timing chains

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
Ill make this real easy, CLOYES TRUE ROLLER TIMING CHAINS are a FAR more durable option than the cheap single roller imports, and many of the import double roller clones, that look like the CLOYES TIMING SETS and they are far less likely to stretch or fail easily, or quickly, and the timing marks and indexing are usually very close to correct unlike some of the imports from china and India I see sold at auto parts stores for $20 and under, yes theres no doubt the cheaper sets work (at least for awhile) and that the CLOYES BRAND COST MORE!, and yes there are other well built timing sets and even gear drives available
but you tend to get a better quality steel,more precise indexing, and heat treatment with the name brand parts in my experience
IVE had two REALLY badly indexed import timing chain sets that were easily 4-7 degrees out of index Ive inspected in the shop , so I try not to allow their use in any serious engine being built.
BTW one little trick you might want to know is placing a timing set in a pot covered with a mix of moly assembly lube about 15%-20% and marvel mystery oil about 80%, add a cooking thermometer and heat to about 230 degrees on a stove , stir it with a metal fork slightly to remove air and let it cool slowly before installing it, this tends to get the lube into the rollers and reduce wear.
its also a real good idea to drill the pass side oil plug under the timing cover with a .030-.035 drill so oil constantly sprays on the timing chain during use,and while IM discussing cam timing sets Id say that about 90% of the time a good CLOYES timing chain set should be used on street cars vs a gear drive if that's one option your thinking about.

a basic timing chain set like this from cloyes works great in most SBC applications
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-1100/


drillplug.jpg

drilling a .035 hole in the pass side lifter oil gallery oil feed plug to provide a constant spray of oil to the back of the top timing gear helps reduce wear
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timinggear800.jpg

drilling the pass side oil passage plug with a 1/32" bit so oil constantly sprays on the timing gears helps extend chain and gear life.

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be sure not to insert oil passage plugs into oil gallery passages too deeply
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passplug.png

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http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part ... Gear-Sets/

http://www.milodon.com/gear-drives/gear ... -chrys.asp

http://www.petejacksongeardrives.net/

http://www.petejacksongeardrives.net/in ... dfaqs3.htm

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=205&hilit=jackson

http://www.summitracing.com/search/?key ... ller&dds=1

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-3100/

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=206&p=242&hilit=+gasket+synthetic#p242

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-3510TX9/

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grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
If your having a problem indexing a cam , installing a distributor or timing the engine its supposed to be at TDC, during the install as a starting point and ID highly recommend degreeing in the cam vs the dot-to-dot process,you might want to re-read these threads again,CAREFULLY as both the threads and sub links hold a great deal of info, don,t rush the process its MANDATORY YOU GET IT CORRECT, doing it FAST is, far down the list
FIRST GEN, SBC CLOYES ROLLER TIMING SET
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-1100/overview/

MARK IV BBC CLOYES ROLLER TIMING SET 1965-90
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-c-3024x/overview/

MARK VI BBC CLOYES ROLLER TIMING SET 1991-95
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...-specific/engine-family/chevy-big-block-gen-v

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viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90

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viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=196

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viewtopic.php?f=70&t=1411

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lets drop to basics,
the crank socket has an index groove that matches a key in the crank snout, and you must use the matched set of timing gears (cam and crank) not for example use the new cam gear with the old crank gear for two main reasons, first the old gears have formed a wear pattern, that won,t exactly match the new chain and that tends to accelerate wear on the new chain slightly, and second , different manufacturers tend to mark and index the gears slightly differently, and while in theory both the pin in the cam gear and the wood-rif key in the crank gear limit the chances of a mis-match theres occasionally a couple of degrees of difference in mis-matched sets
be aware that some crank gears have more than one index slot to index to the crank key and each slot is marked and you must use the correct matching marks indicating (ZERO) that match the crank slot marks
Assembly4.jpg

above is a picture of how a typical timing chain looks with the DOT-TO-DOT install having the crank gear at 12 o'clock ,(B) and cam gear (A)indexed at 6 o'clock, NOTICE THE WOOD RIFF KEY AT 2 O'CLOCK,IF ITS ANYPLACE ELSE YOU HAVE IT INDEXED INCORRECTLY(C) naturally youll need to rotate the engine one full revolution to get the upper gear index to 12 o'clock and the lower gear back to 12 o'clock before dropping in the distributor
CamTimingGear04.jpg

look closely SLOT A uses a different TDC mark (A) than slot (R), which has its own TDC mark(R)
CrankGear_0222.jpg

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=901&p=1462&hilit=puller#p1462
most guys oil the crank snout and heat the crank gear slightly and tap it on with a large socket

but yes theres a tool
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-4789/
cca-4789_w.jpg

notice the (O) thats supposed to be indexed at 12 o,clock
and matched to a cam timing gear at 6 o,clock, which temporarily places the #6 cylinder at TDC, you then simply rotate the crank one complete turn, bring the cam timing gear to its 12 0,clock position,and the #1 cylinders at TDC and you can drop the intake on, and distributor in and adjust the valve lash clearance (solid lifters) or pre-load (hydraulic lifters, and set the ignition timing at about 8 degrees btdc as a starting location

you can use a dead blow hammer or the damper tool to install the gear
41800.gif

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=41800

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/OTC-6505/

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when installing an oil pan gasket its always preferable to install the front timing cover first if possible, as it makes sealing the oil pan to the block with the current one piece synthetic gaskets far easier

the front timing cover seal, that provides the oil seal on the damper as it slides into the cover on the crank snout is pressed in from the front, most guys tap it in with a plastic mallet,after carefully cleaning and repainting the stock cover or buying a new chrome timing chain cover as they are fairly cheap,youll want to be coating the outside edge of the seal with a liquid sealant while the timing cover is supported from the rear on a block of wood,the seals knocked out from the rear with a flat blade screw driver and a small hammer , used at an angle on the inside lip, replace it so the inner seals lip angles in towards the crank not out toward the front damper
BUT most guys simply buy a new cover since they are cheap and don,t bother cleaning the old one if it looks damaged, at $8-$10, for a new cover its hardly worth taking a chance, with the old one if its damaged

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G3200/

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Dustytrix

Active Member
I just read where you said drill out the oil pass plug. I noticed on my L31 that 2 of the plugs had been drilled out to spray oil on the timing chain, would that be normal for gm to put those holes in the plugs? I was just wondering, I am really trying to pay attention to all the details this time instead of throwing new pistons and rings and cranking the engine. :p
 

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
allowing for extra oil spraying onto the timing chain assembly by drilling small holes in the forward oil passage plugs is an old engine builders mod that even the factory in some rare cases used.
its simply a reasonable way to get extra lubricant to the timing chain assembly, which because its spinning tends to throw off oil rapidly so its in constant need of more oil flow. its designed to get most of its oil in the form of a constant oil fog in the crank case,generated by the spinning rotating assembly and theres a larger upper hole in the block wall and the oil pan forward section that allows oil to slosh onto the timing chain when you hit the brakes, but unless your running right up at the full mark on the dip stick that oil sloshing tends to be limited, so adding the hole to the oil passage forward plugs tends to help.

oilpassageplugs.gif


viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1170

a number #64 or #65 drill is about correct
 

Dustytrix

Active Member
Well Grumpy it went as I suspected, I got my rotating assembly but I think the timing chain is wrong. The timing kit they sent is Cloyes 9-1145, I was late asking you which one I needed, the kit was already ordered but I assumed the 9-1157 would be sent. Can I use the 9-1145 or do I need to send it back? The engine is 1999 L31. Thanks for all your time and info.
 

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
http://www.cloyes.com/

Technical Help

Monday through Friday
8:00AM - 4:30PM Central Time

Phone:


(479) 646-1662 - Ext. 228

personally ID call and ask, before sending it back,.... but Id also suggest that since its not the listed timing set for the application, that although it might be able to work, in that application theres a reason they have a different part number and parts that are different, I think youll find the suggested set is thinner to compensate for the cam retaining ring behind the cam gear to allow more clearance with the timing cover
 

Dustytrix

Active Member
I got in touch with Cloyes today the rep told me the 9- 1157 timing gear kit was for L31 blocks when using the original timing gear cover (plastic) since I will be using an aftermarket cover the 9-1145 would work. The plastic one is not as deep as after market type so the 9-1145 could rub against the plastic but the aftermarket type will clear. Thanks for pointing me the right direction. Oh yea I got my L31 block clearanced for the eagle 3.75 crank this weekend, it was not hard at all. Just time consuming I am taking it back to a machine shop tomorrow for cam bearing installation.
 

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=1479&p=3332#p3332

you might find this useful

CCA-4760.jpg

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4760
READ THIS BELOW
jackson1a.jpg

jackson2a.jpg

jacks1.jpg

jacks2.jpg


THE GEAR TEETH BELOW DON,T LOOK PROPERLY LINED UP< BUT THESE ARE GOOD PICTURES
jacks3.jpg

jacks4.jpg

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http://www.petejacksongeardrives.net/in ... dfaqs3.htm

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=430

http://books.google.com/books?id=HfbRYV ... es&f=false

http://www.summersbrothersracing.com/ca ... drives.htm

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if you correctly install the quite cam drive per the instructions you'll have zero problems, but in most cases a CLOYES CHAIN DRIVE is a lower cost option, now you'll eventually hear guys talk about gear drives causing problems with valve train harmonics and every time Ive researched that it was in reference to the two gear reverse rotation, gear drives, the current three and four gear systems have enough clearance or slack that ,thats not been a problem
pjj-327-1c.jpg


edelbrock sells a similar gear cam drive


http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new ... ives.shtml
 
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grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
I was recently asked if installing a gear drive on the cam would be a good idea,
well IVE USED A PETE JACKSON quite GEAR DRIVE FOR OVER 12 YEARS ON MY CORVETTE,
BECAUSE IT MAINTAINS ROCK STEADY cam, and ignition TIMING.

but I would have to say that, the QUITE GEAR DRIVE, OPTIONS, the only one I,d suggest ,
I don,t know if the companys still in business,
they don,t seem to wear or get loose like a chain drive can,
but I have not seen a new Jackson gear drive set for sale recently.
http://www.jegs.com/v/Pete-Jackson/782

I can,t even imagine running the noisy version, it would drive me totally insane in a few hours time
look, the current cloyes timing chain and gear sets work just fine and cost less than a cam gear drive, its very easy to properly install either the chain or gear cam drive, and I can,t think of any reason the gear drive is a vastly better option, in fact it can in some limited applications make your computers knock sensor crazy causing tuning issues

listen to this u-tube video and then figure out if you want the noisy gear drive/, personally Id strongly suggest its a dumb idea, but hey thats me, and you might like that mind numbing constant metallic wining rubbing noise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... hPgYvDvkmk
 
8

87vette81big

Guest
Great info Grumpy.
I like a Cloyes True Roller Timing chain.

I dont recommend a Gear Drive for dirt track circle racing.
About 5 years ago, I was deep into helping a younger friend in street stock at my local 1/4 mile high banked clay and dirt oval track.
Steve just had to have a gear drive. Isky oval track solid flat tappet cam. Loved the gear whine noise. Hated it myself.
It lasted most of the season that Pete Jackson gear drive. The noisy cut race version.
End of season point chase. Big race. Steve led the points in street stock. Season champion if he won that night.
Figured we had it in the bag. Big trophy. Bragging rights.
Honorable mention in th local newspaper.
Feature run was up. The 369ci 3-9/16 inch stoke sbc 14.0: 1 engine running strong and clean. Valves set perfect. I can pick off all 8 cylinders hitting exact as he comes by in turn 3 at 3,000 warming up the engine.
Green flag drops, 25 car field. Dust is flying, there charging hard. Steve is in the lead and holding position lap after lap. No wrecks. Just balls out driving and the 369 sbc turning 7500 rpms as usual.
Last lap. Steve is going to win........
Flag man ready to drop the checkered flag.....
Steve is coming out of turn 3 about 90....
Sudden a ball of blue and orange flames shoot out from the passenger side of the car......
Now oil smoke...
Cars fly by.....
He coasts in at 8th......
We come in 2nd......
2nd place loser as we used to call it dirt tracking.
Next morning engine tear down.
The Pete Jackson Gear Drive broke.....exploded apart.
I hate them......
Next year, we only used a Cloyes Billet True Roller Race Set. What I wanted to use the season before. Cloyes never failed. Ran the entire season. No engine failure.

Brian
 

Indycars

Administrator
Staff member

Were you a writer in another life. It's most impressive when a mechanical/engineering
guy also has a way with words.....and you've got it!!!

You make reading technical information interesting! :!:

 
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