Street Tunnel Camino

Don't believe me? You can test it for yourself by opening up any unused approx. 1/8 - 3/16" diameter vacuum port or hose.
View attachment 14436
You mentioned that earlier in the thread, but I do not have any extra ports or vacuum outlets for brakes or any other purpose...so no air bleeding for me...
Only way to balance air would be if I drill the plates or add the air bleed or reduce fuel by reducing the jets by drilling, tapping and making brass jet inserts...
One seems a lot easier than the others...
 
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Setting up for installing different size jets that you make for the Idle Fuel Restrictor (IFR) will
allow you to adjust it leaner by going to a smaller orifice. Did you read the links above ?

I went from the original orifice size of .035" to .024" for my IFR.



Don't let me talk you into doing something that you are not comfortable with, proceed at your own risk
.

I did not read them last night and did assume just opening the jets...

But I have read them before and after your review I fully understand drilling tapping plugs and redrilling to size... And am fully capable of preforming said operations...

So... I guess I have my work out for me, but at least it's starting to make sense and I'm working on areas directly related to my issues..
 
So... I guess I have my work out for me, but at least it's starting to make sense and I'm working on areas directly related to my issues..

Ok, well let us know when you get your parts in and we can proceed full speed ahead !!!
 
Ok, well let us know when you get your parts in and we can proceed full speed ahead !!!
So just to jump ahead on parts, looks like 6-32 brass allan screws is all I need for the conversation... I saw in your thread you ordered 6s-8s and 10s but looked like 6s worked in the end ?
 
IIRC, the emulsion tubes and IFR's were 6-32.
The Power Valve Channel Restrictors were 8-32.
Low & High Speed Air Bleeds were 10-32.

So it just depends on how far you want to go with drill and tapping your carbs. I bet the cost of shipping
will be no different whether you order one or all three.
.
 
I suppose if I'm going this far might as well go all in...

Did you use standard taps or bottoming taps for those short holes?

I'm going to assume bottoming taps...
 
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Excellent question Randystys, I looked thru my orders on Amazon and found the taps below for
6-32 and 8-32, but nothing for a 10-32. Not sure how I knew that, but my links to others that have
done this before might provide more info.

This is what I bought thru Amazon .....

upload_2020-8-10_18-45-56.png

Champion 302-6-32-S Carbon Hand Tap Set Taper-Bottom-Plug, 3-Piece
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004OCTWUO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Champion 302-8-32-S Carbon Hand Tap Set Taper-Bottom-Plug, 3-Piece
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004OENF5K/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I found this 10-32 set from Amazon if you need it:
https://www.amazon.com/Drill-Americ...ywords=10-32+bottom+tap&qid=1597102634&sr=8-3

Man ...... you are really stretching MY MEMORY to it's limits !!! :):cool:

.
 
One last time-
Reducing fuel is not the same as adding air.
Listen to what your engine is telling you.
Simply adding a PCV valve (controlled vacuum leak below the throttle blades) is a step in the right direction.
 
carb1.jpg carb2.jpg carb3.jpg carb4.jpg carb5.jpg carb6.jpg

I hear you, I've been leaning towards drilling holes in the plates to add air rather than reconfigure my whole metering block if I can get away with it.., but I know your against that and your going to have to explain why...
Looking at the pictures you can see there are no ports in the base of the carb to add air below the plates on any side, no port for pvc or brake vacuum... Only port visible in the manifold is one I drilled and tapped below plates so I could get a vacuum reading..
So my question on this whole valve thing is.. sounds like I would have to drill into carb base or spacer and it would be a single point air entry (unbalanced across the runners) where drilling tiny holes in primary plates spreads the additional air across the manifold for uniform feed... So why or how exactly do I have to do that ?
 
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I would do what Love302 is suggesting. Drill another hole to make a spot for the controlled vacuum leak. Find a spot that centered on top section of the T Ram say between the carbs.
 
Ok, this obviously will not be perfectly balanced, but for right now, AS A TEST, remove the vacuum cap from the port you added for a vacuum gauge. Go for a ride and see if the engine behaves better or worse.

That vacuum leak actually helps engines with lumpy camshafts because the engine needs more AIR (not fuel) at idle. When you raise the idle with the adjusting screw on the carb(s) - 2 in your case, you end up taking the carb off of it's idle circuit and into the transition circuit. And that leads to even more fuel being added to the mixture - everything you don't want.
You have the big mother thumper cam. Great for cruise-in rumpity-rump sound only, sucks for actual performance.

You can drill your throttle plates to accomplish the same as the air bleed valve. But which is easier? What happens when you drill the holes too big?
Here is a calculator for estimating the hole sizes to drill. Good luck whichever way you go.
 

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  • TB Hole Calculator.xls
    27.5 KB · Views: 2
Idle Quality Issues with Performance Camshafts

Because of the design of a performance camshaft, its increased lift and duration, and more radical overlap geometry; the engine is going to need more air at idle to run. Most are familiar with the fact that an engine with a radical camshaft idles at a higher speed and has less intake manifold vacuum. Several things happen as a result of this:

  • In order to get more air into the engine the throttle plates need to be open more which causes the loss of idle circuit adjustability.
  • Power valves need to be readjusted or changed for the correct value.
  • Power brakes may not want to work because of lack of engine vacuum.
  • Vacuum advance controls may not function properly because of lack of engine vacuum.
  • Ported vacuum signals from the carburetor may be present at the throttle opening that you now have at idle.
  • So, how to deal with this? If you go to any manufacturer and tell them that the idle screws don’t seem to make any difference in the way the engine runs, whether they are screwed all the way or all the way out, they will all tell you the same thing: The most likely scenario is that you have opened the throttle so far to make the engine run that the engine is now not running on the idle circuit fuel, but on transition circuit fuel. This is not ever going to work. They will give you different strategies to get the throttle plates closed down to where the idle circuits will work again. This problem has been solved in the past by drilling holes through the throttle plates to let more air into the intake manifold instead of changing the throttle plate angle. This is a hit and miss operation, but it works great. The problem is that if you drill the holes too big you either have to install new throttle plates and start all over again or solder the holes you drilled and begin again. And when you get done you’re stuck with those holes because they are obviously non-adjustable.
Barry Grant has fixed this issue with some of his carburetors by installing an adjustable air bleed in the base of the carburetor that can be accessed by removing the air cleaner stud and slipping a thin screwdriver down through the stud hole. You can now adjust the proper amount of air so that the throttle plates are nearly closed, which restores the idle circuit to where it is adjustable. Great invention! I needed to make a similar adjustment on my hot rod because of the large solid lifter cam, so I kind of cheated a little and took the air cleaner stud out and drilled a 3/16” hole straight down through the bowl casting (this is a Holley 750). Then I drilled a couple of small holes straight into the stud housing. The cavity below the stud housing in a Holley is hollow and sits right on top of an equalizing port in the base plate. The equalizing port makes a connection between all the throttle plates for balance purposes. The air from the bleed I just drilled into the stud housing will get to the throttle plates through this port. Now I can use the air cleaner stud to control the air bleed by screwing it in and out. When I get the throttle plates to where the idle screws work well, I then use a lock nut on the stud to hold it in place and use the idle screws to get my target air to fuel ratio.

On carbs with a 5/16” air cleaner stud, instead of drilling the holes in the stud boss I drill a hole straight up through the center of the stud, then drill a hole horizontally to meet the vertical hole. Now I can use a lock nut to control the air bleed instead of turning the air cleaner stud in and out. There is an attachment at the end of this that shows how the process is performed.

Of course there are issues with attaining your target air fuel ratio. The idle circuit air bleeds, if they are too big, won’t let enough fuel siphon from the bowl to get the air fuel ratio you are looking for, so you may have to reduce the size of the air bleeds by replacing them with smaller bleeds. If you have the money to get a performance carburetor body or a really well built performance carburetor, it will come with replaceable air bleeds. If the idle circuit is continuously rich then the air bleeds will have to be opened. Buy a set of small, numbered drill bits for this operation and go one size at a time.

Note: Whenever you change throttle position you change the relationship of the accelerator pump lever to its cam. That can create problems, so whenever you turn that idle SPEED screw, recheck the accelerator pump adjustment.

Note: The very best way to adjust the air fuel ratio is with the help of a tool such as the Innovate Motorsports LM1. It uses a wide band oxygen sensor that gives an exact readout of air/fuel for you. But beware! If you have any kind of a misfire condition the readings you will get will not be accurate. This system uses an oxygen sensor, and if you have misfires for any reason the resultant oxygen content in the exhaust will be high, indicating a lean exhaust condition. Only look at oxygen sensor information if the engine is running correctly on all of its cylinders. A rough engine idle because of a big camshaft will undoubtedly be the result of misfire from an improperly adjusted fuel system. You’ll be surprised at how much milder the engine will idle with that big cam once you get fueling straightened out.

Here are some other articles:
https://documents.holley.com/lit705rev.pdf See pg 14 Idle-Eze

Idle-Eze
Idle-Eze.PNG


The Idle-Eze (Figure B) was created by Demon Carburetion chiefly to ease the complications associated with idle-speed adjustment. This device can introduce an extra source of idle air to the engine without disrupting the critical relationship between the idle-speed adjustment screws, the throttle blades, and the transfer slots.

The Idle-Eze has access to air above the throttle blades and can transfer it beneath them, if necessary. This introduces an extra source of air to the engine that can alter the idle speed by as much as 500rpm without touching the idle speed adjusting screws.

https://www.chevelles.com/forums/13-performance/138912-drill-not-throttle-plates-holley.html
https://www.supermotors.net/articles/nsmc-issue01-a1-1.php
https://nastyz28.com/threads/drilling-throttle-plates.9027/#post-56408
[URL]https://nastyz28.com/threads/low-signal-transfer-slots-holes-in-t-plates.159755/

[/URL]


 
Excellent thank you that's the kind of explanation I was looking for...
The drilled plates, the screw, the PVC valve all add air and allow the throttle plates to close over the transition slots as intended...just different ways to the same end...
And they all seem a bit less complex than modifications on the metering block.
I do have an extra set of plates as well as an extra pair of carbs on the shelf, and I'm starting out small so not too worried about drilling holes.

Now this is about the third time I heard that the Mother Thumper cam is a poser...and that's not what I'm about... I think Grumpy gave me a suggestion (I'll have to go back and look) but I'm open for suggestions for a proper hot street/race ready cam for the Camino... Specs are in first post, I can add any details if needed
I'm ready to put it in before I go much further trying to tune to this cam...
Thanks everyone for your suggestions and help.
 
You're welcome.
To get you started, here is a copy and paste of my notes from my 302 Chevy engine.

Run #5


I read that these carbs are calibrated for PCV connected – blocked off would therefore be richer (less air ??).
4000 rpm pill & set timing for 37 deg total advance
18 deg initial - no vac adv – PCV connected


Using the power brakes vac port at rear of carb, I will try to find the proper size hole to feed enough idle air to be able to close the throttle blades and get the idle and transition circuits working. This looks promising, because this added air will lean the overall idle mixture, and since the 750 primary metering blocks are already in there, it just might be perfect.


Results - the engine likes a .250" vacuum leak hole. This would be equivalent to (2) .177" holes in each primary throttle plate, or (4) .125" holes if there was 1 hole in each plate (PRI & SEC). Idle vacuum is still about the same (7" @1050), but I was able to close the throttle some (now set to less than 1½ turns in) and mixture screws are at 2¼ turns out. The rev from idle to 4000 rpm seems to have less of a flat spot.

When this carb was removed, the transfer slots showed squares!

Run #12

#1407 Edelbrock 750 cfm carb with 4" Yellow step-up springs* and rear adj air bleed.
WITH TURBOS.
Results - Best settings: ½ turn IN idle SPEED screw
2 T OUT idle MIX screws
air bleed @1/3 open (turned in to lower the idle speed to @1050 rpm while keeping the idle SPEED screw at ½ turn IN for "squares" on the transition slots).
6-8" vacuum 36 deg advance (centrifugal still locked out)

Engine revs nicely both slow and fast with NO HOLES OR FLAT SPOTS in transition.

If I pull the PCV hose off carb, the idle speeds up - 10" vac @1300 rpm.

If I pull the turbo mufflers off, the mixture screws need to be richened by 3/4 turn each.

Remember, you have 2 carbs, so the hole sizes will need to be smaller for each.
And when you double the diameter, the area is increased by 4 times - not double. Area = Pi multiplied by (r)squared





 
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Okay so I found the cam grumpy was talking about...Crower stage 4 Ultra Beast think we'll go that way drop that in and have a good starting point to tune to.

So Grumpy, if you're reading this, is this still the cam you would recommend for my setup ? In the intro thread you mentioned it, but said you might want more details.
 
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