transmission cooler info and derale trans cool pans,

Discussion in 'transmission and Drive train' started by grumpyvette, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    OVERLY HOT TRANS FLUID TEMPERATURE QUICKLY KILLS, A TRANSMISSION, SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCING TRANSMISSION DURABILITY, AND I'D POINT OUT THAT REDUCING THE TEMPERATURE OF TRANSMISSION FLUID ENTERING A RADIATOR HELPS REDUCE HEAT LOADS ON THE RADIATOR ,WHICH TENDS TO REDUCE ENGINE OPERATIONAL TEMPS.

    ITS GENERALLY SMART, too Do all you can to keep fluid as cool as possible.
    a deeper transmission oil pan with its increased fluid volume and in many cases a ribbed or finned surface that significantly increases the transmission pans surface area allowing it to dissipate heat rapidly,[​IMG]
    This is an option if you have the ground clearance under the car/trucks transmission, and remember, Higher stall converters produce more heat so they need more cooling. YOU may not need the Biggest cooler that can be installed , but you obviously should be calculating what will be needed and have that installed, and coolers with an auxiliary electric fan are a huge asset, while a deeper ribbed transmission pan may help a auxiliary fluid cooler with a powered electrical fan, thats rated at 24000lbs-35000 lbs added to a performance car can produce a much more significant drop in trans fluid temps without the reduced ground clearance.
    If your thinking of adding an oil cooler ,the first question ID have is WHY are you adding an oil cooler and WHAT are your current oil temps that require one? the same question applies to trans fluid coolers, but its almost mandatory to add a trans fluid cooler in the case of a higher stall converter as most stock transmission coolers are barely adequate to maintain reasonable temps under normal driving conditions on the stock components.
    most hydraulic supply shops can very easily fabricate flex hydraulic lines with matching ends at any length required,and theres plenty of auxiliary transmission fluid coolers on the market and from experience I can assure you that if you need a trans cooler the type with the built in fan and at least 1/2" or AN#8 0r in a few cases AN#10 fittings are by far the best choice,simply because, it allows you to expose a great deal more of the trans fluid to the cooling effects of the surface area of the auxillery oil/trans fluid cooler far faster and more efficiently, with far lower restriction to flow rates, and obviously youll need to carefully measure where your going to mount the cooler and run the lines before ordering a cooler but the larger the surface area the better in most applications.
    keep in mind line size AN#8 prefered
    look at the fan its using, cfm rating on fan-over 1000cfm prefered
    and obviously verify it will fit into the space available
    example
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-15900
    [​IMG]
    keep in mind that any trans fluid cooler should have a minimum of AN#8 or 1/2" line size and an electric cooling fan, normally youll see ratings like (22000, lb vehicle weight )

    one of the most common mistakes less than experienced performance enthusiasts, face and very commonly over-look, is the fact that the internal cross sectional area on many hydraulic and fuel line fittings are considerably more restrictive to flow that the fuel limes or hydraulic lines inside diameter they were designed to be used with, and it varies a great deal between different manufacturers, now ideally the fittings internal passage cross sectional area is both consistent and the same or greater that the tube or hydraulic line size, it listed to match, , so a 1/2" inside diameter fuel line, or hydraulic lines?hoses, for example should have components for the connections and fittings that have significantly smaller internal cross sectional areas, it does you very little good to use lets say, AN#8 or half inch fuel lines if the internal cross sectional area of the connections and fitting used with those lines is only 3/8" or smaller in cross sectional area,this is an area where dealing with a local hydraulic supply shop that has the correct tools and fittings to custom fabricate your fuel lines, coolant or lubrication lines is a very good idea!
    talk to a local professional at your local hydraulic supply, measure accurately, take the time to explain what your trying to accomplish and take several pictures to show them what your doing, and get them too fabricate any high pressure fuel or coolant lines and related fittings



    [​IMG]
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    *
    Up to 45 GPH= 3/4 GPM = 5/16" or -04 AN
    *
    Up to 90 GPH = 1.5 GPM= 3/8" or -06 AN
    *
    Up to 250 GPH =4.2 GPM= 1/2" or -08 AN
    nearly ideal for transmission and oil coolers :D
    *
    Up to 450 GPH =7.5 GPM= 5/8" or -10 AN
    *
    Up to 900 GPH = 15GPM 3/4"or -12 AN

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    the problem many of us have is in finding the room to install the cooler and for many of us the price seems a bit high, but if you can spend $150-$350 on a cooler that will easily prevent the vast majority of transmission failures related to running too hot
    (MANY IF NOT MOST DURABILITY ISSUES RELATE TO THIS)
    and a decent performance transmission and torque converter could easily cost 10 too 15 times the cost of the transmission cooler
    the cost seems to be easier to justify.
    yes the coolers with the AN#6 /3/8" line size are cheaper , but they generally are flow restrictive and in my opinion a waste of time and money

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-15820
    [​IMG]

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-15830
    [​IMG]

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/flx-45951
    [​IMG]

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/prm-13182

    [​IMG]


    a restriction to flow will generally be the part of the connecting lines with the smallest cross sectional area, if you look at most automotive oil or transmission coolers they have AN#6 (3/8")or AN#8 (1/2")connections, so lines significantly larger won,t do much for increasing flow rates

    its CRITICAL to keep the trans fluid clean and ideally changed about every 70K miles and use of a auxiliary cooler that keeps the fluid temp under about 170F is going to extend service life a good deal longer

    DEEPER transmission oil pans come in a wide range of designs, some have air flow tubes to aid trans fluid cooling, Ive used them in the past,but these tend to reduce under car clearance so measure, GROUND CLEARANCE carefully WITH TWO PEOPLE IN THE CAR, and think about speed bumps and raised manhole lids
    keep in mind you need to know your homework, youll want to jack your car up and place a 2x4 with a block of modeling clay under the current transmission oil pan an then jack the car down, and have you and a friend sit in it to get a realistic idea as to current transmission oil pan to road clearance before thinking about use of a deeper oil pan on the car,youll want to maintain a 3.5"-4" MINIMUM road clearance to avoid damage from most road hazards like taller than usually speed bumps and manhole lids etc. if you can,t drive over a 3 foot long section of 4x4 lumber (which BTW measure about 3.5" x 3.5") in the street without hitting the transmission or engine oil pan your unlikely to clear some of the taller speed bumps and manhole covers projecting out of road surfaces

    If you decide on a pan with those air flow cool tubes ,that can keep the cool air flow thru the hot trans fluid youll need to keep the tubes free from road crud blocking them,if they are free to flow air, they help, the problem is that keeping the hole clear is a bit more difficult than you might think if you live in an area with dirt roads or (MUD DOBBER WASPS)
    when I had that style transmission pan I had to put the car up on the lift about once a week and power wash out the tubes because I drive on a few dirt roads, regularly, and on a car that has the oil pan on the transmission less than 5" off the pavement the holes tend to fill with crud fairly fast, I eventually swapped to the cast aluminum pan with external ribs that increased the surface area as it was stiffer, leaked less, at the gasket mating surface and was less maintenance.
    [​IMG]
    READ THIS THREAD BELOW ITS GOT MORE GOOD INFO

    viewtopic.php?f=57&t=176

    viewtopic.php?f=71&t=4909

    http://www.tciauto.com/tc/cooler-fittings

    http://www.transmissioncoolers.us/Merch ... Code=guide

    http://www.transmissioncoolers.us/Merch ... an-coolers

    viewtopic.php?f=71&t=2817&p=7265#p7265

    viewtopic.php?f=57&t=176&p=8390&hilit=cooler+transmission#p8390

    http://spockboxes.com/TransmissionFluid ... QGZWmdbVug

    http://www.allpar.com/eek/atf.html

    http://www.converter.com/vigilante.htm

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/prm-12318/overview/

    IVE FOUND THE USE OF BOTH A REMOTE MOUNTED, FAN EQUIPED TRANS COOLER AND
    THE TALL CAST ALUMINUM TRANSMISSION PAN THAT ADDS A FEW QUART CAPACITY, WITH ITS RIBBED PAN SURFACE THAT ALLOWS HEAT TO DISSIPATE EFFICIENTLY
    (IF YOUVE GOT THE REQUIRED CLEARANCE HELPS)
    BUT ITS ADDING A DECENT , ELECTRIC FAN EQUIPPED TRANS COOLER THAT KEY, TO KEEPING THE FLUID TEMPS UNDER 180F for LONG TERM DURABILITY
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    you can,t generally see a extended capacity transmission pan so having a chrome plated one that won,t dissipate heat well makes little sense, and the stamped steel ones tend to flex and leak far more easily than the cast aluminum ones with the ribs do
    I removed my (spare tire) and installed a rather large trans cooler with a powered fan .in its place along with a 2 quart aluminum trans pan adding a bit more capacity, this deeper oil pans only about 1.5" deeper than stock but it requires you to think about the reduced ground clearance because a c4 corvette trans pan has already minimal clearance to the road surface, with two adults in the car, making trans oil pan to road surface rather close to the ground


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    one of the first things I noticed when I installed a 8 quart baffled oil pan (further modified with extended sump) and a transmission and oil cooler on my car was the very noticeable drop in engine temps, in fact the engine had a hard time getting the oil temps up to 215F which is required to burn off moisture in the oil that gets into the engine if it sits for days in Florida, the cure was installing a 190f t-stat and a bye-pass/return on the oil cooler, that bye-passed the cooler with about 90% of the oil flow routed to the cooler until the oil got hot.
    if you want to keep the temp from making wide swings as the car runs..
    there are 190F-195F t-stats
    http://www.ecklers.com/corvette-thermos ... -1991.html
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    http://www.ecklers.com/corvette-low-tem ... -1995.html

    and optional sensors you can use to turn on the fans at lower temps like 195f-200f


    http://www.carid.com/dorman/radiator-fan-assembly.html

    https://axleaddict.com/auto-repair/Toyota-Camry-5SFE-ATF-Transmission-Fluid-Change
    [​IMG]
    the tubes with air flow cooling holes look like a good idea but in the real world they plug up with mud or leak most of the time, get the ribbed aluminum pan and save yourself the grief
    # Small compact cars, No towing Coolers with GVW ratings of 10,000 to 16,000 lbs.

    Mid-size cars, Light towing
    # Coolers with GVW ratings of 14,000 to 18,000 lbs.

    Mid-size trucks & full size cars
    Towing up to 5,000 lbs.
    # Coolers with GVW ratings of 18,000 to 24,000 lbs.
    Pickup Trucks, SUV's
    # Towing up to 7,500 lbs. Coolers with GVW ratings of 22,000 to 26,000 lbs.

    HD Trucks, Motor homes
    Towing up to 10,000 lbs.
    # Coolers with GVW ratings of 22,000 to 30,000 lbs.

    Super Duty trucks
    Large Motor homes
    # Coolers with GVW ratings of 28,000 lbs. and UP

    http://www.transmissioncoolers.us/Merch ... an-coolers

    those aluminum finned tube coolers work, are reasonably cheap, very durable ,but a bit restrictive

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-41205/overview/
    [​IMG]

    but they don,t cool trans fluid or oil no where near as efficiently/fast as the larger fan equipped coolers with the AN#8 line size
    and in either case finding a place to mount any cooler where you can keep it out of sight and still easily access fresh outside air flow,
    is usually a problem for most people

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-15850
    [​IMG]

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-15950
    [​IMG]

    they work ok at first, but make speed bumps and some driveway entrances a problem and it rarely takes long for crud to plug the tubes and then they are nearly useless, one good mud puddle splash of mud,and your efficiency drops off, a couple and your clogged, I think your best solution will be a electric fan equipped trans cooler, if you've got only paved roads with no speed bumps and your willing to pressure clean frequently you might be ok, at least until the first tall manhole cover rips it clear off.. look under your corvette now with two people in it, I doubt you'll see 4" clearance under the trans pan, make it 1.5"-2" lower and you've got a huge potential problem, save those pans for trucks with more clearance

    your best off installing a transmission fluid cooler of significant size to cool the trans under high stress/high heat load conditions,that has a separate electric fan and a thermostatically controlled switch that routes coolant thru the aux cooler once it reaches 180F, so it can,t get any hotter
    if you have a performance car with a high stall speed converter, you might want to be discussing the installation of a remote mounted trans fluid cooler on your car, now it might not be mandatory but its always a good idea on a car that has a high stall speed converter as they generate a good deal more fluid heat than a stock transmission.


    heres the cooler I installed on my corvette, It was the most efficient one I found that would fit at the time I looked, but it has AN#6 lines, it works just fine but if I had the chance ID select a slightly smaller and thicker cooler with larger line size , when I measured the corvette for the trans cooler I carefully measured the available space I intended to use and selected the largest most efficient trans fluid cooler that would fit in that space but forgot about the room that was required to route the trans fluid lines and fittings , making installing it in its intended location a true P.I.T.A. so I wound up mounting it where my spare tire goes normally in the rear of the car, (NEW GUY STUPID MISTAKE), I,m pointing out so you might avoid that little flaw in your plans should you choose to install a trans cooler

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRM-12318/
    [​IMG]

    BUT having learned a good deal, since that time, if I had to do it over I would go with a slightly smaller size cooler with larger AN#8 lines if I was doing it today

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-15800/overview/
    [​IMG]

    http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merch ... ct_Count=5

    http://www.ws6transam.org/transcooler.html

    http://www.carid.com/dorman/radiator-fan-assembly.html

    mines mounted where the spare tire is usually
    ..more info in link


    viewtopic.php?f=57&t=176

    [​IMG]
    keep in mind automatic transmissions tend to add a significant amount of heat to radiators that use the lower section to cool the transmission, adding a large efficient trans fluid cooler to the car can also significantly reduce the heat loads on the radiator

    many guys don,t realize that adding an oil and/or a transmission fluid cooler, with its own fan and radiator that allows those liquids to be cooled separately, to your engine and drive train, significantly reduces the heat load on the radiator, and generally allows the engine temps to decline noticeably. in fact just adding a high volume oil pan and a transmission cooler can drop your engine coolant temps 20F-30F in many cases
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    remote mounted oil filters can be used along with an oil cooler to to increase transmission cooler efficiency, and the remote filter and cooler used on a transmission also tends to increase fluid capacity ,and as a result the systems cooling efficiency as the longer the fluid remains in transit outside the trans dissipating its absorbed heat, the use of a auxiliary fan equipped fluid cooler on a performance transmission with a high stall speed converter tends to significantly increase its potential durability.
    [​IMG]
    a rather common issue with adding oil coolers, is that many of the coolers available can significantly restrict fluid flow because of the small restrictive internal cross section of the internal tubing, AN #6 and 3/8" tube coolers can be quite restrictive, the AN#8 are better but DUAL AN#8 coolers and AN#10 lines generally work the best, and there's also frequently limited space to position a cooler in the outside cool air flow mandating a powered fans.
    the solution to both issues can and frequently does require use of two different oil coolers but placed in series this can further increase flow restrictions, the solution is in use of larger internal cross sectional area,transfer lines and mounting the twin coolers in parallel thus doubling the effective cross sectional area reducing the flow restriction the cooler potentially could produce if used in series

    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-part ... olers2.htm
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2019 at 2:57 PM
  2. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    Re: derale trans cool pans

    "Did you see a noticable drop in temp with the derale pan? "

    at first it dropped temps about 15 degrees, after a couple weeks temps were back to orriginal levels, I flushed out the tubes with a high pressure car wash wand and temps dropped some but not all the way back, I closely inspected the tubes and found they were partly blocked even after repeated cleaning, so I pulled the pan , added an aluminum ribbed pan that held about a qt more than stock and installed the trans cooler, its been fine since.
    btw at first I had a dual trans and oil cooler ,(like below) but I quickly found that I needed a transmission cooler but not an addition too the factory oil cooler
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    BTW HERES AN IMPORTANT TIP, IF YOUR INSTALLING A REMOTE OIL COOLER, IT is really common for guys to use lines that are far too small, that restrict flow oil flow or select a transmission or oil cooler that has to small of internal passages, shop carefully you want a MINIMUM of 1/2, or AN8 line size and 5/8" or AN10 is BETTER.
    many guys don,t realize that adding an oil and/or a transmission fluid cooler, with its own fan and radiator that allows those liquids to be cooled separately, to your engine and drive train, significantly reduces the heat load on the radiator, and generally allows the engine temps to decline noticeably. in fact just adding a high volume oil pan and a transmission cooler can drop your engine coolant temps 20F-30F in many cases
    [​IMG]
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRM-13311/

    [​IMG]

    http://www.campbellenterprises.com/...sion-pans/aluminum-deep-transmission-pans.htm

    http://www.yourcovers.com/newindex2.htm


    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...electing-a-torque-converter-stall-speed.1715/

    viewtopic.php?f=57&t=176&p=210&hilit=trans+fluid#p210

    http://www.partshp.com/Pans.htm

    http://www.transmission-specialties.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=98

    http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=400306+304252+115&autoview=sku


    https://axleaddict.com/auto-repair/Toyota-Camry-5SFE-ATF-Transmission-Fluid-Change

    http://www.stylintrucks.com/parts.aspx?partfamilyid=5955
    Common aircraft hose dash sizes are:

    -2 Smallest hose size. Used as an instrument gage line
    -3 Also used as an instrument gage line
    -4 Common hydraulic line. Some smaller fuel line
    -6 Common size for fuel delivery lines
    -8 Fuel delivery and oil cooler lines
    -10 Larger aircraft, oil and fuel
    -12 Larger aircraft, oil and fuel
    -16 Larger aircraft, oil and fuel

    The inside diameter of each hose and fitting dash size is found in size charts. A common mistake is to think all hose of the same dash size has the same inside diameter. There not

    A common mistake is to think that all fittings of the same dash size have the same inside diameter. They do not.

    A common mistake is to think that a straight -6 fitting and a 90 -6 fitting of used on the same hose should both have the same inside diameter. They do not. A hose with a straight fitting on one end and an angle fitting on the other end will have different inside diameters.

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    Im many cases adding a deeper transmission pan that adds two or more quarts will lower the average transmission temp. at least 15 degrees, while its certainly not as effective as a trans cooler with an electric fan, but far better than nothing at all!, and you don,t need to run coolant lines, just be aware that if theres limited ground clearance under the car, a deeper trans pan may be a problem when speed bumps and steep driveway access is encountered

    keep in mind you can install a heat controlled valve that routes cool trans or engine oil back to the engine or transmission but one either fluid heats up it routes the hot fluid thru the cooler
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    http://shop.perma-cool.com/1073-Oil-The ... s-1073.htm

    http://shop.perma-cool.com/media/300013 rev5.pdf
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2018
  3. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    Re: derale trans cool pans

    Ive already sold the dual set up,......the dual set up was fine for cooling the oil (run thru the smaller side of the cooler)\
    (probably a little too effective in fact as it was hard getting up to the minimum 215F)
    and it worked "ok" on the transmission fluid, (run thru the 4 pass side) but it was not as effective as I hoped it would be,as under hard accelleration the trans temps breifly peaked higher than I wanted) so I swapped, to the larger single use 6 pass unit. for the transmission fluid. and everything appears to be better, as the trans fluid temps stay more consistant.
    keep in mind high trans fluid temps always lower the transmission life expectancy, especially if your the average guy who beats on the trans and engine occasionally.
    I think the main reason most guys don,t have an aux trans cooler is that they don,t have a good accurate trans fluid temp gauge in the car and have no idea how high the trans fluid temps get under hard accelleration, or understand what those temps do to transmissions relieability

    I'm forced to point out the oil cooler or trans fluid transfer line internal cross sectional area has a potential effect on flow resistance and efficiency,
    if you select 1/2" or AN#8 lines they are large enough in cross sectional area too make the transfer line size and length basically non-restrictive.
    Id also suggest selecting the longer length, dual oil filters mounted vertically in a rather easy to access area of your choice making replacement easy and less likely to be a messy process.
    the longer length oil filters, pleated filtration medium, provide much greater surface area for filtration reducing the flow restriction.

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ubing-fuel-lines-and-flaring.1030/#post-35905

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ion-remote-filter-flow-rate.14621/#post-78235

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/thoughts-on-cooling.149/#post-70002

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/transmission-over-temp.12832/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...il-cooler-increases-durability.176/#post-3620

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...il-cooler-increases-durability.176/#post-3620

    [​IMG]

    viewtopic.php?f=57&t=176

    YOULL NEED A TRANS FLUID TEMP GAUGE


    http://jeepin.com/features/tranny_temp_gauge

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HDA-275/?rtype=10

    [​IMG]

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AAF-A ... /?rtype=10
    [​IMG]


    TRANSMISSION LINE PRESSURE
    http://www.tciauto.com/tc/trans-line-pressure/

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2018
  4. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    yes its very much worth the cost/effort, adding a deep pan dropped my trans oil temp 10-12 degrees.. while that may not sound like much it potentially increases trans life significantly, 30% or more and YES it sticks down an additional 1.5" so road pan clearance on a corvette becomes enought less that speed bumps could potentially be a problem
    [​IMG]
    http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=2146&prmenbr=361
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    http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=3196&prmenbr=361
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    http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=3510&prmenbr=361

    BTW you may find freeze plugs that look like this on blocks and cylinder heads, especially from engine rebuilder machine shops, the "exterior outside BUTTONs are made from a very special low melt metal like bismuth thats specifically designed too melt and distort if the blocks coolant temp reaches about 250-260F indicating and proving beyond question that you over heated the engine and voided your warranty
    http://www.silver-seal.com/category/shop.1_cylinder_head_rebuilding.2_heat_tabs/
    http://www.engineheattabs.com/products
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    btw torque converters are frequently painted with a very special paint that changes color at a specific temperature for the exact same reason, proof you voided the warranty and failed to run the transmission fluid thats supposed to act as a lubricant and coolant within the designed temperature range, they did not select the pink or purple because they like the color, its done to reduce warranty cost issues , if you over heat the converter its waranty is void
    [​IMG]
    https://www.paintwithpearl.com/shop-custom-paint/temperature-changing-paint/

    https://www.paintwithpearl.com/shop-custom-paint/temperature-changing-paint/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...sion-and-oil-cooler-increases-durability.176/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...n-cooler-info-and-derale-trans-cool-pans.662/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ans-cooler-on-a-c4-corvette.10514/#post-44478

    maybe its because I live where theres lots of dirt roads, or mud dauber wasps ,but every time I put a vette up on the lift with one of those oil pans with the tubes thru the oil pan sump, those tubes are packed solid with mud
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2017
  5. SkidZ

    SkidZ Member

    Is there a trans fluid "pickup" that would need an extension when going to a deeper pan?
     
  6. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    that would seem to be a very logical approach, but it doesn,t seem to be necessary or mandatory as no supplier of the deeper transmission pans Ive order those deep pans from even suggests you need one and if there was a few buck$ to be made selling you one someone would sure be doing it at a premium.
    just to make sure IM not giving out bad info, I called two large transmission shops selling those deeper trans pans, both shops confirmed a deeper pick-up was not needed or usually available, as the fluid level remains well above the pickup when the transmission fluid dip stick reads normal levels
    I found these (filter extension spacers bellow) at summit racing and called those transmission guys back , pointing out they were for sale, both transmission pan suppliers pointed out that there were internal post supports designed for filter support at the stock depth, and lowering the filter would require cutting the support posts, they re -confirmed its not necessary.
    IM inclined to aggree as IVE used the aluminum ribbed 2 qt oil pans with a stock filter and an additional oil cooler with ZERO problems for many years on several different cars making over 450hp or more!
    I called a couple buddies, and discussed this as its an interesting question, not one of my freinds has ever used a spacer on the filter but most use the slightly deeper 2 qt additional capacity aluminum oil pans on the transmissions and an oil cooler for thier transmissions, again no problems reported
    http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch ... =%2D156437
     
  7. SkidZ

    SkidZ Member

    Thanks. I've got a deep pan sitting on a shelf, but I wasn't sure about the pickup. If I remember correctly, I've seen a pickup extension at Summit, but it doesn't sound like I need one.
     
  8. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    routing transmission cooler lines, should be thought thru carefully so engine exhaust or vibration won,t damage the lines, a restriction to trans fluid or oil flow will generally be the part of the connecting lines with the smallest cross sectional area, if you look at most automotive oil or transmission coolers they have AN#6 (3/8")or AN#8 (1/2")connections, so lines significantly larger won,t do much for increasing flow rates
    one factor thats frequently over looked is the oil feed and return line internal size and line heat rating,THINK IT THRU, now it should be obvious that fittings tend to have smaller more restrictive holes thru them than the hose internal dimensions of the fittings used with that hose, a fitting designed for 3/8" hose wont allow full 3/8"hose or component oil flow rates, AN-6 is normally considered about equal to 3/8" but thats doesn,t tend to be true, AN-8 size fittings are usually used to get decent flow in a 3/8" oil cooler , if your oil cooler has 3/8" internal passages youll want an AN#8 line size too insure the MINIMUM 3/8" internal passage size is maintained , and you really NEED a full 1/2" or AN#10 size fittings and internal fluid transmission cooler lines to a fan cooled trans fluid cooler rated at at least a 24000 lb vehicle weight for race /performance use, and not restricted by use of the internal passage size of AN#6 fittings which are at best minimal and only delay the heat build-up related problems.

    I don,t remember, where I purchased most of the oil/trans fluid coolers Ive used ,
    but I've purchased and installed several oil and trans fluid coolers
    over the decades, almost all were used 1/2" or an#8 connections and were purchased from summit or jegs
    as always read carefully,
    and measure accurately, remembering you must be leaving room for the hot oil or trans fluid hose and connections
    and access to get the cooler in and mounted and connections made too it!
    you would certainly not be the first or last guy to buy a cooler that will not fit in the space you though it would,
    due to the connections and hoses required or forgetting about the thickness or lack of easy access.
    and
    yes adding an auxiliary electrical fan cooled,
    oil cooler and or trans fluid cooler,
    does drop your engines operational temps and in the case of transmissions,
    a trans fluid cooler,
    and reduces the heat load on the existing radiator.
    btw, adding a few accurate dash gauges ,
    to monitor the fluid temps certainly won,t hurt either.

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...flow-rates-and-heat-transfer.9880/#post-64431

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ps-and-infrared-thermometers.4974/#post-15425

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/digital-dash-swap-questions.3399/#post-26865

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-and-wiring-in-gauges-and-gauge-sources.1469/


    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ans-cooler-on-a-c4-corvette.10514/#post-44478

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-15820

    https://www.summitracing.com/search?PageSize=100&SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=oil cooler with fan

    https://www.jegs.com/i/Derale/259/15850/10002/-1

    https://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/sto...&submodel=&engine=&Nrpp=&No=&persistYmm=false

    Last edited: A moment ago

    viewtopic.php?f=45&t=307&p=372&hilit=trans+cooler#p372

    http://spockboxes.com/TransmissionFluid ... QGZWmdbVug

    http://www.allpar.com/eek/atf.html

    READ THIS THREAD BELOW ITS GOT MORE GOOD INFO

    viewtopic.php?f=57&t=176

    http://www.tciauto.com/Products/TechInf ... pacity.asp

    lines should be as large as the connection fittings will allow (generally NPT 3/8", but ideally AN#10,)
    and routed so they won,t get burnt, or snagged easily
    remember your goal is to provide a steady flow of transmission fluid at about 170F to the transmission, if you run the trans fluid thru the cooler then thru the radiator it will get no cooler than the engine coolant temp which usually runs in the 190f-220f range in most cars, adding a transmission fluid filter is a good idea if you race the car or regularly subject it to hard use.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp ... _-10720525

    http://www.carcraft.com/howto/transmiss ... index.html

    http://www.grandprix.net/upgrades/cooler.html

    http://www.derale.com/clientdocs/1_125_78_13950.pdf

    http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/rac ... nstall.htm

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DER-15800/?rtype=10

    http://www.tciauto.com/Products/TechInf ... _donts.asp

    [​IMG]

    if the lines on the cooler look like this (below)
    [​IMG]

    coolers with aux fans tend to be far more effective
    [​IMG]

    you generally feed the fluid in the bottom and out the top line connection to prevent air trapped in the lines
    naturally youll want to route all lines as far from headers as you can to prevent burns on the lines


    Cooler Fittings
    General Motors Ford Chrysler

    GM Transmission Cooler Fittings


    Powerglide - OEM
    Fitting Location Thread Size Flow Direction
    Upper â…›" Pipe Return/in
    Lower â…›" Pipe Cooler feed/out


    Powerglide - Dedenbear
    Fitting Location Thread Size Flow Direction
    Upper ¼" Pipe Return/in
    Lower ¼" Pipe Cooler feed/out


    TH200C Metric, 2004R
    Fitting Location Thread Size Flow Direction
    Upper ¼" Pipe Cooler feed/out
    Lower ¼" Pipe Return/in


    TH350, TH250
    Fitting Location Thread Size Flow Direction
    Upper ¼" Pipe Return/in
    Lower ¼" Pipe Cooler feed/out


    TH400
    Fitting Location Thread Size Flow Direction
    Upper ¼" Pipe Return/in
    Lower ¼" Pipe Cooler feed/out


    700R4/4L60/4L60E/4L65E
    Fitting Location Thread Size Flow Direction
    Upper ¼" Pipe Return/in
    Lower ¼" Pipe Cooler feed/out


    4L80E (1991-1996)
    Fitting Location Thread Size Flow Direction
    Upper ¼" Pipe Return/in
    Lower ¼" Pipe Cooler feed/out


    4L80E/4L85E (1997 & later)
    Fitting Location Thread Size Flow Direction
    Rear ¼" Pipe Return/in
    Front ¼" Pipe Cooler feed/out


    Ford Transmission Cooler Fittings

    C3, C4, C5, C6
    Fitting Location Thread Size Thread Size Flow Direction
    Front ¼" Pipe Cooler feed/out
    Rear ¼" Pipe Return/in


    AOD
    Fitting Location Thread Size Flow Direction
    Upper ¼" Pipe Cooler feed/out
    Lower ¼" Pipe Return/in


    AODE/4R70W
    Fitting Location Thread Size Flow Direction
    Upper ¼" Pipe Return/in
    Lower ¼" Pipe Cooler feed/out


    E4OD/4R100
    Fitting Location Thread Size Flow Direction
    Front ¼" Pipe Cooler feed/out
    Rear ¼" Pipe Return/in


    Chrysler Transmission Cooler Fittings
    All Torqueflite
    Fitting Location Thread Size Flow Direction
    Front â…›" Pipe Cooler feed/out
    Rear â…›" Pipe Return/in



    LOOK THIS OVER
    http://www.transmissioncenter.org/Auxil ... _Where.htm

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2019
  9. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    mounting a transmission cooler
    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...pring-cooling-via-engine-oil.6491/#post-56753

    the first mistake many guys make when installing a transmission cooler is buying one before measuring the location they intend to install it at for clearance and the second common mistake is buying one that's either too small to effectively remove heat fast enough to keep the transmission fluid at the ideal 170F -175F range, or too large to install in the intended location.
    one factor thats frequently over looked is the oil feed and return line internal size and line heat rating,THINK IT THRU, now it should be obvious that fittings tend to have smaller more restrictive holes thru them than the hose internal dimensions of the fittings used with that hose, a fitting designed for 3/8" hose wont allow full 3/8"hose or component oil flow rates, AN-6 is normally considered about equal to 3/8" but thats doesn,t tend to be true, AN-8 size fittings are usually used to get decent flow in a 3/8" oil cooler , if your oil cooler has 3/8" internal passages youll want an AN#8 line size to insure the MINIMUM 3/8" internal passage size is maintained and not restricted by use of the internal passage size of AN#6 fittings
    I would strongly suggest you never consider use of fuel line and AN type fitting for use as transmission fluid transfer lines even if a transmission fluid cooler is used,
    if you bring the current fittings that fit the transmission to a local hydraulic supply shop along with the exact length of the lines you need and explain what your trying to do , they can fabricate the correct, high pressure and high heat tolerant, transmission fluid lines to your exact specifications for VERY REASONABLE COST, thus preventing what might otherwise become a potential weak link.
    common rubber fuel line will NEVER hold up under the heat and pressure of a transmission fluid transfer line ,long term.
    most rubber fuel line , even FUEL INJECTION LINE is rated to work at UNDER 200 psi and UNDER 250 F, your typical transmission fluid will occasionally exceed 250F and commonly run in the 160F-210F temp range even with a trans fluid cooler
    http://www.novaflex.com/productcart/pc/features_pdf/mjarine Fuel Hose2.pdf

    http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6113/Barricade_Training_Final.pdf

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/flex-fuel-lines.4381/#post-14833

    hydraulic line is usually rated OVER 2500 psi and up to 300F temps


    RELATED

    http://www.discounthydraulichose.com/1_2_Custom_Hydraulic_Hoses_s/335.htm

    http://www.discounthydraulichose.com/Hydraulic_Hose_s/84.htm

    http://www.discounthydraulichose.co....htm?Click=2&gclid=COWnvIjq9ckCFVQ2aQoddYEF_g

    http://www.parker.com/literature/Hose Products Division/Catalog 4400 PDF Files/Master_Table_of_Contents.pdf

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    its bound to be really a P.I.T.A. to find the trans cooler you bought won,t fit or it can,t cool the fluid sufficiently, so do some measuring and research on the flow and cooling capacity of the components you select.
    now it should be obvious that a tans cooler with a built in fan will generally cool more efficiently than a simple finned heat transfer unit because the fan can force a far greater volume of air over and thru the fins to absorb and transfer heat to the surrounding air.
    the next problem many guys seem to run into is line size, line routing and fittings, for some reason theres a tendency among some guys to always want to install the trans cooler in front of the radiator , while this places it in a good area to be exposed to cool air in most applications the hot air that flows behind the cooler is now expected to cool the radiator, which it obviously can,t do as efficiently as the previous cool air before the trans cooler installation, so your in effect curing one problem by causing a slightly different problem.
    its best to locate a trans cooler and its lines and t-stat where it can get its own dedicated supply of cool air for its electric fan,but just as obviously theres limitations in most cars where you can install a cooler due to clearance issues.
    on many cars theres room either near the trunk or only near the radiator, so your choices are limited, unless you want to get creative and fabricate a custom trunk floor, duct work or similar custom location , if that's the case expanded or perforated aluminum brackets or protective shield may be a good option
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    http://www.onlinemetals.com/act_productsearch.cfm
    related linked info
    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-part ... olers2.htm

    http://www.grandprix.net/upgrades/cooler.html

    http://www.bulkpart.com/transmission-cooler.html

    http://www.duccutters.com/ConvertionCha ... bzyv5ytbP1

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1280&p=18703&hilit=accumulator#p18703

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4537&p=12073#p12073

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3144&p=16458&hilit=remote+filter#p16458

    http://www.anplumbing.com/Adapters/Steel-13.html

    viewtopic.php?f=71&t=4910

    http://jeepin.com/features/trannycooler

    http://www.transmissioncoolers.us/Merch ... Code=guide
    if you have the room there that might be a good option, but remember the size and air flow rates have a huge effect on how effective the trans fluid or oil cooler will be and just (HAVING ONE) doesn,t cure the heat issue, its got to be large enough to effectively transfer the heat to the air flow and be effective at reducing heat, once both the engine and transmission temps are up to operational range, and in many cases that takes a fairly large cooler with an effective fan.


    as an example I helped a guy I know ANDY who has a 67 chevy pick-up truck with a 496 BBC engine and TH400 transmission and a 3.54:1 rear gears, too, get his oil cooler working correctly.
    because his trucks basically a weekend toy used mostly as a semi race, drag car,and local street hero, that runs mid 11 seconds in the 1/4 when its not breaking drive train components. he found he needed a trans cooler.
    He only admitted that,after he burned up his th400 trans clutches , so he installed this oil cooler, at first it barely helped
    [​IMG]
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/prm-1310/overview/
    not wanting to waste that oil coolers capacity ANDY, bought this cooler and plumbed it in serious , both were mounted under the pick-up truck bed , and together they dropped the trans fluid temps during normal operation to about 190F which was easily 25 degrees lower than the previous fluid temps
    [​IMG]
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/prm-1311/overview/
    never one to give up,ANDY finally, pulled one of those two coolers and replaced the smaller one with a larger cooler with a fan,and left the larger non-fan equipped cooler plumbed in series under the truck bed, and wired the fan on the new larger cooler to work as soon as the ignition was powered up, this proved to be effective and last time I saw the truck he stated it cured his trans fluid over heating issues.
    not wanting to waste the smaller cooler he moved that to the frame area and plumbed it to use as an engine oil cooler, he stated it helped drop oil temps at least 15F so he was pleased with both upgrades

    [​IMG]
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/prm-13182

    If I did it again Id select this trans cooler (pictured below) as the larger line size would help reduce flow restriction, its smaller width would make it easier to install,
    THATS IMPORTANT!, MEASURE VERY CAREFULLY BEFORE ORDERING
    I know several people that ordered trans coolers and found they would not fit into the originally intended location because they failed to correctly measure the intended location space, in ALL three dimensions,and over the whole space, before ordering , I know I failed to measure carefully so I was forced to place it where the spare tires normally mounted

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FLD-DB30901/?rtype=10
    Fluidyne High Performance DB30901 - Fluidyne Oil Cooler with Fan Kits

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2017
  10. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    before you go installing an extra deep transmission or engine oil pan on your car its a really good idea to have someone measure the distance from the cars current oil pan or transmission pan to the pavement WITH YOU AND A FRIEND SITTING IN THE CAR..watch the video before you go spending a great deal of time and money swapping to the deeper oil or transmission pans.
    trust me your not the first nor will you be the last guy to do that without checking only to find out its an expensive mistake.
    adding a transmission cooler and remote located high capacity oil or transmission filter, as a way too cool trans fluid and provide extra volume is frequently a much safer option

    investing in a couple high heat tolerance magnets to place in any transmission oil pan certainly won,t hurt durability either
    proper magnets trap metallic debris
    SmCo Samarium Cobalt Disc Magnets
    http://www.magnet4less.com/
    [​IMG]

    Samarium Cobalt MAGNETS HELP
    http://www.magnet4sale.com/smco-disk-magnet-dia-1x1-4-samarium-cobalt-magnets-608-f-temperature/
    magnets are ceramic and glass hard, don,t try to drill or grind them, as they can shatter
    WATCH VIDEO...and think about all the speed bumps, concrete curbs, high manhole covers ,bits of road trash, and pot holes that your car travels over in a years time.
    Id strongly suggest a 3.5" MINIMUM under the car clearance, between the pavement, headers and other components with you and a friend sitting in the car and a skid plate is certainly not a bad idea.



    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ion-remote-filter-flow-rate.14621/#post-78252

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-spring-cooling-via-engine-oil.6491/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2018
  11. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/60174/10002/-1

    I spent an hour or so helping one of the local guys swap to a 2 quart deeper finned aluminum transmission oil pan,
    on his 4l80e transmission, I spent time yesterday helping him install it to get a better feel for that transmission.
    this would not work on a corvette as its 4.5" deep, but on his 4x4 pick-up with a BBC I helped him design, its worked out well
    he claims that just the deeper oil pan, and extra two quart capacity has reduced the operational temps 5-7 degrees
    not a huge reduction but hes fine as it was running about 170F, now he says its about 165F keep in mind the truck has about 31" diam.
    tires and a 4.11:1 rear gear and it was in the mid 80s around here at the time.
    I suggested an added trans fluid oil cooler but that will wait on finances.
    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/transmission-over-temp.12832/#post-69729
     
  12. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    flushing a transmission
    theres good info but theres a few ways to improve the process.
    many magnets lose their magnetic pull if heated too 200F
    these SPECIAL CERAMIC MAGNETS below won,t
    they are available from several vendors
    proper magnets trap metallic debris

    SmCo Samarium Cobalt Disc Magnets
    http://www.magnet4less.com/
    [​IMG]
    https://www.magnet4sale.com/smco-magnets-dia-3-4x3-16-samarium-cobalt-magnets-608-f-temperature/
    http://www.magnet4less.com/product_...ucts_id=254&osCsid=ckl4nevgdrmireotnegg7jcf36

    http://www.magnet4sale.com/smco-magnets-dia-1x3-8-samarium-cobalt-magnets-608-f-temperature/

    Samarium Cobalt MAGNETS HELP
    http://www.magnet4sale.com/smco-disk-magnet-dia-1x1-4-samarium-cobalt-magnets-608-f-temperature/
    magnets are ceramic and glass hard, don,t try to drill or grind them, as they can shatter
    [​IMG]






    use a threaded barb fitting and 10 feet of clear hose to flush the trans fluid
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2019 at 2:59 PM

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