Vintage 302 chevy.

Discussion in 'Engine Combos and Dynometer Database' started by rjs89ia, Feb 16, 2016.

  1. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

    THERE'S A DAMN GOOD REASON WHY THE 383-406 cubic inch SBC combos are currently far more popular than the older 302-327 SBC engines and that's simply because the cost will be fairly similar but the results will favor the larger displacement combos by a wide margin if you do your home work and build both to their respective full potentials
    and I doubt the cost would be all that much different after either build was completed
    if a 302 can make 1.35 hp and ft lbs of torque per cubic inch you get
    about 408 ft lbs and 408 hp

    if a 383 can make 1.30 hp and ft lbs of torque per cubic inch you get
    about 498 ft lbs and 498 hp

    lets put both those engines in a 3400 lb car and calculate the results assuming 80% at the rear wheels
    http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

    302-408 flywheel hp x .80=327 hp in a 3400 lb car that should give near

    12.71 et at 106.3 MPH

    383-498 flywheel hp x .80=398 hp in a 3400 lb car that should give near
    11.91 et at 113.5 MPH


    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/tbucket-engine-project-dart-shp.3814/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/the-new-215cc-vortec-heads.266/#post-35948

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...vortecs-on-a-400-short-block.4462/#post-17247

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ding-sbc-crate-engine-heads.13041/#post-69348

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...cu-sbc-in-vortec-head-build.12080/#post-57865

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/port-and-runner-math.148/#post-34936

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ed-up-fuelie-heads-for-cheap.2099/#post-50526

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/heads-for-302-sbc.11492/#post-52993

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/precision-measuring-tools.1390/#post-68861

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...sbc-vs-383-sbc-dyno-results.10210/#post-40509
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
    rjs89ia likes this.
  2. rjs89ia

    rjs89ia Active Member

    I've made some progress lately. I have also learned that sonic testing is not as popular as it sounds on the internet. It has only taken me the better part of 2 months to find someone with a tester and I should get those results back friday. By the looks of the machine shop i would agree all those new dart blocks really don't need all that so my block has travelled far and wide to find one. No luck in Vegas if you can believe that.

    Anyways the heads got cleaned up and they pressure checked good. They said the seats still looked good. They needed to bead blast the ports and break the plugs loose in the water temp sensor holes.

    Crane recommended a set of 96886-16 springs for my cam since the recommended spring was to large for my seats. I chose comp cams 10 deg. tool steel retainers 1732-16 vs crane titanium and whatever comp locks the shop uses. I'm looking into a set of ferrea valves possibly f6303 and f6143 I have to bounce these #'s against what the shop found.
     
    Strictly Attitude likes this.
  3. Strictly Attitude

    Strictly Attitude solid fixture here in the forum

    good to see progress
     
  4. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

    each area has machine shops with different tools, experience and unfortunately some machinists have attitude issues
    and don,t seem to think delivering top quality work at reasonable prices and on promised delivery dates are a reasonable expectation.

    related threads
    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/#post-55314

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ting-started-in-the-car-hobby.339/#post-60187

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...y-in-building-a-good-engine.11682/#post-54682

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/precision-measuring-tools.1390/#post-52466

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bare-minimum-tools.11026/#post-51823

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-train-clearances-and-problems.528/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-springs-and-setting-up-the-valve-train.181/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...g-and-installing-connecting-rods-pistons.247/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...tion-of-crank-durring-short-blk-assembly.852/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/maximizing-piston-to-bore-ring-seal.3897/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-parts-and-a-logical-plan.7722/#post-51341

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/parts-prep-cleaning.6255/#post-51146

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...embling-an-engine-correctly.10363/#post-43802

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/machine-shop-sequencing.4460/#post-11720

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/installing-splayed-caps.7267/#post-24528

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...block-cylinder-wall-thickness.976/#post-22976

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/block-prep.125/#post-10122

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...cking-blocks-heads-for-cracks.3363/#post-8862
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  5. rjs89ia

    rjs89ia Active Member

    This is true grumpy. A lot of the problem I had with the tester is that not a lot of people request it around here so most shops dont bother with one. Most places rely on one shop to have one and everyone just farms it out to them. The shop I went to took my block to that other person and the tool ended up being broke and they didnt feel like fixing it. I had to contact another shop and they referred me to a private guy that luckily one of my friends is a close family friend with so I'll make out better that way verses going through the shop.

    I still intend on going through my current shop as choices are limited around here and I can drop in at anytime and monitor progress rather than take it far away to someone I can only talk with electronically. I have very high standards and expectations when it comes to detailed work but in this instance I have to trust the abilities of the shop as I can't boss them around and expect good quality like I can at my job.

    I don't know if this is a good thing but I did turn them on to the tool steel retainers they didnt have any idea when I asked about them so I had to show them what I was talking about. You learn something new everyday.
     
  6. Strictly Attitude

    Strictly Attitude solid fixture here in the forum

    You are not the only one I had no luck finding sonic testing around here
     
  7. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

    I've got about 4 semi decent machine shops in my area (within 40 miles),
    theres more "machine shops" in that 80 mile diameter circle, but from past experience,
    I would not trust many of them to de-grease a block,
    let alone do anything like precision, machine work, after seeing some of their previous work.
    two have the sonic test equipment ,and both can bore & hone and line home blocks,
    one specializes almost exclusively in cylinder head work, and cylinder head repairs

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/#post-55314
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
  8. Strictly Attitude

    Strictly Attitude solid fixture here in the forum

    They all seem to pretty good around me as the track is close so if you don't do good work you won't last long
     
  9. rjs89ia

    rjs89ia Active Member

    The shop I chose seems to do a lot of work and I've seen some good reviews and recommendations for it. I'll just have to learn from my own experience with them and create my own opinion.

    I should have my results back from my sonic test this evening. I talked to my friend and he said it didn't look too bad. Took about 45 mins to check it and $60. He even took it by another machine shop and talked to them about the #1 cylinder and they said it would be around 300 to sleeve, deck and hone. Good thing is they think the rest of the cylinders should clean up with a hone and be able to stay at .030. I'll post the test results later.
     
    Strictly Attitude likes this.
  10. rjs89ia

    rjs89ia Active Member

    Heres the results. #6 doesnt look so well on paper but I took the time to measure everything manually and those numbers I could not duplicate. I kept getting around .200 so I think there may have been something going on with the tool when they started on this hole. Here's the block info; 3858180....327ci... 64-67 year ...2 bolt main Date Code: April 20, 1965. Believe this is a tonawanda block according to research.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017 at 12:19 AM
    Strictly Attitude likes this.
  11. Strictly Attitude

    Strictly Attitude solid fixture here in the forum

    1&3 being the thinnest
     
  12. rjs89ia

    rjs89ia Active Member

    Yes, I hadn't measured there yet was more focused on #6 thrust side before I measured pin sides. Electronic tools are nice but you can't always believe them. In this case this guy is retired so he had to refresh him self on the tool again so I believe some of these numbers may be off. They thought it might take .030 to clean up the water damage in the #1 cylinder so that one will be sleeved for sure.
     
    Strictly Attitude likes this.
  13. rjs89ia

    rjs89ia Active Member

    Been working on removing some of the rust out of the water jackets. Just let it set for 24 hrs and drained and checked it when I got home from work seemed to work alright but filled it back up for another 24. Thankfully its gonna be over 110 here all week so its free heat to keep the block warm. I'll get a picture of the left bank before I fill it for a comparison on how the metal rescue works. 1497921137917.jpg
     
  14. rjs89ia

    rjs89ia Active Member

    [​IMG]
    Here's a comparison of my 492 angle plug head (top) with a 462 (bottom). This I thought was interesting because you could definitely see how much material was removed. I didnt get a picture of the outer row of bolt holes but it looked like close to .100 had been removed.
     
  15. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

    thanks for posting the clear picture of the two different cylinder heads
     
    rjs89ia likes this.
  16. Strictly Attitude

    Strictly Attitude solid fixture here in the forum

    rjs89ia likes this.
  17. rjs89ia

    rjs89ia Active Member

    Heres another. This gives a better look at the unshrouding.
    20170605_162656_20170620062150241.jpg

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2017 at 1:23 PM
  18. Loves302Chevy

    Loves302Chevy "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

    Both of those heads came off the same engine??? They are clearly VERY different.
    Are you planning to re-use them? That 462 head will take a lot of work to make it like
    the 492, but still one is angle plug and the other is straight.
     
  19. rjs89ia

    rjs89ia Active Member

    Nope just a comparison between the two. It would take quite a bit of $$ and work to bring the 462's up to where my 492's are in the terms of machine work and porting. I'm close to the 1000 in parts and labor now. I was thinking about having them flowed but have decided the money is better spent elsewhere.
     
  20. Loves302Chevy

    Loves302Chevy "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

    upload_2017-6-22_12-47-13.png

    I read that you must grind these cooling passages deeper to maintain coolant flow on excessively milled heads.
    Just 1/16" ought to do the job - compensate for the amount of material removed from the deck surface.
     

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