PMX9317/#.V2m23PkrLcc

notice how the valve springs glow red hot if not constantly bathed in oil flow, notice how the valve springs rotate in the valve seats, most people find it hard to believe that more than 40% of engine heat is generated in the valve train

READ THE LINKS
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181&p=215#p215

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-train-clearances-and-problems.528/

http://www.supercarsunlimited.com/info/ ... prings.htm

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engi ... ewall.html

the .030 shims reduce the valve lift clearance from .575 to .545 and add the necessary load to the valve train, NOTHING in the push rod geometry changes, no new push rods are needed, due to adding shims.

0607em_17_z+engine_assembly+shims.jpg


roller lifters being taller require shorter push rods, I was not trying to answer that part of the question as that should be obvious...sorry I was not clearer
softshims.jpg

keep in mind STAYING OUT OF VALVE FLOAT RPMS ,use of the correct installed height valve spring height, spring load rates and hardened shims and are required between the valve spring base and the spring locator seat/cup under the valve springs that locate and protect the cylinder heads or at higher rpms the valve springs harmonics , make the valve spring base vibrate ,and eventually eat thru the soft shims
0607phr_32_z+camshaft_basics+beehive_valve_springs.jpg

0607phr_31_z+camshaft_basics+valve_springs.jpg

0607phr_36_z+camshaft_basics+spring_surge.jpg

springyu1.jpg

springyu2.jpg

springyu3.jpg

springyu4.jpg

springyu5.jpg

its not horsepower, its the stress on the valve train, that makes a rocker stud girdle and its increased rigidity useful,
and thats more closely related to average stress levels, RPM and VALVE SPRING LOAD RATES
any time your occasionally exceeding 6000rpm or getting close too 330 lbs of open valve load rate Id strongly suggest screw in rocker studs
any time your intentionally exceeding 6000rpm and exceeding 350 lbs of open valve spring rate a rocker stud girdle might be a good idea.
and if your regularly exceeding 6500rpm and 400 lbs of open valve spring load rate its use is going to become almost mandatory
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66950

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-141010

BEEHIVE SPRINGS GIVE A GOOD DEAL MORE ROCKER TO RETAINER CLEARANCE

in an ideal world the rocker pushes strait down the valve stem center line to reduce friction,but having the rocker wear pattern centered on the valve tip is far LESS important than having it rather narrow indicating less side thrust or drag on the valve
and having the rocker geometry a bit off as long as the clearances are correct, is unlikely to cause noise issues as much as long term valve guide wear issues.
Noise is usually the result of clearance issues like the slot in the rocker or rocker ball or body binding on the rocker stud or rocker adjustment nut, or the valve retainer touching the rocker body or spring bind etc. or badly adjusted valves , and Id bet 80% of the engines I see have improperly adjusted valves of valve train clearance issues

for those that don,t know, these are BEEHIVE springs that allow a lighter and smaller titanium retainer and the basic design makes the springs far less subject to harmonics at mid too upper mid rpm ranges at lower load levels

0607phr_31_z+camshaft_basics+valve_springs.jpg



left is a BEEHIVE SPRING,with small light weight retainer, RIGHT SIDE STANDARD SPRING standard retainer
http://www.racingsprings.com/
(beehive)

Would .006" be enough room to spare in spring compression"

that depends on both how accurate the valve train measurements are and how they calculate the clearance,......normally when the valves springs max lift height is listed or posted rated at a .575 lift,etc. theres a .050-.060 thousands extra clearance between the true spring stack height and the advertised max valve lift IE your advertised .575" max lift spring is designed or has a total of .575"+.050"=.625" between max open height and max valve spring height
.006 clearance would not normally be used or suggested as safe, youll need to know the true coil stack and true installed heights as installed

example look here

http://www.racingsprings.com/PDF/beehive.pdf

look at the first spring listed

max lift is listed as .600 lift
installed height 1.800
max lift @ 1.200 to get that .600 lift
BUT COIL STACK IS AT 1.140, thats .060 more, giving the necessary clearance

just be aware that the retainer to valve seal or retainer to valve guide or rocker slot to rocker stud or a few other clearance issues might limit what you can actually use as lift with the valve train, and that valve keepers come with different locking groove heights allowing the valve spring retainer to have the valve spring installed heights

keepers.jpg


Most valve springs are reasonably cheap, so I usually strongly recommend getting the correct clearance work done to the heads and using springs at least very similar to those the cam manufacturer recommends for the application in both clearance and load rates, theres not much sense in potentially ruining an engine with valve control issues if it can be avoided.
yes standard springs generally will FUNCTION with a mild roller cam, but the lifter weight and ramp speeds won,t be ideally matched so your better off using the manufacturers suggested springs or at least very similar to those the cam manufacturer recommends for the application in both clearance and load rates.

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181

http://www.racingsprings.com/
(beehive)

http://www.ovaltracking.com/tech/2006/i ... ive-3.html
MC-BEEHIVE.06-l.gif

051.JPG


VERIFY YOUR ROCKER TO RETAINER CLEARANCES


rockertoretainer.jpg

rockertoretainer1.jpg

RockerGeometry.jpg


man-42133_w.jpg

Proper push rod length is absolutely critical for peak performance—minimizing bent or broken valve stems, guide wear, and energy-wasting valve side-loading friction.
With the lifter located on the round base circle, position the Push Rod length Checker (make sure you have the Checker with the proper diameter hole) over the stud. Ideally the Checker should contact the top of the push rod and the valve tip evenly at the same moment, should the Checker contact the push rod first, measure the gap between the front of the checker and the valve tip, and purchase a shorter push rod of the correct length. Should the Checker contact the valve tip first, measure the gap between the back of the Checker and the top of the push rod, and purchase a longer push rod
prctool.png

http://www.summitracing.com/search/...d-length-checkers?autoview=SKU&ibanner=SREPD5
Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66789 SBC 3/8" rocker studs


Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66790 SBC 7/16" rocker studs

Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66806 BBC 7/16" rocker studs


after youve selected the new cam and new springs and thats fine but in most cases new springs require the clearances be verified and that usually requires new valve spring shims,retainers,keepers or machine work on the heads to get the correct installed valve spring height, spring load rate and clearances, failure to do so usually results in valve train problems.
many valve train parts failures are the result of clearance or geometry issues, or insufficient lubrication, factors that must be checked, before use.
ID suggest you always closely examined each of the roller lifters before re-use, looking for signs of wear but in about 75% of the cases hydraulic roller lifters with under about 15,000-20,000 miles of use should be fine for re-use
in many cases, of early valve train failure its simply a lack of taking the time to verify clearances and geometry or even the knowledge of how to do it correctly,or lack of the tools required that gets cam swaps into trouble, parts fail, and theres sometimes no easy to find reason, but if you don,t get the clearances and geometry right before use, your stacking the odds heavily against long term durability


youll also want to verify piston to valve clearances and correct quench

valclear2a.jpg

vcl1.jpg

vcl2.jpg

p173610.jpg

PTVC_05.jpg

keep in mind that the intake valve usually starts to open well before the piston reaches TDC on its exhaust stroke, and continues to extend out towards the piston after it passes TDC and follows it down into the bore as it descends on the intake stroke, generally closest contact points are in the 20 degrees btdc too 20 degrees atdc, obviously exact potential clearances are dependent on both cam timing and cam indexing

ID ALSO POINT OUT THAT A ROCKER STUD GIRDLE ADDS A GOOD DEAL MORE STABILITY TO THE VALVE TRAIN
viewtopic.php?f=70&t=4836&p=13219&hilit=indexing+plugs#p13219
girdle9.jpg

http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/comp-cams-how-valve-spring-tech-2047.html

http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Valvetrain/ValveSpringTech.aspx

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/47631/the_truth_about_valve_springs.aspx

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/t...heads_valvetrain/0612ch_head_build/index.html

springload.jpg



springshim.jpg


springheightcheck.jpg


sealinstall.jpg


springheight.jpg


installedheight.gif
 
Last edited by a moderator:

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
Re: sellecting valve springs

if you don,t think use of the correct valve springs and rockers matters heres the dyno results on a 496 BBC chevy engine with a new set of valve springs and roller rockers, obviously if correctly selected,they can make a difference
betvspa.jpg


THINKING OF ADDING A REV KIT?
first Id point out that adding a rev kit is expensive and won.t do a darn thing for your application but INCREASE the loads on the roller lifters thus INCREASE the likely hood of failure since your limited to under 6000rpm, where a correctly designed valve train with aftermarket beehive springs, light weight titanium retainers and a stud girdle mounted to stabilize roller rockers is likely to perform just fine, especially if your trying to maximize dependability
Ive seen after market rev kits come apart, under high revs but they were NOT AIR FLOW RESEARCH brand, rev kits are designed to hold the lifters on the lobe ramps at high inertial loads, under 6000rpm the correct valve train should easily do that without a rev kit.

http://airflowresearch.com/hydra_rev.php

http://www.flatlanderracing.com/revkitsafr.html

stock springs and a stock valve train may get marginal above 6000rpm but a correctly designed hydraulic roller valve train can easily handle 6000rpm
if your worried get shaft mounted rocker arms and the beehive springs and titanium retainers

http://www.racingsprings.com/
(beehive)

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.c ... y_Code=BEE

the ideal answer is not to overload the rollers on the cam with heavier loads but to lower the weight/enertia the valve train is subjected too, and control harmonics, and lighten the valve trains tendency to want to allow the lifter to lose contact with the cam lobe ramp, adding a rev kit increases the loads on the cam and roller lifter, under 6000rpm thats not necessarily a good idea when theres other options

beehivespring.jpg


for those that don,t know, these are BEEHIVE springs that allow a lighter and smaller titanium retainer and the basic design makes the springs far less subject to harmonics at mid too upper mid rpm ranges at lower load levels

0607phr_31_z+camshaft_basics+valve_springs.jpg

http://www.racingsprings.com/
(beehive)

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0607phr_camshaft_basics/photo_32.html

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/sellecting-cylinder-heads.796/

0607phr_32_z+camshaft_basics+beehive_valve_springs.jpg



degreewheel4.jpg

checklifter.jpg


checklifter3.jpg

timingchain4.jpg


http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/eng ... index.html

clearancefail.jpg

bbcstudss.jpg

P1010018-2.jpg

manley said:
Coil Bind And Valve Float

Another area where large gains in valve spring longevity can be realized is in paying close attention to coil bind. Coil bind is a condition in which the maximum lift of the valve exceeds the maximum allowable compressed height of the valve spring before the spring coils contact each other and create a bind. Running a valve spring in a condition where it has reached coil bind is going to instantly create very destructive forces within the valve train.

However, running a valve spring in a condition where it has excessive clearance between the spring coils at maximum valve lift can also contribute to surprisingly destructive forces being generated within the valve train, especially in the valve spring itself.

Classic engine building 101 typically teaches that a valve spring should maintain a bare minimum of .060-inch clearance between the spring coils at maximum valve lift, and that more clearance is usually better because additional clearance is typically thought to provide additional safety margin. However, excess clearance (typically over .100-inch) between the spring coils will allow a phenomenon known as “spring surge” to take place as the valve is being opened and closed.

In the occurrence of spring surge the middle portion of the spring coils can oscillate or “bounce” uncontrollably between the upper and lower portions of the valve spring as the valve is opening and closing. This surging motion reduces the stability of the valve spring. Reduction in spring stability can induce premature valve float.

Valve float is an extremely destructive condition where the valve spring loses the ability to control the valve motion and, consequently, the valve can slam repeatedly into the valve seat instead of closing in one smooth motion. During valve float the valve can also possibly collide with the piston during the opening and closing events, especially at elevated RPM levels. As Manley’s Bob Schmalz says, “Valves can take all the open pressure you can give them. They see the most stress in valve float.
Even if valve float is avoided, the phenomenon of valve spring surge will almost always result in a bare minimum of prematurely broken valve springs. As such, Manley typically recommends that valve springs should be installed and run at .070-inch from coil bind when the valve is at maximum lift. In testing and experimenting with a wide range of installed heights, Manley has witnessed a Stock Eliminator engine increase its effective ceiling by 300 RPM when running the valve springs at close to coil bind.

http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...k-valve-spring-technology-manley-performance/

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-1011-what-you-need-to-know-about-valvesprings/

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2010/01/performance-valve-springs-and-retainers/

http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Valvetrain/ValveSpringTech.aspx

http://www.racingsprings.com/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/sucp-0107-cylinder-head-correction/

http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/keep-the-valvetrain-on-track/

http://www.aa1car.com/library/performance_valvetrain.htm

http://www.sbintl.com/tech_library/articles/understanding_high_performance_valvetrain_technology.pdf
 
Last edited by a moderator:

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
Re: sellecting valve springs

just a few points
file:///C:/Users/Marge/Downloads/Jim%20Miller%20Mid%20Lift%20VTG.pdf
http://homepages.rpi.edu/~des/Rocker_Report.pdf
http://www.cranecams.com/bulletins_listview.php?s_id=7

camidA.jpg

most manufacturers IDENTIFY OR mark cams under the timing gear mount surface
actually verify clearances and rocker geometry
at
seated valve
rpo1.JPG


mid lift

rpo2.JPG


full lift
rpo3.JPG

some roller rocker too retainer combo clearance issues cause problems easily solved with beehive springs and smaller retainer diameters
beehivesprcl.jpg

for several years even stock BBC engines ,(the markVI and mark V) as opposed to the (mark IV earlier BBC engines)
also don,t use adjustable rocker arms if your running a stock cam and valve train with stock O.E.M. heads you probably can get by without them,
swap to a higher lift cam and a longer duration and aftermarket heads and better valve strings and in my opinion,
you would be very foolish to build and use a performance BBC engine without adjustable push rod guide plates
what you really should do is order these
Dart 27001230-4 - Dart Pushrod Guideplates

301-27001230-4.jpg



viewtopic.php?f=44&t=2839&p=7344&hilit=adjustable+guide#p7344

longslot.jpg


long slot rockers are far less likely to bind on rocker studs

witness rub mark should be narrow, having it close to the valve center line is not as critical as having it narrow but try to have it close to center
http://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/molybdenum_disulfide_characteristics.htm

when assembling any engines valve train component parts and bearing surfaces,should be carefully cleaned and soaked with moly spray and then coated with moly assembly lube prior to assembly, Moly exists as microscopic hexagonal crystal platelets Several molecules make up one of these platelets. A single molecule of Moly contains two sulfur atoms and one molybdenum atom. Moly platelets are attracted to metal surfaces. This attraction and the force of moving engine parts rubbing across one another provide the necessary thermochemical reaction necessary for Moly to form an overlapping protective coating like armor on all of your engine parts. This protective armor coating has a number of properties that are very beneficial for your engine.

squeeze4.png


The Moly platelets that make up the protective layers on your engine surfaces slide across one another very easily. Instead of metal rubbing against metal, you have Moly platelets moving across one another protecting and lubricating the metal engine parts.

This coating effectively fills in the microscopic pores that cover the surface of all engine parts, making them smoother. This feature is important in providing an effective seal on the combustion chamber. By filling in the craters and pores Moly improves this seal allowing for more efficient combustion and engine performance.
nosqueeze.jpeg

This overlapping coating of Moly also gives protection against loading (perpendicular) forces. These forces occur on the bearings, and lifters. The high pressures that occur between these moving parts tend to squeeze normal lubricants out.


222645.jpg


molysp2.JPG

molysp1.JPG



rpo4.JPG


lets be clear, before going further, if your rockers bind on the rocker studs or push rod guide plates, and you have verified proper rocker geometry, with the correct push rod ;length, your describing the rocker binding at location (B) not location (A) or (C) , location (A) is frequently the result of using the wrong adjustment nuts with your rockers, this tends to bind the upper rocker slot to the sides of the adjustment nuts,frequently when you swap to a different style to use a rocker stud girdle.
location (C) can be avoided with BEEHIVE type valve springs and retainers OR machining rockers for additional retainer to rocker clearance.

rpo1x.JPG

The answer to selecting the proper valve length in relation to the cam lift, and valve spring load rates, depends on the engine valve train geometry and the cylinder head design,
it differs from intake to exhaust on most engines also.
I've usually found longer valves are required if the valve lift exceeds about .630, but theres no rock solid rule, you need to do some research and call your machine shop and the cylinder head manufacture. the load rate also plays a significant part in that decision, thinner valve spring seats, is not always an option, as higher load rates require thicker castings for structural rigidity.
valve lift alone withing reasonable limits, has little to do with the need for longer valves, but as the lift increases the difference between the spring installed height and its spring bind or coil stack obviously changes.
if your standard valve spring has lets say a 1.70 installed height and a 1.20 coil bind or stack height you would generally be looking at .500 difference, subtract the .060 minimum clearance,
added to prevent binding issues for coil bind, that only leaves you .440 useful valve clearance.
now you can machine the heads in the valve spring seat area only minimally as the valve spring seats are over the coolant passages and generally ,
the manufacturers will tell you you can only machine the valve seat so far from the O.E.M. original location,
and in many cylinder heads you can't machine deeper without reducing the heads functional strength or causing problems.
if you can,t machine down into the valve spring seat, your other option is a longer valve stem, or if you just need about .040-.050 maybe you get by with off-set valve locks, or retainers, and longer push rods and valve lash caps.
but most machine shops would prefer the longer valves and longer push-rods to maintain the proper valve train geometry.
valves are generally available . .100,..200, .300 longer lengths for popular engines and you can certainly use a micrometer to measure similar valves from a different engine, if the proper length is not easily available.
be aware that theres both different valve stem diameters, valve lock location, valve lock designs, different intake and exhaust valve steels that you can,t interchange.
one of the old performance tricks some guys used to use on a BBC, engines with turbos, was to replace the 1.88 exhaust valves with 2.00 intake valves from a 430 lincoln engines that were made from exhaust steel.
vspr1.jpg


Installedsp.jpg


drawsdf.jpg


portsd2.jpg

before as cast
portse1.jpg

if thats the case the push rods or the rocker studs or the guide plates are wrong for the application OR you never had the cast rocker bosses in the heads correctly machined for the screw in studs

studs1.jpg

standard screw in rocker studs to use with or without guide plates require the rocker stud boss be machined for required clearance
millboss1.jpg

EACH type of engine and every set of rocker guide plates and studs will effect how far the rocker boss must be machined for clearance but on most sbc engines the boss is machined down about .360, CHECK WITH YOUR MACHINIST AND HAVE THE PARTS AVAILABLE TO MEASURE
studs2.jpg

there ARE screw in rocker studs that can be used WITHOUT machining the bossed but they CAN NOT be used with guide plates and DO frequently result in cracked rocker bosses.

studs3a.jpg

rsm1.jpg

rsm2.jpg

stock cast rocker bosses must be machines to gain clearance for guide plates and screw in studs


setting up the installed height and clearances and selecting the correct load rates is both a well understood and reasonably easy to do procedure, requiring the valve seats ,correct shims, springs retainers, locks and machine work.
if you know the required installed heights and clearances and spring load rates its just not that difficult for a decent shop to order and assemble the correct parts, or do the required guide or seat mods

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ck-chevy-gen-v-vi-to-adjustable-rockers.4564/

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/FAQ/ValveSprings.asp
265_VSpringII.gif

400_SpringIllustration.gif


hydraulic roller lifters tend to stay in the lifter bores when a push-rod breaks they tend to move up just far enough to allow the lobe too pass under the roller , the link bar tends to prevent them from being thrown loose in the lifter gallery

these come in different designs but youll want ones matching your application
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-66789/
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part ... -Checkers/

man-42133_w.jpg

be aware that the tools are rocker stud diam. specific, and engine specific , so just be sure the tool selected matches the application, and in the case of the mark IV BBC theres two sides to the tool as theres two push rod lengths used

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66806/overview/
pro-66806.jpg

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2091

cca-7901-1.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-7901-1/

load rates over about 135lbs seat and 450lbs on the ramp nose tend to be both un-necessary and put a significant extra wear on the valve train

heres the hydraulic roller cam IM running on the street, it pulls to 6300rpm just fine with out a rev kit

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=119661&lvl=2&prt=5


heres the springs THEY SUGGEST YOU USE

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=3&prt=123&action=partSpec&partNumber=99838-16

NOTICE the seat and full lift load rates

heres some info

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...g-block-pushrod-guide-plates.4596/#post-12263

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=valveSpringOpen

btw Im running different springs that spec at 145 lbs seat and UNDER 390 lbs at full lift with 1.6:1 ratio rockers at .595 actual lift, and pull 6300 rpm just fine

http://www.racingsprings.com/PDF/beehive.pdf
similar too the #1520, but Im running TRICKFLOW ALUMINUM HEADS factory set up for 1.45 diam. springs that were custom machined and clearanced


heres a different cam I tried



notice the suggested spring pressures are even lower but again under 400 lbs at max lift and that cam made more upper rpm hp but lacked the low rpm tq I wanted on the street application
IMG_2071.jpg

always call the cylinder head manufacturer for their input on rocker stud girdles,BEFORE PURCHASING THEM< because rocker stud spacing, and stud angles can vary, between head designs and models

cca-4009.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-11759-16

cranes gold roller rockers are decent quality rockers for a small or big block chevy,Ive used those, ERSON, CROWER and COMP CAMS ROLLER ROCKERS, many of them come with jam nuts that require a 3/16" allen key
and look a great deal like these posted here below

cca-4604-16_w_xl.jpg

but these are NOT locking jam nuts designed to work with a rocker stud girdle
TFS-30400700_xl.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-3 ... /overview/
BTW.IF YOUR BUILDING A SBC
http://brodix.com/heads-2/small-block-chevrolet-compatible-heads/ik-series
http://www.jegs.com/i/Brodix/158/1021001/10002/-1

brodix ph# 1-479-394-1075 (ALWAYS VERIFY PART NUMBERS SEVERAL,
TIMES FROM AT LEAST TWO SOURCES, BEFORE ORDERING PARTS)

the brodix rock stud girdle is part # BR-6435 and LIST price is about $230 you can get it for less if you shop carefully
BE AWARE that the I.K. 200 heads were shipped with BOTH 3/8" and 7/16" rocker studs ,
and the poly locks for the 7/16" rocker studs ONLY fit that rocker stud girdle
obviously you need to verify what your heads have before you order the matching rocker stud girdle
Verifying your engines clearances, and rocker geometry, and use of A rocker stud girdle and high quality roller rockers go a long way towards maintaining valve train durability
IMG_2071.jpg

caa-4014.jpg

rocker stud girdles require significantly longer shank jam nuts , but you need to mount the rocker stud girdle up out of the way so the upper surface of the rockers can,t touch the lower surface of the stud girdle at full lift

crn-11759-16_w.jpg

cranes gold roller rockers are decent quality rockers for a small or big block chevy,Ive used those, ERSON, CROWER and COMP CAMS ROLLER ROCKERS, many of them come with jam nuts that require a 3/16" allen key
and look a great deal like these posted here below

cca-4604-16_w_xl.jpg

but these are NOT locking jam nuts designed to work with a rocker stud girdle
TFS-30400700_xl.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-3 ... /overview/
tricgir.png


rocker stud girdles require significantly longer shank jam nuts , but you need to mount the rocker stud girdle up out of the way so the upper surface of the rockers can,t touch the lower surface of the stud girdle at full lift
notice the recessed hex on the rocker stud lock nut used with the girdle, cranes roller rockers require a adjustment nut with a .600 diameter , to keep the rocker with its slightly larger slut from deflecting to the side, as the body of the jam nut helps stabilize the rocker , and the nuts are made with matched thread pitch and a stud girdle with the correct stud spacing.
stud girdles significantly strengthen the rocker studs because all 8 studs on a cylinder head resist movement of each individual stud as its subjected to stress as the cam lobe compresses the valve spring and the stud tries to deflect, not just a single stud.... shop carefully and ask lots of questions and its usually a good idea to buy matching components from a single manufacturer if possible for all the valve train components as it tends to avoid mis-matched parts causing clearance or geometry issues.

cc-300-8244_w_xl.jpg


many guys would like to retain short valve covers or use original valve covers, but use roller rockers
obviously the clearance issue depends on both the valve covers and rockers used in the application, but in most cases you can your full roller rockers if you DON,t use the tall jam nut locking adjustment nut designs, as its the jam nuts not the rockers causing the clearance issue
arp-300-8245_w.jpg

standard long jam nuts are the cause of the clearance issue most of the time
cca-1321n-1_w.jpg

shorter lock nuts provide required clearance

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ck-chevy-gen-v-vi-to-adjustable-rockers.4564/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-1321N-1/


vemp_0703_12_z+corvette_rocker_arms+roller_tip_comparison.jpg


cro-73635.jpg


stf-63900_w.jpg


stf-63910_w.jpg


THERE ARE VALVE COVER SPACERS AVAILABLE ALSO
its NOT TYPICAL on the cheaper cams but its NOT hardly what you might call rare on cams that try to basically maximize results, and the current roller cam designs, because if you think about it the lobe is forced open as the roller rolls up and over the cam lobe but only spring pressure returns the valve most of the way to the cylinder head seat and they don,t want it to slam down and bounce so the lobe designs can be ground differently.An Asymmetrical cam has opening and closing ramps that are unlike and unequal. This profiles usually found on high performance cams and offers a high velocity opening and a lower velocity closing ramp in order to snap the valve open quickly and then set it back down more gently.
roller cam lobe designs are more complex than flat tapper cam lobes simply because the roller lifter allows much more precise valve open and timing events,
lobes on a roller cam,are generally asymmetrical, in the better roller cam lobe designs,
as its more important to open the valve fast, to maximize cylinder fill rates,
but reduce the valve seating/sealing, timing velocity, too prevent the valve bouncing off the seat as or after its closed,
this factor helps stabilize cylinder scavenging and valve train durability,
and stability but should not effect the software dyno results
ascam1.gif

ascam2.jpg

pistonposition3.jpg


castvsbillet.jpg

lobe8large.jpg


http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...mmendation-from-erson-compared-w-crower.4530/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-the-extra-cost-vs-a-flat-tappet-design.3802/


the forged steel rockers generally clear in most application if the short nuts are used

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=126&p=1193&hilit=ratio+rockers+louis#p1193

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ck-chevy-gen-v-vi-to-adjustable-rockers.4564/

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=399

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=528

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=7716

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=5902

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10696&p=46481#p46481

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4957

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2661

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2746

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181
 

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grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
Re: sellecting valve springs

30228b.gif

this charts based on a 350-383 Chevy or similar size engine, but its a good rough guide on most engines under 400cid displacement on matching the duration to the intended operational rpm band , remember, you’ll still need to verify ALL clearances, valve train geometry and spring load rates with any new cam install.
on engines over about 430-440 cubic inches of displacement youll need to add some duration & lift for increased flow rates to get the same basic power band
 

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
Re: sellecting valve springs

The BEEHIVE springs and TITANIUM retainers ,(On a street car engine), can easily add both several hundred RPM and several hundred dollars to the engine cost/potential.
In some cases thats worth the extra cost,but in most cases I doubt youll spend enough time pushing the upper rpm limits on the engine to justify the cost, over well matched conventional dual valve springs.
And for the same basic reason guys tend to build 383 SBC and 496 BBC combos rather than 302 SBC and 427 BBC engines, the much better low and mid rpm torque curves are far more useful on the street strip combos most guys build than the few hundred extra RPMS that you might get, now
obviously having BOTH, the INCREASED displacement and the lighter spring load rates that still maintain valve control is a PLUS, and theres little doubt theres advantages in running beehive springs in some cases
but its been my experience that both a 383 sbc and 496BBC designed to run pump octane gas, can spin up into the mid 6K rpm range, with well matched conventional dual valve springs before the the BEEHIVE springs and TITANIUM retainers become and advantage and on the street thats usually not done frequently.
keep in mind that with well matched conventional dual valve springs,and spring dampers most manufacturers supply in their cam installation kits if you buy the suggested matched components, the harmonics tend to cancel out some of the problems seen with single springs
SUM-900013_xla.jpg


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900013/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900012/overview/

SUM-900012_xla.jpg

btvalve.png


springt1.jpg

springt2.jpg

springt3.jpg

springt4.jpg

springt5.jpg

springt6.jpg

springt7.jpg

IMG_2071.jpg


youll eventually want a few tools like a valve spring tester and spring height mics
vsm1.jpg

vsm2.jpg


Standard valve trains, maybe with a rocker stud girdle , and roller rockers can easily maintain valve control up to the mid 6K rpm band, and with cams designed for street /strip use the duration and lift must be moderate for long term durability, and street-ability in low rpm driving characteristics, and a need to run pump gas, compatible compression ratios, unlike a race combo, that extra few rpms is not a huge plus in most cases.
If your confused by the terms, lets try this, using this cam and the spring it lists

crane110921.jpg
[color:yellow][/color]
once installed the valve spring max length is the installed height,
ValveSpringDetail.gif

max lift is installed height minus .060 minus coil bind
drawsdf.jpg


if you used these valve springs
Crane Cams#271-99846-16
Single Valve Springs
Outside Diameter: 1.255"
Inside Diameter: .870
Seat Pressure: 125 LBS @ 1.800"
Open Pressure: 383 LBS @ 1.200
Coil Bind: 1.100"
Rate (LBS/IN.): 428
Max Lift: .640
Set of 16

coil bind is 1.100 so minus .060 from the installed height of 1.800,you get 1.160 max permissible lift, but the valve only forces the spring to compress to max valve lift which will be less than the 1.160, while the installed height of 1.800 minus the max permissible lift with that spring 1.800-1.160= .640 in this case the cam lobe lift on the lifter multiplied by the rocker ratio provides a .536 max spring compression, since you have a max usable lift clearance of .640 available with that spring at that installed height,in this case, the .536 lift the cam lobe provides,compresses the valve spring about .104 less than the max permissible lift so clearance will be fine and the valve lift will never reach the full theoretical valve spring compression or load rate listed, it will with the stated load rate of 428 lbs per inch of compression see a lower rate than the listed 383 lbs as .536 lift x 428 lbs per inch of compression= roughly 230 lbs
BTW Im sure the question would come up about swapping to a 1.6:1 ratio rocker, how will that effect the result above?
cams are listed with the stock in this case (SBC) 1.5:1 rocker ratio, in the case above that provides a .536 lift on the exhaust lobe which is a bit more than the listed .518 on the intake,valve, if we were to swap from the stock 1.5:1 ratio to a 1.6:1 ratio you simply divide that listed .536 by 15 then multiply by 16 and you'll find you'll see a change to a .571 lift, still under the .640 max lift

Valve Spring Tech courtesy of Kennedy’s Dynotune
Valve Spring Tech
valve-springs.jpg


As is widely known, the most important aspect of selecting a valve spring is to get a spring with the correct seat pressure, open pressure, and spring rate for the cam in the engine and with the rev limit that will be used kept in mind. Too little seat pressure robs power and impairs idle quality and vacuum. Too little open pressure can lead to valve float with resultant power loss and even damage to the valve train. So why not simply use the baddest, stiffest spring you can find?

It comes down to cost, wear on components, and maintenance. A very stiff spring needs a very stiff pushrod, heavy duty rockers with high quality studs or even shaft mount rockers, better than OEM lifters, retainers, and keepers. And even when the high quality, more expensive components are used spring life for stiff, high lift springs is diminished and more heat is generated during operation. So, you want enough spring, but not too much.

Flat Tappet Cams

How do you determine the right spring then? First, you need to decide what type of lifter you will be using. For flat tappet cams a seat pressure of 105-125lbs for small blocks and 115-135lbs for big blocks is appropriate. Open pressures should be in the 220-250lb range for low rpm street use and 250-350lbs for hi-performance or racing use. Go on the high side for a big block motor, though since these are not usually revved as high as a small block the need for added spring pressure is not necessarily large. In each case, the lighter the valves, the less spring is needed. Avoid the use of press fit rocker studs as open pressures approach 300lbs. For full-out race use, stiffer springs are often needed. However, unless the highest quality parts are used with careful assembly and break in the life of the cam and lifters may be short.

Hydraulic Roller Cams

Hydraulic roller (HR) cams require higher pressures to control the inertia of the heavier roller lifters and the faster acceleration of valve train components allowed by the use of the roller follower. Pure street small blocks should have 260-300lbs open pressure. For performance use, aim for 300-350lbs open. Racing small blocks that regularly see 6,000+rpm need over 400lbs open pressure. At these pressures, premium valve train components including a “billet” type cam are required. Even with these components, there will be reduced service life and the consequent need for more frequent parts inspection and replacement. Big blocks need closer to 300lbs open pressure for street driving and 350-375lbs is preferred for performance use. A racing big block needs 450lbs. As with small blocks, premium components including lifters are needed at higher pressures and rpm. As with solid lifter cams, seat pressures should be in the range of 105-125lbs for small blocks and 115-130lbs for big blocks for performance street cars. Blower cars and race cars will need higher seat pressures.

Solid Roller Cams

Solid roller (SR) cams were once considered very exotic. They are coming into more and more common use, first on race cars, and most recently on street-strip cars. These cams are typically designed with very steep lobes which produce very high rates of valve acceleration. To prevent the valves from bouncing on the seat, elevated seat pressures are required. Street-strip cars should aim for ~175-200lbs seat pressure. Mild race applications need 225-250lbs on the seat. Professional level racing require ~350lbs seat pressure or more. Obviously, for these last categories only the finest components should be used and they will need frequent replacement. In blown fuel cars, springs may last just one 1/4 mile run. It is difficult to give guidelines for open pressures, since application vary so much. But assuming that most of our readers are interested in street-strip use, we recommend a minimum open pressure of at least 400lbs. High rpm engines will need a lot more. Professional race engines may require open pressures exceeding 1000lbs.

Triple Versus Double Springs

Triple springs were the way to go on high rpm solid roller race setups in the past. These were required to provide the needed pressure. There are now double springs available that provide over 1000#open pressure. These have at least the theoretical advantage of lower mass of the spring itself. The lower mass allows more of the spring pressure to be available to control the valve train, rather than the spring itself.

What spring should I use?

The above are just general statements about valve spring requirements. The best source of information is your camshaft supplier. We can select and provide springs at a competitive price if we know your cam specs or part/grind number.

Valve Lift and Spring Length Selection

Once you have determined the pressures you need, you can select a valve spring with the appropriate length by taking into account the amount of valve lift in you setup. Start with the installed height needed to get the required seat pressure. Subtract the maximum valve lift plus at least 0.050-60″ for coil clearance. If the installed height minus the sum of the valve lift plus 0.050″ is more than the coil bind height, the spring has enough lift. Of course, you will still need to check for interference between the retainer and the valve guide, the rocker and the retainer, etc. If the numbers indicate the spring is too short, you will need to pick one with a similar rate but a higher installed height. Special valve retainers or longer stemmed valve may be needed to accommodate higher lift. Some engine builders prefer to keep coil clearance at a minimum. This tends to have a dampening effect on the coils, potentially preventing harmful harmonic vibration. If this approach is chosen, each spring must be carefully checked for adequate clearance.

Example

Let’s say you are putting together a small block with an aggressive HR cam for street-strip use. The maximum lift is .575″. You know you will need seat pressure in the 125lb range and want ~350lbs open. Go to a spring catalog and look at the springs in a diameter to fit your heads. Find the springs that have at least the desired maximum lift and simply pick one with a rate that closest to your requirements. It’s possible that to get the right rate you will need to shim a longer spring or to install at a higher than normal installed (closed) height using special retainers and/or a taller valve.

Spring Brands and Purchasing Springs

There are many good brands of valve springs available. However, we like to recommend and sell to our customers what we use. The brands we recommend are Comp Cams, Lunati, and Manley. Many of these springs are made by PAC in the United States and branded by the listed manufacturers. However, some of the brand name springs are actually lower quality imports, so be careful about what you are buying. You can consult their on-line catalogs (click on the name to go there) for a part number and call or email for our low price. Or. if you need help selecting springs, give our tech-line a call at 716-693-5354. We can provide all of the other valve train parts you need. Parts we handle include pushrods, valve locks and retainers, seals, shims, seats, etc. Either consult the manufacturers’ on-line catalogs, or contact us. If you are thinking about springs, you may also want to consider one of our custom cams.

I have to point out I have 50 plus years devoted to gaining knowledge ,
about how you succeed at building reliable engines,and I pay a great deal of attention to the successful combos ,
and I've taken the effort too learn why the less successful combos failed.
now the truth is Ive made more than my full share of mistakes, but unlike most people,
I learn from my mistakes and the mistakes made by others and don,t generally repeat them.
I also take the time and effort to find out why parts fail, or why various mis-matched components don,t work well.
that seems to be a rather unique skill, from what I've seen.
if you take the time and effort required to read enough threads and linked info you'll see a pattern emerge!
its based on a concept that its far better to sacrifice a few peak potential horse power if thats required,
if that change can make a very noticeable improvement in the engines long term durability!
or as SMOKEY YUNICK used to say, the most important characteristic in building a race winning combo,
is simply that the most successful engine combo is based on an engine that has to finish the race in good running condition.
that in no way should be read as I can,t build a kick-butt engine with massive power, it just means that rock solid durability ,
takes presidence over adding a few additional peak, bragging hp, and a wide torque curve in the intended rpm range ,
adequate lubrication, cooling and staying out of detonation, and proper exhaust scavenging and a stable valve train,
are factors that take a far higher level of concern than bragging rights on a dyno.
or put differently, do it correct the first time, use the best parts you can afford , check your clearances, mandate 100% durability,
and strive for max torque in the intended rpm range, and let the hp numbers fall where they may!
Ive build almost 200 engines now over the last 50 years, and I can,t remember anyone having one fail unless they did something stupid,
like forget to check oil or coolant levels too repeatedly try to hit absurdly high rpms on a frequent recurring basis.
piston speed should be kept under about 4500 fpm, and even that should not be done constantly.
most engine failures are the result of valve train component or rotating component failures,
use of parts not designed for the stress levels,
detonation or lack of proper clearances and lubrication and lack of proper cooling,
control those factors and your engine lasts considerably longer


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/redline.343/#post-15729

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/matching-the-combo.11020/#post-48707

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...train-clearances-and-problems.528/#post-45493

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/rod-bolts-rpm-vs-stress.341/#post-30778

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...im-good-to-go-on-valve-clearance-right.15160/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-oil-feed-holes-in-cranks.4419/#post-11637

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-springs-and-setting-up-the-valve-train.181/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...on-building-a-383-sbc-stroker.428/#post-22981

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/parts-prep-cleaning.6255/#post-62107
 
Last edited by a moderator:

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
Re: sellecting valve springs

Ive tried all the methods listed above.....but I keep coming back the the first method Ive used for 40 years...

I may be old school,but IVE never had a problem adjusting solid lifters,and will continue to do so with this method, keep in mind, I set my lash with a feeler tappet gauge at engine idle speeds, by backing the rocker nut off a bit on the rocker stud untill the rocker clicks and I can slide the tappet gauge between the rocker and valve tip, then tighten it at idle just to the point the clicking stops then I remove the tappet gauge
esentuallt the methods similar to the way I set hyrolic lifters, but on hydrolics you don,t use a feeler/tappet gauge and once the rocker nuts tightened to the point the rocker stops clicking you add an aditional 1/4 turn for preload
hydr1.png

hydr2.png


watch this video, it depicts the lifters movement as the cam lobe rotates under its base forcing it up as the lobes ramp, rotates under the lifter base,removing the clearance slack,
as it compresses the valve spring and forces the trapped oil, up the push rod and lifts the valve

If you are concerned with measuring the clearance in the hydraulic lifter seat when selecting and measuring the correct valve train geometry,
so you can order the correct length push rods...
I don,t think you have the correct idea as to how hydraulic lifters work,
yes it is possible for an engine with hydraulic lifters to be pushed too operate at a high enough rpm that the time required for the lifter seat to fully depress and all the oil too be forced up to the push rod/rockers , to be so short that the lifter pumps up and the valves will have less seat time, ( sometimes one of several factors, like the lifter leaving the cam lobes surface as the inertial loads exceed the valve springs ability to maintain lifter too lobe contact, referred too or contributing to what is commonly referred too as valve float) but that has ZERO to do with selecting push rod length or proper valve train geometry, (remember at 6000 rpm the valve is lifted off its seat 50 times PER SECOND)
hydrlifth.jpg

http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pon ... ppets.html


G_27994G_CL_1.jpg


http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/lis68050.html
sum-906781_w.jpg

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

Preference on assembly lube?

50% marvel mystery oil
marvel.jpg

and 50% crane moly lube, or the paste moly, the mix of moly paste and M.M.O. is generally applied liberally with the paint brush, in multiple applications to surfaces like cam gears, timing chains, lifters, rockers, and cam lobes, to provide an extra layer of lubrication protection on initial engine start up.
crn-99004.jpg

what Ive used for decades
but this works

permassembly.jpg

I have used J&B WELD EPOXY on a large magnet
https://www.zoro.com/value-brand-ring-magnet-98-lb-pull-10e797/i/G4187224/
Z_o3v-kcpEx-.JPG


on the base of an aluminum 1/2 cup measuring cup I purchased at a yard sale for 25 cents to mix up the mixture, the magnet allows me to stick the cup to the block oil pan rail or engine stand where its handy too get at, and I simply brush on the mix with a 1" paint brush, with synthetic bristles that won,t shed
molypaste.jpg

OH! slide it off the block don,t try to just pull it off , its going to be much less messy that way trust me!
when your done , wipe it clean and stick it inside the lid of your tool box , after placing it in a ziploc bag to prevent it from picking up trash while in storage

1aae7f99-2e0a-4629-aae6-e646e15a8533_1000.jpg


shopping
 
Last edited by a moderator:

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
Re: sellecting valve springs

HEY GRUMPY?
I have some comp beehives on my bbc, part #26120
I also have a lunati voodoo hydro roller part # 60212
I have 1.72 ratio full roller rockers up top, I've cycled the engine through many times and checked clearance and have just a smidgen above .060 clearance in the middle.
This isnt a dedicated track car, just for street, and I dont plan on ever going above 5500rpm with it and have a rev limiter just to make sure, but does that amount of clearance with those parts seem safe enough to you? I don't think comp makes a stronger beehive for hydro rollers, and I dont feel like respending money, I've read many things and some people say you should have .100 clearance in the spring, and others say .060 is fine, what has been your experience?

I've called comp and they said they should be fine. However, I highly doubt they are going to reimburse me 8k in parts over their springs. I do want to protect my 8k I put in there, but at the same time dont feel like shelling out $250+ for new valve springs when the ones I have are brand new.

And I checked these clearances with no oil in the lifters whatsoever, they were completely bled down.

The people that assembled them for me http://www.m2race.com said on the install sheet that the installed height is 1.890, the installed pressure is 160lbs, and that coil bind is a .625 gross lift.

Comp says these are good to .600 lift and with the 1.72 ratio I come out to .607 lift. The tech on the phone told me it should be fine.
Would you run em?



ASSUMING your figures and info are correct,if your installed height is 1.890 and coil bind is at .625 thats 1.265 height for stacked spring coils, add .050 for minimal clearance and youll see a .575 MAX valve lift on the cam, BUT..

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

comp shows a 1.23 coil bind height, so given your lift is .607 the installed height and other clerances are critical to finding out if it will clear safely, 1.890-.607=.660-.050 for clearance =.610 so youll be ok IF the true installed height is really 1.890,
now heres what ID do,IF you want extra clearance just to be safe, ID install valve keepers/valve locks that gave me an extra .050 lift
http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browsePa ... er=99099-1
by seating the retainer .050 higher on the valve stem....since youve got no intention of running on the ragged edge of the rpm band, changing the installed height will lower the valve spring loads slightly but in your application thats almost a total non-issue, and yes it may require longer pushrods to get the rocker geometry correct so think thru your changes carefully.

this older post should help

HEY GRUMPY?
How much lift can these springs handle? I've read two different things from different sources....One says they can handle .490 another says they can handle .550....What's the real deal? See links below...I appreciate any help rendered.
http://www.motorpartscentral.com/Produc ... delId=7726

http://www.trifive.com/forums/showthrea ... ght=RV943X




GOOD QUESTION, SO LET ME EXPLAIN REALITY, vs ENGINE BUILDING THEORY ,you might want to keep in mind theres differances in the way max lift is being measured in some cases.
ADVERTIZED & THEORITICAL VS REALITY AS INSTALLED
example
heres a chart and springs IVE USED

http://www.racingsprings.com/PDF/beehive.pdf


lets look at the last spring on the chart, #PAC 1520

its installed height is 1.880

coil bind is at 1.210
subtract 1.210 from 1,880 and you get .670, yet,its max lift is listed at .650, ok,
but any engine builder will tell you you really need a minimum of .050 clearance, before reaching coil bind, so the real max lift at this point is not .650 but .620 lift, AHHHH!
but thats ONLY if the valve train allows you that .620 clearance, if the valve guides,piston to valve,retainer to valve guide, or valve seals,the differance on hydralic lifters,between the lifter seats supported by oil pressure or measured without oil holding them up, rocker slot clearance or a dozen or more other factors are taken into account and clearances meassured, youll be lucky in the real world to see that .620 lift clearance, you might have only .590 quite easily, and require either more machine work, or differant retainers, valve keepers etc. to get even that .620 let alone the .650 listed, and yes you can get that .650 but it might require a few tweaks, machine work, and a differant installed height, etc.
I think what they are saying is , that if you just pull the old springs and install the new ones .490 is usually what youll see, do some machine work and check clearances carefully and in theory you get the larger figure.

If you need to change the retainer to valve height location ,youll WANT to first look at the valve locks and what fits your retainers & valve design

, look thru all the listings they have

standard and .050 offset

11/32, 3/8"

single,and multi grouve,

7 degree and 10 degree locks

Tech Line - 386-258-6174


http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show ... 2&prt=2126

theres also differant valve spring retainer designs
http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show ... l=2&prt=33

LASH CAPS

270-99422-16.gif

They are used BOTH too add a bit of length above the end of the valve stem so the rocker body doesn,t contact the edge of the retainer, or to get the correct valve train geometry AND to provide a wider area for the tip of the rocker to roll on and protecting the valve stem tip.

related useful info


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/porting-can-help.462/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/port-speeds-and-area.333/#post-72826

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...olishing-combustion-chambers.2630/#post-13145

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/ccing-my-heads.14187/#post-71987

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-by-step-guide-with-pictures.5378/#post-71848

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...needs-clean-up-equalization.12474/#post-62647

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-tools-abrasives-sources.10683/#post-46209

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...at-angles-and-air-flow.8460/page-2#post-32923

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...orting-tips-by-smokey-yunick.4222/#post-11120

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/multi-angle-valve-job-related.3143/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-train-clearances-and-problems.528/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-steam-holes-posted-by-dennyw.2991/#post-7851

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...cking-blocks-heads-for-cracks.3363/#post-8862

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/how-to-lap-valve-seats.1159/#post-2362
 
Last edited by a moderator:

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
I posted this in the chit chat section and got a question


I got what I requested from SANTA ,two, new valve spring mics, my old ones were fairly worn and hard to read
cca-4929.jpg


whats a valve spring mic and hows it used?"

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/80535/10002/-1?CT=999

http://www.scpraceparts.com/valve-sprin ... 2-200.html

springmic.jpg


your questions very common, its used to measure the distance or INSTALLED HEIGHT between the spring shims upper surface and the retainers lower surface that the valve spring occupys normally, the springs removed and the mics installed in its place, the retainer and valve keepers are put in place and the valve mics extended to raise the retainer and seat the valve in the head, thus you get the correct space or distance between the or INSTALLED HEIGHT between the spring shims upper surface and the retainers lower surface that the valve spring occupys normally,
most valve springs have a spec card that indicated their intended load rates and installed height an coil bind heights, and load rates are checked with this tool, and a dial indicator.Its rather common for shops to install new valve springs without doing the matching clearance checks on installed height required to prevent spring bind with a high lift cam, if the engine spins without binding they figure its fine! which may NOT be the case
shims placed under the valve spring allow you to shorten the installed height, btw the thicker shims are placed on the upper end of the stack.
you need to verify clearances and load rates to get the proper loads and not get into clearance issues,
keep in mind coil bind is not the only clearance issue, retainer to valve seal, and retainer to rocker among other clearances along with coil bind and installed height must be verified, lets look at a spring,
http://www.pacracing.com/Street_Strip_S ... of_16.html

Premium Nitrided Beehive LS1 Spring
OD: 1.290"
130 lbs @ 1.800"
337 lbs @ 1.150"
Lift: 0.650"

notice coil bind is at 1.080 "
so youll install shims to get the height correct at 1.800
0607em_17_z+engine_assembly+shims.jpg


http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku
pro-66774_5_w.jpg


viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181&p=1690#p1690

testing valve springs is a WHOLE LOT EASIER with the correct tools like those linked in this thread



http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-6 ... toview=sku

cca-5333_w.jpg


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-5333/?image=large

read thru these also

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1005

http://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/valve ... nAodymUULA


http://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/valve ... izing.html

http://www.articleclick.com/Article/Usi ... ool/952814

http://www.streetperformance.com/m/cats ... -tool.html

http://www.phatperformanceparts.com/Pro ... lick=37735

https://www.goodson.com/technical_suppo ... Guides.pdf

http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part ... ing-Tools/
hrs-92040_w.jpg


DS-198921.jpg


Comp Cams Valve Guide Cutting Tool
Upgrading your camshafts to get more horsepower is a good idea. But here's the catch- if you're going to upgrade your camshafts, you have to do so as well for the rest of your valve train, especially the valve guides. The thing is, you're going to need bigger springs to be able to handle your aggressive camshafts. You'll need to modify your valve guides. What you need is the Comp Cams Valve Guide Cutting Tool. What you really want is to shorten your valve guides. This is to accommodate the high valve lift brought by your new camshafts. The shorter the valve guide, the more valve lift and the less stressed your valve springs will be. Professional, or even seasoned street drivers, know all too well the problems associated with improper valve train setup. The more strain you put on your springs, the more likely that they'll bottom out, or worse, even break under high engine speeds. You'll also likely experience 'valve float' wherein your valve springs can't pull back your valves at high rpm's (revolutions per minute), so you lose power. So make sure you set things up correctly with the Comp Cams Valve Guide Cutting Tool. This ultra tough tool works with three different-sized arbors. No matter how many valve guides you go through, this tool will cut them clean as a whistle. No more second guessing with your valve train setup. Do things right the first time around with the Comp Cams Valve Guide Cutting Tool.

http://www.rpmmachine.com/pioneer-valve ... ools.shtml

http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp+Cams/249/4720/10002/-1#

http://www.vtwinmfg.com/catalogs/cyr/pdf/1249.pdf

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1159&p=2362#p2362

ValveSpringClearance.gif

valvespringinstalled.gif



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrO7J9gA ... re=related

watch the video above



geometry is obviously not this guys strong area

problem, rocker body can not be lowered to get the correct geometry, push-rod needs to be slightly shorter,than the current 7.2" to provide the correct clearance and geometry, but that can,t be done because of clearance issues.....look guys this is hardly rocket science,
if you cant move the rocker down you need to move one or both ends of the rocker UP, while maintaining the correct valve train geometry and clearances,the rocker needs to move up but the push rod needs to stay the same, so the problem is the valve spring and valve tip the rocker rests on is not tall enough to move the whole rocker assembly and geometry issue higher on the rocker stud, he may need to move both the push-rod length and valve tip higher to gain the required clearance, that could be as simple as adding valve tip lash caps,to add length to the valve tip or it may require longer valves, and different valve springs, or swapping to a different rocker design.
but in any case the current set of components are not going to work, so its obvious he needs to do a few clearance and geometry checks

pro-66789_90_w.jpg


diaAPushrod.jpg


Proper push rod length is absolutely critical for peak performance—minimizing bent or broken valve stems, guide wear, and energy-wasting valve side-loading friction.
With the lifter located on the round base circle, position the Push Rod length Checker (make sure you have the Checker with the proper diameter hole) over the stud. Ideally the Checker should contact the top of the push rod and the valve tip evenly at the same moment, should the Checker contact the push rod first, measure the gap between the front of the checker and the valve tip, and purchase a shorter push rod of the correct length. Should the Checker contact the valve tip first, measure the gap between the back of the Checker and the top of the push rod, and purchase a longer push rod.
the process of finding the correct length push rods not that difficult, you install the correct push rod checker for your application,on a rocker stud, install the adjustable push rod, in place of the stock push rod after roughly adjusting the adjustable push rod to the stock length once the cam is rotated so the lifter, your using to verify the correct length is resting on the cams base circle, and then you extend or shorten the adjustable push rod so the plastic push rod checker just rests on both the tip of the valve stem and the push rod checker as in the picture above, this gets you very close to the correct length, you then use the machinists blue or a magic marker and the rockers you will be using to determine the exact correct length by centering if possible but finding the minimum sweep mark width so the wear mark on the valve tip as close to the valve stem center line as you can get it and the minimum side loading on the valve stem is found. centering the mark is less important than minimizing the rocker tip wipe mark width

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99003-1


CRN-99003-1_ml.jpg
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRO-86092
zddplus.jpg

ID be sure to use a can of this additive with every oil change,
and not exceed about 7-8 k miles between oil changes:D


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/which-oil-what-viscosity.1334/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/break-in-oil-quality-tested.11145/#post-52505

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-mods-that-help.2187/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ilter-you-sellect-does-make-a-differance.117/

http://www.engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ215_18-38.pdf
 
Last edited by a moderator:

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
when setting up the valve train clearances ,one of the first steps is making 100% sure the rockers push strait down on the valve stems, failure to do that significantly increases drag and friction in the valve train, youll either run push rod guide plates or self aligning rockers, but NOT BOTH, to keep the push rods lined up with the valves ,you'll need to get the valve train geometry correctly adjusted, or you'll have problems, with rapid wear on the rockers or pushrods or valve stems and valve guides.
the reason you don,t run both is that your almost sure to have alignment or clearance issues if both are used, and not 100% correctly lined up, if only one is used theres a small bit of slack tolerated in the valve train alignment and geometry.
take the effort to check and recheck all the clearances and angles because doing it correctly both reduces friction losses and tends to allow the valve train to last far longer and rev higher


read this link
http://www.engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ215_18-38.pdf




http://www.cranecams.com/pdf-tech-tips/mech-lift.pdf

adjustable pushrod guide plates

BBC

http://www.dartheads.com/products/acces ... lates.html

http://www.jegs.com/i/Dart/301/27001230-4/10002/-1

SBC

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

bronze guides hold a film of oil better, wear less and can be sized tighter for a more precise, fit, so the valve will seat more precisely as it closes, it also tends to transfer heat from the valve stem to the heads more efficiently that a looser knurled steel inner valve guide surface

http://www.ferrea.com/catalog/2009/Dom_ ... Guides.pdf

http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar696.htm

http://www.minimania.com/web/SCatagory/ ... ticleV.cfm

http://www.hastingsinc.com/ServiceTips/ ... ciency.htm

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article ... oning.aspx

https://www.goodson.com/technical_suppo ... Guides.pdf

keep in mind shims under the valve springs can be used to raise the spring or shorten the valves installed height, valve locks and retainers can be purchased with non-O.E.M dimensions to adjust the valves installed height or spring load rates
you use either or both depending on the application
a .050 PLUS valve lock moves the retainer .050 higher on the valve stem with no other changes, a plus .050 retainer would move the retainer .050 higher with stock valve locks or an additional .050 if matched to .050 plus locks
if you used a plus .o50 retainer with a set of minus .o50 valve locks the retainer would remain at the stock height on the valve stem

there are fully adjustable timing gear sets available
http://www.usaperform.com/timing-chain- ... =4d&page=1

adjustable.jpg


why is it that so many of you gentlemen are so reluctant to actually take the time to measure valve train clearance, spring load rates and valve train geometry and make every effort to avoid doing things correctly?
yes it takes some knowledge, some tools and some time, but in the long run its gives you some piece of mind knowing its been done correctly, and your far less likely to have catastrophic engine failures as a result.


“Quality means doing it right when no one is looking.”

Henry Ford

“Quality is like buying oats. If you want nice, clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse ... that comes a little cheaper.”

an hour to a week spent in careful research,
before you buy or install parts,
can save you months or frustration
and easily 300%-to 500% of the eventually,
cost incurred in buying cheaper parts,in this hobby!



good quality parts tend to cost more, so expect to pay a fair price, remember the sweetness of low price tends to be forgotten long before the bitterness of living with low quality, that remains forever!

“It is quality rather than quantity that matters.

Seneca
“There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.”
John Ruskin

"the quality of a man's life is in direct proportion to his commitment to excellence, regardless of his chosen field of endeavor".

IN almost 100% of engine builds, your FAR better off purchasing and correctly installing a few high quality components, than you would be, after spending twice too three times as much money on, three to four times as many low quality parts randomly selected mostly because they were on sale!

GREAT DEALS!...RARELY ARE, looking back later!


http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2746

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2661
 
Last edited by a moderator:

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
this question comes up frequently
"If I were to order a set of heads from summit or who ever and I bought the bare heads rather than a set that were assembled would I have to send them to the machine shop for work or could I buy the valves, springs studs etc and do it myself? "

THE ANSWER DEPENDS ON WHICH HEADS YOU BUY FROM WHICH MANUFACTURER!

Ive seen several sets of bare heads that required HUNDERED$ of dollars in machine work, like doing a 3-5 angle valve job, clearance the push rod holes,decking the surfaces,combustion chamber mods, spring pockets needed machining , stud pads needed truing and threading for the studs,etc. before valves, springs, rocker studs, push rod guide plates,valve seals ETC. could be installed.
IVE also seen heads that were basically ready for assembly as the came from the box!
A LOT of detailed questions need to be asked before going that route....
BUT ILL also point out that in many cases you'll save a great deal of money, not paying for parts that you won,t be using and get far better quality components, and be much surer the clearances are correct if you do it yourself with components you select.
you generally won,t get titanium retainers and valves that are .100"-.250" longer and the better quality beehive springs, or similar components and clearance work in an off the shelf cylinder head.
naturally it helps to start with a decent quality casting from a major manufacturer, so components are easily found that match the application.

these links contain a good deal of useful info

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/t ... index.html

http://www.racingsprings.com/

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=528

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1005

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=534

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=697

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=553

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2875

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=319

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=240
 

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
first on the push rods, theres a huge difference between materials and tubing wall thickness between different manufacturers and part numbers, some 3/8" rods are stronger than SOME 7/16" push rods, wall thickness and materials used vary tremendously.

thick wall 4130 CHROMOLY push rods will be stronger than stock 1010 steel, many push rods have a .080 wall thickness, some a .083 , 0r .063 some heat treated, ETC., some are not even steel but carbon fiber, with titanium tips or all titanium.

you NEED to MEASURE clearances, and TEST valve springs never ASSUME anything on cylinder heads, and you got good advice concerning ALWAYS swap to decent MATCHING springs when installing a new cam if your not 100% sure of the spring rates and even then verify clearances


http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ck-chevy-gen-v-vi-to-adjustable-rockers.4564/

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=528

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-7942-16/

http://www.flatlanderracing.com/manpushrods.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ulvzvj ... ds&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=gsgQMT ... ds&f=false

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/COMP-CAM ... .m20.l1116

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-13635-16/

http://www.paeco.com/Titanium Products.htm

http://www.mantonpushrods.com/Pushrod-Info.html

http://www.usaperform.com/cams-lifters- ... tml?page=1

Column Theory
Because a pushrod is an eccentrically loaded column due to angularity load and arc motion within the engines atmosphere, whenever possible, it is most proper to use either a single taper or offset dual taper design pushrod. It is also very important to use the largest diameter pushrod that you can fit in the engine. This will help lessen deflection in the pushrod by putting the major diameter and mass where it is needed the most. The greater the angularity, the greater the arc motion. As the pushrod encounters this, the high load area on the tube moves closer to the energy source. The energy source being the lifter, as it travels up the ramp of the camshaft. It makes it even more important to use these tapered designs when using large roller bearing diameters, increased valve lash, very high engine speeds, high rocker ratios, rapid valve train acceleration and high spring pressure. These tapered designs make it easier for the pushrod to do its job properly, and will enhance the performance of all the other valve train components, which will enable the engine to produce the maximum possible horsepower. The tapered designs and large diameters will also reduce valvetrain harmonics. Do not be over concerned about pushrod weight. The difference between a stock 5/16 diameter pushrod in a small block Chevrolet and a 7/16 to 3/8 tapered pushrod, represents a difference of approximately 2.5% of effective weight. This is because the pushrod is on the slow moving side of the valve train. The effective increase in weight between the two pushrods may be small but provides a huge increase in valve train stability. Remember the valve side of this valve train is the critical side where any weight savings will make marked improvements. No matter what we change, valve train stability is the goal.

Important Special Instructions & Suggestions
It is very important to determine proper pushrod length. Improper pushrod length can cause a number of problems including excessive valve guide wear, lessened valve lift, valve stem side thrust, coil bind, improper valve to piston clearance and also rockerarm to retainer interference (in some cases lash caps can be used to help correct rockerarm to retainer clearance problems).

Check the radius of the lifter receiver cup and rockerarm cup/ball before ordering to help prevent mistakes. Improper ordering may result in parts failure. Watch for variations from stock radius in aftermarket lifters.

Make sure significant oil volume reaches the rockerarm end of the pushrod to help prevent galling due to excessive heat generation and lack of lubrication. To prevent interrupted oil flow to the pushrod, it is very common and almost always necessary to modify the lifter body so oil flows through it no matter where it’s positioned in the lifter bore (call for details). Oil restriction in the engine block is not normally recommended.

When possible, try to use larger diameter pushrods to spread out the load and lower the stress on the tube. This will help lessen pushrod deflection. Heavy wall tubing is a good idea also, to minimize compression. Many problems occur when a pushrod is inadequate for the application.

In high RPM applications tapered pushrods are a must for the serious racers. Tapered designs help to dampen harmonics in the valve train; extended valve spring life and increased usable RPM will usually be noticed.

Do not allow over clearancing for the pushrod. This may cause the pushrod to move around or deflect more than needed. Clearance of .010 at the closest point, wherever that may be during its complete cycle is sufficient. The cylinder head and engine block can often be utilized like a big guide plate and dampening device, which stabilizes the pushrod. Just make sure that there is no interference problems when turning the engine over on the engine stand.

Tapered pushrods should not be used in guide plate applications. Improper clearance and interference problems are sure to occur. Use only straight tube pushrods, specifically surface hardened for guide plate use in this application. Note: See series #2 and #4 for guide plate applications.

If you are using a tool steel rockerarm adjusting screw, it is almost always suggested that a tool steel pushrod tip be used at the rockerarm end. This will ensure proper compatibility.

Note: When using Manton pushrods, adjustments to valve/cam timing, valve to piston clearance and fuel curve may be required.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
http://www.arp-bolts.com/Catalog/Catalo ... g_0046.pdf

rocker studs must match the applications (chart above)
and youll want to keep in mind that you don,t just screw them into the heads without verifying
several factors,
for example
rockerstuds.jpg

verify
the studs thread diam.,
thread pitch,(metric?, SAE?)
the depth of the threads in the heads,
the specific torque suggested,
if sealant is required on the heads,
is a pushrod guide plate required?
bbcguideplate.jpg

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ck-chevy-gen-v-vi-to-adjustable-rockers.4564/

have you used a clean/out or thread chaser?
you'll, need to verify the studs don,t bottom out or they can crack the heads!
you'll need to verify the rockers,used have both a slot length and diam.that allows the stud not to bind at both ends of its arc!
you'll want to verify the poly locks match the rocker slot for clearance and remember the stud that goes thru the rockers axle must have the rounded side of that axle facing down and the flat side of the axle facing up so the poly lock shoulder snugs up squarely on the rockers axle

rollerrocker.jpg
.theres a threaded internal jam or locking stud inside the poly lock thats adjusted and tightened with a hex or Allen key, that lock stud needs to be backed out as far as it can go before you adjust valves to get the poly locks to fully engage the rocker stud threads, THEN and only after you get the rocker geometry correct do you tighten the locking studs, to approximately there final location.

its MANDATORY that you get the valve train geometry and clearances correct, if you bind or bend components your easily exerting hundreds if not thousands of pounds, of resistance/force on the effected components, and major bad results will almost always result in a very short time
if you bend a push rod or bust a rocker stud.........................STOP, and find out exactly what happened before you continue
btw the BEST aluminum rockers IVE ever used for GEN 1 SBC were ERSON BILLET ROLLER ROCKERS
PART # E928069 1.6:1 ratio for 3/8" studs
PART # E928072 1.6:1 ratio for 7/16" studs



http://www.erson-cams.com/pdf/Chevrolet.pdf

http://www.erson-cams.com/pdf/valvetrain.pdf

http://www.erson-cams.com/AskTechForm.aspx?brandId=7

IVE always prefered STEEL roller rockers over ALUMINUM for two reasons
first STEEL has a MUCH GREATER fatigue life under repeat stress than aluminum, and steel generally has far fewer clearance issures with other components, plus some STEEL roller rockers are REBUILDABLE

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA-1302-16&autoview=sku

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article ... itch_.aspx


http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CRN-11600-1&autoview=sku

in MOST cases you can install 1.6:1 roller rockers with MINOR machine work, (I have seen on rare occasions no machine work necessary)
but in any case its easily done,

the tool comes with instuctions

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=PRO-66485&N=700+115&autoview=sku

and before a dozen guys start telling you they installed them with zero problems on stock heads, keep in mind most guys don,t take the time to check ALL the clearances thru THE FULL rotation of the rockers arc. and it they don,t break or bind parts ,THEY assume its fine
but the truth is the pushrod should NEVER touch either end of the slot even lightly anywhere in the arc.
I get questions all the time about roller rockers,"are they worth it?" "do they really help?"etc.
if they are correctly installed on a mild sbc and especially if the higher 1.6:1 ratio is used they tend to help on a mild cam as they tend to both reduce friction and increase effective flow rates,15-20 hp gains in the higher rpms are fairly common swapping from stock rockers.
on a well built performance application they are almost mandatory, because they reduce heat, are far more precisely made and lower friction

http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=153327675

http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=-1966802678

http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/vemp_0703_corvette_rocker_arms/index.html

http://www.compcams.com/information/Products/rockerArms/ProMagnum.asp
more info


http://www.centuryperformance.com/valveadjustment.asp

http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/0204vet_small_block_rocker_arms_ratio/index.html

read thru this it points out some of the potential gains and problems with swapping ratios

It may surprise many people but even many corvettes came with pressed in rocker studs, the fastest way to visually verify is to look for the hex stud base thats used to screw them in, if theres no hex base chances are excellent that they are press in studs.
STUD-02.jpg

typical pressed studs

STUD-18.jpg

screw in rocker studs

Photo0020.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BRO-BR1230/?rtype=10
br1230_w.jpg


STUD GIRDLES ADD A GREAT DEAL OF RIGIDITY TO THE VALVE TRAIN

.
Valve spring replacement schedule ???

Id suggest that both the rate or speed of the lobe ramp design and the amount of valve spring pressure will affect the potential expected life span of the valve springs
it should be rather obvious that the quality of valve springs varies with manufacturers
it is recommended to check ALL spring pressures once a year or every 15K miles.
That does not mean they will need replacing,
that is proper maintenance. Depending on the lobes used and if properly installed, certain springs can last 30+k, some less some more.

personally I have always suggested testing every 15 k miles or about once every once a year,
and
if you find any valve springs that have lost more than about 10%- 12% of the originally listed seat or compressed load rate its time to replace the set.
most of us can,t justify purchaseing a valve spring test tool,
but most better machine shops will test them ,

if you drop them off in a box with the listed installed height, max lift and seat pressure listed for under $40-$50 for a set, in my experience

A VALVE SPRING LOAD TESTER IS EXPENSIVE, BUT A GREAT TOOL TO HAVE
vsts1.jpg

http://streetperformanceusa.com/i-72754 ... ester.html
vsts2a.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66775
vsts3.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66776/overview/
https://www.compcams.com/valve-springs-101

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1011-what-you-need-to-know-about-valvesprings/

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2010/01/performance-valve-springs-and-retainers/

https://www.nhra.com/news/2019/how-pick-valve-springs-your-race-car

https://www.aa1car.com/library/valve_spring_diagnosis.htm


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/busted-valve-spring.7716/#post-38047

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...t-compressed-when-installed.11356/#post-51869


I have roughly 15,000 miles over 5 years on the original Brodix valve springs. Is it all about the number of cycles or does time have to be factored into this equation? How often should they be changed when the lift is .560 inches. I sure don't want to drop a valve, it would NOT be worth a set of new valve springs.
Should I see more valve rotation ???
(I would not be overly worried, most valves rotate slowly during operation)

Most valves in an operating small engine rotate about the valve stem axis at varying rates. Valve rotation has an overall positive effect on valve life. Rotation provides improved temperature distribution in the valve head and a mild scraping action that cleans the valve interface of any crushed combustion deposits.
Each time a valve opens, the valve rotator turns the valve slightly. This prevents the valves sticking due to carbon build up. Additionally, it allows the inlet and exhaust valves to be heated and cooled symmetrically. ... Cleaner valves reduce engine emissions and prevent burning and guttering of the valve face and seat.

Looking at the witness marks on the valve tips, it sure does not look like the valves are rotating. On some intake valves I've noticed that the valve stems (close the valve head) is polished. I thought about taking some photos, but just didn't think I could capture the details.

Does the protrusion of the rocker stud hole into the intake port disrupt flow ???
I was wondering how much this hole disturbs the flow thru the intake port. Have there been any dyno tests? It would be easy to fill with some JB Weld to make the intake port wall continuous.

TW, remember to visually verify the stud length and cut them a bit shorter if required you don,t want the lower end protruding into the intake port and any threads doing that do NOTHING to increase the stud rigidity but they sure can reduce port flow rates if left sticking down into the air flow path
rockerstudp1t.jpg

rockerstudp2.jpg


ID ALSO POINT OUT THAT A ROCKER STUD GIRDLE ADDS A GOOD DEAL MORE STABILITY TO THE VALVE TRAIN
if the stud extends into the port ID get it machined shorter
if the lower rocker stud does not reach into the port Id be more concerned,
with the potential need to add a rocker stud girdle for rigidity than with minor port flow irregularity
p
IMG_2071.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-141010/?rtype=10
sum-141010.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-4014/
caa-4014.jpg

wrl-832010_w.jpg


viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1769

Photo0020.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article ... locks.aspx

some of the least expensive sbc roller rockers Ive found, now I don,t have any long term experience yet with these but I doubt summit will put their name on TOTAL CRAP, so theres a good chance these will work fairly well

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G6936-16/


IVE USED ERSONS EXTREME DUTY ROLLER ROCKERS IN MANY ENGINES OVER MANY YEARS WITH COMPLETE SATISFACTION (notice those are NOT the standard roller rockers they sell)

http://www.pbm-erson.com/store.php?catId=481&parent=24

http://www.usaperform.com/extreme-duty- ... p-849.html
Rockerarmextreme.jpg



while your checking your valve train, check for weak or broken valve springs, more than one guys has broken a valve spring and wondered why the car runs like crap after entering valve float a few times, if you catch it early you may prevent dropping a valve and a huge expensive repair bill.

valvespring1.JPG

valvespring2.JPG

valvespring3.JPG

valvespring4.jpg

valveinpiston.jpg


hrdp_0412_06_z+big_block_chevy_engine+rocker_arms.jpg

beeroc.jpg

BEEHIVE SPRINGS and FORGED STEEL ROCKERS GIVE A GOOD DEAL MORE ROCKER TO RETAINER CLEARANCE
rockertoretainer.jpg


read thru these threads and sub linked info

http://www.aa1car.com/library/valve_spr ... gnosis.htm

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=903&p=10020&hilit=rope+adapter#p10020

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/ccrp_0801 ... index.html

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181&p=7156&hilit=springs+beehive#p7156

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1716&p=4248&hilit=+beehive+spring#p4248

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3124&p=9141&hilit=+beehive+spring#p9141

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=663&p=911&hilit=+rockers+girdle#p911

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=401&p=8370&hilit=vortec+heads#p8370

http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,15607.0.html
 
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grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article ... locks.aspx


High Performance Rocker Arms, Valve Springs, Retainers and Locks


By Larry Carley

Larry Carley

Upper valvetrain components have more of an effect on power and reliability than you might realize. Most engine builders know that changing the rocker arm ratio increases valve lift for more power. But did you know that changing the rocker arm pivot point can also reduce friction and the rate at which the valves open and close?

On a small block Chevy, altering the rocker arm geometry without changing the rocker arm lift ratio can add 15 to 20 horsepower at the rear wheels.

The stock lift ratio for a small block (SB) Chevy V8 rocker arm is 1.5:1, and for a big block (BB) Chevy V8, the ratio is 1.7:1. Bolt-on aftermarket high lift rocker arms with higher ratios are often used to get more net lift out of an existing cam profile. The most common high lift ratio upgrade for a SB Chevy engine is 1.6:1 rocker arms, and 1.8:1 rockers for BB Chevys. But some performance rockers now offer ratios as high as 2.0:1 or even higher!

Increasing the lift ratio adds horsepower with little or no loss in low rpm torque, idle quality or vacuum. By opening and closing the valves at a faster rate, the engine flows more air for the same number of degrees of valve duration. High lift rocker arms also reduce the amount of lifter travel needed to open the valves, which reduces friction and the inertia of the lifters and pushrods that must be overcome by the valve springs to close the valves. On the other hand, increasing the rocker ratio also increases the effort required to open the valves because of the leverage effect. The higher the rocker arm ratio, the greater the force the camshaft, lifters and pushrods have to exert to push the valves open. But when the valves close, the increased leverage of the rocker arms works the other way making it easier for the springs to shut the valves and push the rocker arms, pushrods and lifters back to their rest positions.

On SB Chevy engines, the stock stud-mounted rocker arms are supposed to be self-centering and self-aligning. The ball pivot inside the stamped steel rocker arm allows the tip of the rocker arm to follow the top of the valve as the valve is pushed open. This creates some back and forth scrubbing friction between the tip of the rocker arm and the top of the valve. And the higher the valve lift and the stiffer the springs, the greater the friction. Over time, this can cause side wear in the valve guides, tip wear on the end of the valve stems, and worn rocker arms.

Aftermarket performance rocker arms, whether they are stamped steel, stainless steel, or diecast, extruded or machined aluminum, usually have a roller tip to reduce friction between the rocker arm and valve. The roller, in theory, rolls back and forth on the top of the valve stem to reduce friction, wear and side forces exerted against the valve. Most stud-mounted aluminum rocker arms also have a needle bearing fulcrum to further reduce friction at the pivot point, and a hardened steel insert in the short end of the arm to accommodate the pushrod. Power gains of 15 to 30 horsepower are often claimed for aftermarket rocker arms even with stock ratios because of reduced friction. Aftermarket performance rocker arms are also stronger than stock stamped steel rocker arms, and provide improved reliability and longevity. But stud-mounted rockers have certain limitations.

One is that they often require pushrod guide plates to help keep everything in proper alignment, especially at high rpms and spring loads. Another limitation is that they can't handle valvetrain misalignment very well. If the rocker arm twists, it may bend the pushrod and/or allow the tip of the rocker arm to walk off the side the valve tip. If that happens, the rocker may push down on the retainer instead of the valve, causing the locks to pop out and the valve to disappear down the guide, destroying the engine.

SHAFT MOUNTED ROCKERS
The hot setup today is shaft-mounted rocker arms. Shaft mounted rockers would seem to be a throwback to the days before the first stud-mounted stamped steel rocker arms appeared on small block Chevy V8s in 1955. One of the features that made the SB Chevy such a performer was its lightweight, high revving valvetrain. But keep in mind, that was a time when maximum engine speeds were in the 6,500 to 7,000 rpm range, not 8,500 to 9,000 rpm or higher, and most engines were running single springs, not double or even triple springs.

Shaft mounted rockers have a number of advantages. One is better alignment. The shaft is rigid so the rockers are held in perfect alignment. This eliminates the need for separate pushrod guide plates while also limiting valve train deflection. At high rpm, pushrods and rocker arm studs can flex quite a bit, and the more they deflect the more it hurts valve lift, duration and valve control. This costs horsepower and can be seen on a dyno. So the more rigid the valvetrain, the less the valve flutter at high rpm. Shaft mounted rocker arms also provide extra strength and support, eliminating the need for a separate stud girdle. Aluminum stud girdles are often necessary to reinforce the valvetrain when a high lift cam (or rockers) and stiff springs are used. The girdle clamps around the studs and ties them together to reduce stud flex and the risk of breakage. But the girdle also makes it harder to adjust the valves. Shaft mounted rocker arms don't have that issue because the adjusters are on the arms, not the studs, and are easily accessible.

Mounting the rocker arms on a rigid shaft also eliminates the "jack hammer" effect that occurs with stud-mounted rockers. Every time the valve opens and closes, the change in valve lash that occurs with a solid lifter cam causes a stud-mounted rocker arm to slide up and down on its stud. This hammering effect can pull a pressed-in stud out of the cylinder head, and may cause fatigue failure in a screw-in stud or the rocker arm.

Another advantage of shaft-mounted rockers is better geometry. By lowering the pivot point of the rockers slightly with respect to the valves and pushrods, the arc that the tip of the arm follows is moved further down the curve. This reduces the back and forth scrubbing on the top of the valve, which reduces friction even more. One supplier of shaft-mounted rockers says this change alone reduces the torque it takes to turn a SB Chevy over by 80 ft. lbs, and is good for 15 to 20 horsepower.

Lubrication can also be an advantage with shaft-mounted rockers. Some have internal oil passages that route pressurized oil directly to the rocker arms and/or valve springs instead of relying on splash lubrication from oil squirting up through the pushrods. Shaft mounted rockers are available from a number of aftermarket suppliers, and fit not only stock SB Chevy and Ford heads but also most of the popular aftermarket heads made by Brodix, World, Edelbrock and others. The shaft-mounted rockers typically sell in the $700 to $900 range and are an excellent upgrade for any performance engine.

Another supplier of aftermarket rocker arms has taken a similar approach by redesigning some of their stud-mounted rocker arms for the LS1 Chevy. The rocker arms require milling the stud pads on the cylinder heads .170" to accommodate the lowered rockers, but the net result is better geometry, less side wear on the valves and faster initial opening that produces more horsepower.

What you may not know is that the actual ratio at which a rocker arm opens a valve is not constant, but varies as the valve opens and closes depending on the arc the arm travels and the position of the rocker pivot point with respect to the top of the valve and the pushrod. The stock LS1 rockers are mounted rather high and initially open the valve at a rate equivalent to about 1.54 to 1 before eventually reaching 1.7:1. The quick lifting aftermarket rocker arms, by comparison, lift the valve off the seat at a ratio that is closer to 1.8 to 1 and then goes to 1.7 to 1 at .200" valve lift. This has the same effect as increasing valve duration about six degrees, and produces 15 to 18 more horsepower.

INTERFERENCE ISSUES
As the ratio of the rocker arms goes up, the net lift of the valves increase and the valve springs are compressed much closer together. Clearances must be checked to avoid coil bind and contact between the bottom of the valve retainer and top of the valve guide. Springs should have a safety margin of .060" of remaining travel at maximum valve lift to avoid coil bind. The minimum clearance between the retainer and valve guide at maximum valve lift should also be .060". If the minimum clearances are not maintained and the valve spring or retainer bottoms out, the valvetrain will usually bend or break a pushrod. Clearance between the rocker arm and spring retainer must also be checked at maximum lift to make sure they don't touch. The stock rockers on a SB Chevy V8 can handle about .470" of valve lift. More lift requires switching to "long slot" rockers or aftermarket rockers with extra clearance.

High lift aftermarket rocker arms or a high lift cam may require using different springs that allow increased spring travel. Some springs cannot handle a maximum valve lift of more than .550". For higher lifts, different springs are required. Follow the spring supplier's recommendations when matching valve springs to maximum valve lift. Another way to avoid spring bind is to raise the installed height of the valve or to lower the spring seat. But both of these will reduce spring tension, which is not the way to go with a high revving engine.

For small block street performance engines with a flat tappet cam and no more than .450" of lift, single springs with 80 to 90 lbs. of seat pressure with the valves closed are usually adequate. For street/strip performance engines, springs with 100 to 120 lbs. of seat pressure are usually recommended. For street hydraulic roller cams, seat pressure should typically be 105 to 140 lbs., and should not exceed a maximum of 150 lbs. with a mechanical roller cam.

Double or even triple springs are usually required to achieve higher spring pressures. Seat pressures for double springs typically range from 130 to 150 lbs. or higher, and 300 or more lbs. for triple springs. Most NASCAR teams run dual springs with seat pressures of 190 to 200 lbs. and open pressures of 500 to 600 lbs. at .750" lift. Pro Stock drag racers, by comparison, typically run triple springs with seat pressures of 375 to 475 lbs. with the valves closed, and up to 1,000 lbs. open!

Increasing spring pressure increases the rpm and horsepower potential of the engine. Every additional 100 rpm may be worth an extra 20 or more horsepower on a highly modified performance motor. The current limit for steel valve springs is about 83 to 85 cycles per second, or about 10,000 rpm. NASCAR teams run a 200 to 400 mile race at 8,500 to 9,000 rpm. But drag racers only run a quarter of a mile.

High pressure valve springs can deliver the rpms, but there's a price to be paid because the springs don't last. Running at such high rpm wears out the springs. Consequently, the springs have to be replaced fairly often (every race with NASCAR engines, and after so many runs with drag racers).

Higher spring pressures also puts more load on the rocker arms, pushrods, lifters and cam lobes, which increases the risk of something breaking.

According to one major camshaft supplier, standard camshafts can usually handle open valve spring pressures of up to 550 lbs. But for higher spring pressures, a carburized 8620 or 9310 steel camshaft is required.

Installing double springs may require the following modifications:

*
* Flycutting the spring seats in the heads to accept the springs.
* Changing the spring retainers to ones that are designed for double or triple springs.
* Changing the valve seals and/or machining the guides for extra clearance.
* Replacing pressed-in rocker arm studs with screw-in studs and a stud girdle, or installing shaft-mounted rocker arms.
* Replacing the stock pushrods with stronger and stiffer 4130 chrome moly pushrods (to prevent pushrod flexing and breakage).
If the springs provide more than 350 lbs. of pressure when the valves are open, the stock stamped steel rockers will have to be replaced with stronger aftermarket steel or aluminum rockers.



BEEHIVE SPRINGS
Beehive springs that taper towards the top are a hot commodity in the aftermarket, but date back to the earliest days of the automobile. Like shaft-mounted rockers, though, they are finding new applications in todays high performance engines. Chevy LS1/LS7 series engines use a factory beehive spring, as do Ford modular 4.6L V8s. Similar spring designs have been developed for SB Chevy and Ford engines by aftermarket suppliers. Unlike a conventional valve spring that has a constant diameter, a beehive spring tapers in toward the top sort of like a real beehive (thus the name). A smaller top means a smaller and lighter valve spring retainer can be used to reduce weight. Also, the change in the diameter of the spring as it tapers toward the top creates a progressive spring rate that helps the spring resist harmonics that occur in conventional constant rate springs. The bottom line is that beehive springs perform better than conventional single springs on many (but not all) engine applications.

One spring supplier said their beehive springs can increase the rpm potential of an engine 100 to 1,200 rpm depending on the cam, valvetrain and other engine modifications. The maximum amount of valve lift a beehive spring can handle is about .650", so if the engine needs more lift it will require dual or triple springs.

Beehive springs have been popular on the street, but some racers are cautious about using them because there's no safety margin if a spring breaks. With a double or triple spring, the engine won't eat a valve if a spring breaks. The extra springs serve as a backup to pull the valve shut.

SPRING COATINGS
Heat is the main enemy of the springs, with dual and triple springs typically generating more heat than single springs because they rub against each other. Managing heat, therefore, is critical for spring longevity.

The durability of a spring depends on the quality and purity of the alloy that is used to manufacture the spring, the heat treatment the spring receives, and any additional surface treatments the spring is given. Some springs are nitrited while others are coated with proprietary chemicals that help the spring run cooler. Another trick that can extend spring life is to have the springs cryogenically treated. Freezing the springs to 300 degrees below zero can increase spring life up to five-fold, according to those who do it.

SPRING INSTALLATION
There are a couple of things to watch when installing valve springs. One is height. This ensures the springs have the required pressure to keep the valves shut. Height is checked by measuring the distance between the spring seat in the head and the retainer on the valve stem. Most performance valve springs are closely matched, but if adjustments are needed it can be done by shimming the valves to equalize pressures. The thicker the shim, the more it increases spring pressure. Don't overshim, though, because doing so may lead to coil bind with a high lift cam or rocker arms.

Shims are made of hardened steel, come in various thicknesses and are usually serrated on one side to prevent rotation (the serrated side faces the head). Some shims are also designed to help insulate the springs from heat generated by the cylinder head. Springs should also be lubricated when they are installed in a new engine, especially double and triple springs, to reduce friction. Soaking the springs in oil or coating them with assembly lube should provide adequate protection during the critical first start-up.

VALVE SPRING RETAINERS & LOCKS
Reducing weight on the valve side of the rocker arm has more of an impact than reducing weight on the pushrod side because of the leverage effect. Lightweight valve retainers made of titanium have long been the preferred upgrade here. But in the past year, the price of titanium has skyrocketed. Most of the world's titanium supply comes from Russia and is being consumed by China. Some aftermarket suppliers have responded to the changing market conditions by introducing new lightweight steel retainers.

For street applications, steel retainers with stock 7 degree locks are usually recommended. But for racing or high rpm roller cams, titanium retainers with 7 or 10 degree locks can reduce weight. Some locks have an extra step inside that reinforces the bottom of the retainer and reduces the risk of the valve pulling through at high rpm. When the valve locks are installed around the valve stem, their edges must not touch each other. They should clamp against the valve stem and hold it securely. Keep in mind that the design of the retainer affects the installed valve height and spring tension.

Tech Center/engine builder
5 MONTHS AGO
Under Pressure: The Importance of Getting the Right Amount of Spring Pressure
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26c67faeb80d2b50dd494b2b6f8e15cb



Tim Allen,CONTRIBUTOR




Hydraulic roller cams need higher seat pressures to control the heavier weight of a roller tappet and the more aggressive opening and closing rates of most roller cam lobe profiles. Small block applications should be in the 120-145 lb. range for seat pressures with big blocks being in the 130-165 lb. range. They also require higher open pressures for the same reason, to control the vertical opening inertia of the heavier roller lifters.High performance small block applications like 300-360 lbs. open spring pressure with higher end and competition builds being able to use 400-425 lbs. open pressure while still achieving reasonable valve train life. When using a spring that produces an open pressure in excess of 360 lbs., the springs, lifters and push rods must be of top quality materials in order to endure the higher spring load. In the same manner that a lower opening pressure can be used on flat tappet engines operating at a lower RPM limit, you can use a spring that will provide a 260-270 lb. minimum for hydraulic roller applications operating at 4,000 RPM and lower.

Big block applications for general performance and lower RPM operating ranges need at least 280 lbs. open pressure and should have 325-375 lbs. for higher performance levels. Seriously high output and competition engines can push up to 450 lbs. open pressure. Again, like a small block, elevated spring pressures in excess of 360 lbs. dictate high quality valve train components to keep the engine performing consistently. In both small and big block hydraulic roller engines, stock OEM style roller lifter bodies won’t tolerate open pressures above 360 lbs.

Flat tappet mechanical cams can be somewhat of a different animal in regards to setting up your spring pressures. Generally 130-145 lbs. on the seat with an open of around 350-360 lbs. should be adequate, but certain applications, particularly higher RPM builds, can be done with increased pressures. We have built a fair amount of small block circle track engines that were pushing the needle close to 8,000 RPM using mechanical flat tappets and the installed was 160 lbs. with an open pressure of 390-410 lbs. These builds utilized lightweight parts and coated lifters with EDM oiling. The main thing I would like to stress here is the break-in procedure. Pull the inner spring or break it in with a different set of lower-pressure springs. It is additional work, but it is the only way to do it correctly.


Mechanical roller cams and lifters were originally used in full competition applications with some usage in specialized street builds that mostly saw limited driving. Today, there is a much larger number being employed and many manufacturers have dedicated grinds for engines that are used in places other than the race track, including daily drivers. For the most part, these cams are designed with very aggressive opening and closing rates. Higher seat pressures are required to keep the valves from bouncing when they come back to the seat. Milder solid roller cams can use 165 lbs. on the seat, but that is the minimum you should try to use. The majority of performance cams will need 180-200 lbs. closed. Competition applications will be in the 220-250 lb. range with upper level competitive engines utilizing as much as 350 to 500 lbs. on the seat. Open pressures have to be high enough to control the valve train as the lifter follows the cam lobe through maximum valve lift. Street and general performance applications can use a range of 350-450 lbs. over the nose that will help add a longer service life to the cam and lifters. Most drag racing and circle track builds will be in the 450-600 lb. range. Professional drag racing and other highly specialized engines are built with over 1,000 lbs. of open spring pressure.

Spring-shot-1024x512.png


Avoid Excessive Movement

One very important area when working with valve spring installation is to make sure that your springs are positively located. The retainer should fit snugly inside the spring and also the inner springs as well for dual and triple-spring applications to prevent any movement other than compression and rebound. Too much clearance will allow the spring to “walk” around causing abnormal wear to both the spring and retainer. The fit of the retainer also shouldn’t be too tight as this can overstress the top coil causing it to fail. As with the retainers, the fit inside the spring pocket of the cylinder head should keep the spring from moving around. Excessive clearance on the head will allow the spring to eat away at the mounting surface and damage the spring itself. If the fit is too tight it will overstress the bottom coil causing it to wear against the head and prematurely fail. When using spring cups, they should fit the ID of the valve spring and also have the correct fit for the OD of the valve guide.

Spring Designs

Modern advancements in materials, finishing processes and even wire shape have given us more options in spring design choices than ever before.

The cylindrical style is available as a single type, single with a flat wound damper spring, dual and triple spring. This type of spring has been used in just about every application imaginable, from OEM’s to every form of racing. The dual and triple springs work well for performance and competition builds because of the higher loads derived from utilizing multiple springs. Aftermarket manufacturers have made great strides in materials and finishes that have brought these springs to a much higher level than was available in the past.

Beehive style springs have a base like the cylindrical spring, but taper to a smaller diameter at the top. Since the top of the spring is smaller and therefore can use a smaller diameter retainer, the weight is reduced. This increases RPM potential with less spring load needed. A large majority of beehive-type springs utilize an ovate wire as opposed to round wire. Ovate wire designs provide a distribution of additional material in the high-stress areas of the spring, which spreads out the stress load.

Conical-style springs are similar to the beehive design in regard to the upper portion of the spring being a smaller diameter than the base, which achieves the benefit of weight reduction, but is cone shaped from bottom to top instead of tapering like the beehive. The coils of a conical spring differ in diameter and spacing, which results in a progressive frequency that provides a natural damping effect. I would really like to discuss this area further but it’ll have to wait till another article.

Remember to check for coil bind when installing springs. You should keep a minimum of .060 between coils. Check the retainer to valve guide clearance (allow room for the valve seal if it isn’t installed when taking your measurement). Also, make sure that there is sufficient clearance between the spring retainer and rocker arm. Till next time, have fun making horsepower!
 
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grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
IF FOR SOME REASON,YOUR THINKING OF STICKING ROLLER LIFTERS ON A FLAT TAPPET CAM CORE OR FLAT TAPPET LIFTER'S ON A ROLLER CAM CORE DON,T! YOU CAN NOT DO EITHER, WITHOUT QUICKLY DESTROYING THE CAM AND LIFTERS
there are quite useful ,cam selection soft ware programs that get you in the ball park, but the final selection is based on far more factors than most of those software programs address
http://www.camquest.com/
Impala65SS said:
...

Assuming the pushrods been installed with guide plates, there will be slight wear only visible, not tactile, from rubbing against the guide plates, that is quite normal.

Invest in an adjustable pushrod, and a push rod length checking tool before you decide to buy any pushrods! Your head has been "done over", so the factory valve train geometry HAS been ever so slightly changed.
pushrodbna.jpg


The right length pushrod will yeild the right valve stem wear pattern - in the middle of the valve stem. This is particularly important if you ever want to try longer ratio rockers, as the wear pattern on the stem will be wider, i.e. closer to the valve stem edges.
TIPS-23bn.jpg



You can get lash caps to get more wiggle room, less wear on the valve stem too.
lashcapbn.jpg
flat tappet cams are designed for low spring pressures and have cam lobes that are cut at an angle to allow the lifter to spin, roller cams are flat, mixing lifter types either way on cam cores results in a ruined cam and lifters
lifter1jpg.jpg


viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181


viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3802


http://www.kennedysdynotune.com/Valve%2 ... 20Tech.htm

QUOTE

As is widely known, the most important aspect of selecting a valve spring is to get a spring with the correct seat pressure, open pressure, and spring rate for the cam in the engine and with the rev limit that will be used kept in mind. Too little seat pressure robs power and impairs idle quality and vacuum. Too little open pressure can lead to valve float with resultant power loss and even damage to the valve train. So why not simply use the baddest, stiffest spring you can find?



It comes down to cost, wear on components, and maintenance. A very stiff spring needs a very stiff pushrod, heavy duty rockers with high quality studs or even shaft mount rockers, better than OEM lifters, retainers, and keepers. And even when the high quality, more expensive components are used spring life for stiff, high lift springs is diminished and more heat is generated during operation. So, you want enough spring, but not too much.



Flat Tappet Cams

How do you determine the right spring then? First, you need to decide what type of lifter you will be using. For flat tappet cams a seat pressure of 105-125lbs for small blocks and 115-135lbs for big blocks is appropriate. Open pressures should be in the 220-250lb range for low rpm street use and 250-350lbs for hi-performance or racing use. Go on the high side for a big block motor, though since these are not usually revved as high as a small block the need for added spring pressure is not necessarily large. In each case, the lighter the valves, the less spring is needed. Avoid the use of press fit rocker studs as open pressures approach 300lbs. For full-out race use, stiffer springs are often needed. However, unless the highest quality parts are used with careful assembly and break in the life of the cam and lifters may be short.



Hydraulic Roller Cams

Hydraulic roller (HR) cams require higher pressures to control the inertia of the heavier roller lifters and the faster acceleration of valve train components allowed by the use of the roller follower. Pure street small blocks should have 260-300lbs open pressure. For performance use, aim for 300-350lbs open. Racing small blocks that regularly see 6,000+rpm need over 400lbs open pressure. At these pressures, premium valve train components including a "billet" type cam are required. Even with these components, there will be reduced service life and the consequent need for more frequent parts inspection and replacement. Big blocks need closer to 300lbs open pressure for street driving and 350-375lbs is preferred for performance use. A racing big block needs 450lbs. As with small blocks, premium components including lifters are needed at higher pressures and rpm. As with solid lifter cams, seat pressures should be in the range of 105-125lbs for small blocks and 115-130lbs for big blocks for performance street cars. Blower cars and race cars will need higher seat pressures.



Solid Roller Cams

Solid roller (SR) cams were once considered very exotic. They are coming into more and more common use, first on race cars, and most recently on street-strip cars. These cams are typically designed with very steep lobes which produce very high rates of valve acceleration. To prevent the valves from bouncing on the seat, elevated seat pressures are required. Street-strip cars should aim for ~175-200lbs seat pressure. Mild race applications need 225-250lbs on the seat. Professional level racing require ~350lbs seat pressure or more. Obviously, for these last categories only the finest components should be used and they will need frequent replacement. In blown fuel cars, springs may last just one 1/4 mile run. It is difficult to give guidelines for open pressures, since application vary so much. But assuming that most of our readers are interested in street-strip use, we recommend a minimum open pressure of at least 400lbs. High rpm race engines will need a lot more. Professional race engines may require open pressures exceeding 750lbs.



Valve Lift and Spring Length Selection

Once you have determined the pressures you need, you can select a valve spring with the appropriate length by taking into account the amount of valve lift in you setup. Start with the installed height needed to get the required seat pressure. Subtract the maximum valve lift plus at least 0.050-60" for coil clearance. If the installed height minus the sum of the valve lift plus 0.050" is more than the coil bind height, the spring has enough lift. Of course, you will still need to check for interference between the retainer and the valve guide, the rocker and the retainer, etc. If the numbers indicate the spring is too short, you will need to pick one with a similar rate but a higher installed height. Special valve retainers or longer stemmed valve may be needed to accommodate higher lift. Some engine builders prefer to keep coil clearance at a minimum. This tends to have a dampening effect on the coils, potentially preventing harmful harmonic vibration. If this approach is chosen, each spring must be carefully checked for adequate clearance.



Example


Let's say you are putting together a small block with an aggressive HR cam for street-strip use. The maximum lift is .575". You know you will need seat pressure in the 125lb range and want ~350lbs open. Go to a spring catalog and look at the springs in a diameter to fit your heads. Find the springs that have at least the desired maximum lift and simply pick one with a rate that closest to your requirements. It's possible that to get the right rate you will need to shim a longer spring or to install at a higher than normal installed (closed) height using special retainers and/or a taller valve.



Spring Brands and Purchasing Springs

There are many good brands of valve springs available. However, we like to recommend and sell to our customers what we use. The brands we recommend are Comp Cams, Lunati, and Manley. Many of these springs are made by PAC in the United States and branded by the listed manufacturers. However, some of the brand name springs are actually lower quality imports, so be careful about what you are buying. You can consult their on-line catalogs (click on the name to go there) for a part number and call or email for our low price. Or. if you need help selecting springs, give our tech-line a call at 716-693-5354. We can provide all of the other valve train parts you need. Parts we handle include pushrods, valve locks and retainers, seals, shims, seats, etc. Either consult the manufacturers' on-line catalogs, or contact us. If you are thinking about springs, you may also want to consider one of our custom cams.
 

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
FROM CRANES WEB SITE
What is Valve Spring Installed Height?

Installed height (also called assembled height) is the dimension measured from the bottom of the outer edge of the valve spring retainer where the outer valve spring locates, to the spring pocket in the cylinder head, when the valve is closed.



How does installed Height affect spring tension?

Installed height is the determining factor of what the valve spring "closed tension" or "seat pressure" will be. The camshaft specification card, and the spring section of the catalog both show what the approximate tension a particular valve spring will exert if installed at a specific height.

For example, spring part number 99848 shows 114 lbs. @ 1.700". This means that if this spring is installed at a height of 1.700" it should exert 114 lbs. of tension with the valve closed. (Note: Spring tensions often vary measurably within the same production runs; therefore, it is recommended that each spring be tested on an accurate spring tester and the spring installed at the recommended seat pressure.)

How do you change installed height and what effect does it have?

The easiest way to shorten installed height is to insert a shim in the spring pocket below the valve spring. Another is to use a different design valve spring retainer. Retainers with a deeper dish will have more installed height, with a shallower dish, less installed height. You can also use a valve lock designed to change the location where the retainer is positioned on the valve stem. We sell heavy-duty, machined valve locks in std. height and also +.050 and -.050 heights to fine tune your installation. Longer length valves can be used to increase installed height.





The shorter the installed height (the more the spring is compressed), the higher the valve spring seat pressure will be, and the less distance the spring can travel before the spring reaches coil bind.

The taller the installed height, the lower the valve spring seat pressure will be, and the further the spring can travel before coil bind occurs.

(Note: Eliminating coil bind by installing the spring at a taller installed height is not a desirable option. The resulting reduced seat pressure will lead to a significant loss in performance and could also result in engine damage caused by the valve bouncing on the valve seat due to the reduced seat pressure. The best procedure is to select a spring that provides the desired seat pressure at the installed height on the head.)

What is the importance of valve spring seat pressure?

Adequate seat pressure is necessary to:

1) Insure tight contact between the valve face and the valve seat to seal the combustion chamber and provide proper heat transfer from the valve to the cylinder head.

2) Keep the valve from bouncing on its return to the seat. If the valve bounces, cylinder pressure (power) is lost. Repeated bouncing of the valve is like a hammering action that can result in the head of the valve deforming ("tuliping") or actually breaking from the valve stem resulting in catastrophic engine failure.

3) With a hydraulic cam the valve spring must exert enough pressure against the valve lifter (or lash adjuster) plunger to keep it centered in its travel to prevent "lifter pump-up". When pump-up occurs the valve is held slightly off its seat resulting in a significant loss of power and possibly a misfire. It is this loss of power and misfire that is often misdiagnosed as a fuel system or ignition system problem.

High oil pressures and high viscosity oils aggravate "lifter pump-up" in hydraulic lifters. When either oil pressure or oil viscosity is going to be increased beyond the manufacturer's recommendation, a corresponding increase in spring seat pressure is necessary to prevent "pump-up" (even with an "anti-pump-up" lifter). Since oil viscosity in no way relates to the oil's film strength, and the scuffing protection provided by the film strength, Crane Cams recommends following the OE manufacturer's recommendation with respect to engine oil.

Common Misconception:

Many people mistakenly think that using higher seat pressures causes a reduction in the horsepower delivered to the flywheel because higher seat pressures (and also higher spring rates required for high performance) require horsepower to compress the springs. This thinking is simply incomplete! For every valve that is opening and its valve spring being compressed, another valve is closing and its valve spring is expanding. This expansion returns the energy to the valve train and the engine. This results in a net power loss of "0" hp. Many engineering texts refer to this as the "regenerative characteristic" of the valve train. Recent tests at Crane have shown no horsepower loss on a hydraulic roller equipped engine when changing the seat pressure from 135# to 165#. Power actually improved significantly at top end, probably due to better control of the relatively heavy valves in the engine.

In Summary:

Always run enough seat pressure to control the valve action as it returns to the seat. Heavier valves require more seat pressure. Strong, lightweight valves require less seat pressure. When in doubt, run slightly more seat pressure . . . not less.

What is Valve Spring Open Pressure and Why is it Important?

Open pressure is the pressure against the retainer when the valve is at its maximum open point. Adequate open pressure is necessary to control the valve lifter as it first accelerates up the opening flank of the cam lobe and then quickly decelerates to pass over the nose of the cam which causes the valve to change direction. Inadequate open pressure will allow the lifter to "loft" or "jump" over the nose of the cam (referred to as "valve train separation", or "valve float"). When the lifter strikes the closing flank with a severe impact, camshaft life is drastically shortened.

Open pressure is a function of seat pressure, net valve lift, and spring rate. It must be sufficient to control the valve action at the highest expected engine speed without being excessive. Excessive open pressure aggravates pushrod flexing which in itself aggravates "lofting" of the valve and valve train separation. Selecting a spring to give the proper open pressure, while minimizing pushrod flexing, provides many opportunities for developing a unique, horsepower-enhancing combination. Obviously, lightweight valves require lower open pressures and tend to reduce pushrod flexing and valve train separation.

One final point: Excessive valve spring open pressure will result in reduced camshaft and lifter life.

What is a Valve Spring Coil Bind and how does it relate to spring travel and valve lift?

When the valve spring is compressed until its coils touch one another and can travel no further, it is said to be in coil bind. The catalog shows the approximate coil bind height for the various Crane Cams valve springs. To measure this you must install the retainer in the valve spring, then compress the spring until it coil binds. Now measure from the bottom side of the retainer to the bottom of the spring. This measurement is the coil bind height. This can be done on the cylinder head with a spring compression tool (part number 99417-1), in a bench vise, or in a professional valve spring tester.





Using the above figure, subtract the coil bind height "B" from the valve spring installed height "A". The difference "C" is the maximum spring travel. The spring travel must always be at least .060" greater than the full lift of the valve. This safety margin of .060" (or more) is necessary to avoid the dangers of coil bind and over-stressing the spring.

If coil bind occurs, the resulting mechanical interference will severely damage the camshaft and valve train components.

How do you increase spring travel?

The valve spring must have sufficient travel (plus .060" safety margin) to accommodate the amount of valve lift created by the camshaft and/or an increase in rocker arm ratio. To increase spring travel you can either raise the installed height (but this will lessen the spring tension), or change to a spring with additional travel. If there is not a standard diameter spring available with enough travel, the cylinder heads will have to be machined and a larger outside diameter (O.D.) spring installed.

Crane Cams offers some special valve springs in standard diameters which eliminates having to machine the cylinder heads. For example, a small block Chevrolet engine can use spring kit part number 11309-1 to handle .550" to .600" valve lift. The 85-00 302 Ford hydraulic roller engines can use spring kit part number 44308-1 to handle .550" lift.

*continued from Crane website*

Besides coil bind, what other types of mechanical interference should you look for?

When you increase the valve lift with a bigger cam or increased rocker arm ratio, you must be sure there is no interference between any of the moving parts. Some of the components that must be inspected for clearance are:

1) The distance from the bottom of the valve spring retainer and the top of the valve stem guide, or the top of the valve stem seal, must be equal to the net valve lift of the valve, plus at least .060" more for clearance.





2) When using rocker arms mounted on a stud, the length of the slot in the rocker arm body must be inspected to be sure it is long enough to avoid binding on the stud. The ends of the slot must be at least .060" away from the stud when the rocker is at full valve lift and when the valve is closed. Be especially careful when using stock Chevy stamped steel rockers and any high performance stock or aftermarket cam. These rockers will typically not provide enough clearance at full-lift, and will bind on the rocker stud.

Crane Cams offers long slot and extra long slot steel rocker arms to relieve this interference problem. Aluminum roller rocker arms may be required to provide sufficient travel on larger lift camshafts or when using longer ratio rockers.

3) The underside of the rocker arm body cannot touch the valve spring retainer. You will need at least .040" clearance to the retainer throughout the full movement of the rocker arm. If necessary, a different shape retainer or rocker arm design will be required. In some cases, installing a lash cap on the tip of the valve stem can provide the clearance required.

4) Valve to piston clearance must be checked to be sure there is sufficient clearance. The intake valve must have at least .100" clearance to the piston and at least .120" clearance on the exhaust valve.

What is the critical point of crank rotation for checking valve to piston clearance?

The critical point for both valves is the "Overlap Period" as the exhaust cycle is ending and the intake cycle is beginning. You must start checking the clearance before and continue after T.D.C. on both the intake and exhaust valves to be sure you have the correct readings through the overlap period.
 

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
Tools to aid in the installation of your aluminum rocker arms:
Lock Nut Adjusting Tool: 778-66781
Feeler Gauge: 555-80500
Offset Feeler Gauge: 555-80501
Feeler Gauge and Handle Kit: 555-80502
Pushrod Length Checker Small Block Chevrolet 3/8" Stud: 778-66789
Pushrod Length Checker Small Block Chevrolet 7/16" Stud: 778-66790
Pushrod Length Checker Big Block Chevrolet 7/16" Stud: 660-42133
Adjustable Checking Pushrod Small Block Chevrolet 5/16": 270-99726-2
Adjustable Checking Pushrod Big Block Chevrolet 5/16": 270-99730-2
Adjustable Checking Pushrod Small Block Ford 5/16": 270-99725-2

1-800-345-4545 jegs.com
 

Dustytrix

Active Member
Grumpy, I have been thinking again , about pulling out my pressed in rocker studs and putting in threaded ones , is this something that I can do myself? The heads are 906 vortec bosses already cut for high lift cam. I plan on not going over 6000 rpm and rarely that much. The cam I chose has 5.25 lift with full 1.6 roller rockers. So would I even need the screw in studs if I dont dog the motor all the time? :?:
 
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