what fly-wheel?

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member

hey grumpy?
Ive built a pre 72 chevy 350 .060 over with a 383 rotating assembly, im sure its externally balanced because the guy sold me a balancer for a 400 but no flywheel, should I use a 400 flywheel in that situation? The rotating assembly is already installed and I cant find the part number card for it so Im at the end of my knowledge. Anything would help, thanks.



when it comes to building an engine correctly with properly matched components it helps to have the total rotating assembly balanced by a trusted machine shop, and use of quality name brand matched components is seldom going to be a mistake!
yes you'll tend to pay a bit more for a matched rotating assembly from someplace like SCAT\ and SFI rated flywheels and damper, but you'll also have a far lower chance of a mis-matched combo or odd imbalance issues or UN-explained parts breakage
yes chances are almost 100% if your rotating assembly came balanced for a 400 counter weight damper that it will require a matching 400 counter weight fly wheel also, they come in 153 and 168 tooth size and its best to buy an SFI certified blow proof flywheel design, used with a lake-wood blow-proof bell housing or similar bell housing if you like having feet!
theres links to the factory part numbers below but get a SFI certified fly wheel
stock cast iron flywheels have a nasty habit of fragmenting at higher rpms if they heat crack, which ALL cast flywheels EVENTUALLY do if run hard and long enough, resulting in large jagged shrapnel thru the floor boards and windshield and everything between occasionally
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IVE GENERALLY SELECTED SOMETHING SIMILAR TO THESE BELOW ON 383/400SBC BUILDS with EXTERNAL BALANCE
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-700185/

or
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RAM-1523/
$_58.JPG


BTW the flat steel "TAN" in this picture, hard plate that is about 1/8" thick, that mounts between the flywheel and bell housing that helps protect the block from being damaged if the clutch or flywheel comes apart or loose at 6000 rpm
yes it cost double what a cast flywheel costs...Id bet youll wish you paid the difference if a cast flywheel fragments and cuts your feet off? and yes 30-35 lbs is about correct for any car weighing 3000 lbs or more

READ THESE
I tend to use mostly scat forged 4340 rotating assembly's
but Ive used the 9000 series cast steel crank assemblies on less stressed engine builds with good results

http://www.scatcrankshafts.com/rotating-assembies/

LOOK FOR THE SFI RATED BILLET FLYWHEELS
http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/clutch-kits/clutch-usage/street-strip?N=4294925559+4294925004&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Default

ZOOM,
HAYS,
MCLEOD ,
CENTERFORCE
, RAM
all have some decent flywheel & clutch products

dampers/balancers
ATI Performance Products
Fluidampr


Trick Flow Specialties




http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ectly-installing-bellhousings.584/#post-21690


viewtopic.php?f=71&t=447

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3900&p=10338&hilit=flywheel#p10338

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=2596&p=6689&hilit=bellhousing#p6689

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=584&p=757&hilit=lakewood#p757
 
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" GRUMPY??
Is my Flywheel scrap?
My Flywheel has two areas that have some checking or slight surface cracks as seen in the pics below. Is this normal? can having it Blanchard ground take care of this or does it look beyond help?"

flydie.jpg


there are 153 (about 12")
and 168 tooth (about 14")
fly wheel,
but in every case the starter must be mounted, on the block with the correct matching bell housing on the block to correctly contact the flywheel SIZE your using

on the plus side , when your working with the Chevy v8 engines SBC and BBC, if you select the correct two piece or one piece rear seal components, many aftermarket manufacturers of flex plates and flywheels to reduce manufacturing costs , build a neutral balance flywheel or flexplate and simply bolt on or weld on a weight to allow the same basic part to work with both potential combos
mcleod_product_pictures_043.jpg

Counter Weight Kit General Motors Flywheel (1A/2C/3C/4C)

Fits Externally Balanced Applications

1986-1999 SBC

1970-1990 BBC

1991-1997 BBC

1970-1980 SBC 383/400

Default SBC Flywheel & Flexplate part numbers

Small Block Chevy Flywheel Part Numbers
Part # DIA. Teeth Comments
3991406 Flywheel, LW Nodular Iron for HD 10.5" Clutch
3991469 14" 168 two-piece seal, internally balanced
3986394 14" 168 400 External balance, two-piece seal
10105832 14" 168 86-later, one-piece rear seal, ext. balance
14088671 12.75" 153 86-later, one piece rear seal, int. balance
14085720 12.75" 153 Lightweight (15 lbs.), nodular iron, two-piece seal, int bal Will work with a clutch diameter of 10.4" only. Crank flange bolt pattern is 3.58". Will work with a clutch diameter of 10.4" OR 11.0". Crank flange bolt pattern is 3.0"
14088646 12.75" 153 86-up, Lightweight (15 lbs.), nodular iron, one-piece rear seal, ext bal
14088648 14" 168 86-up, one-piece rear seal, ext. balance
14088650 12.75" 153 86-up, one-piece rear seal, ext balance Will work with a clutch diameter of 10.4" only. Crank flange bolt pattern is 3.0"
10174482 89-up with six-speed m/t, requires starter (10455709)
Common clutch sizes are: 10.4", 11.0", and 11.85". Some flywheels are drilled for two different clutch patterns.
12.75" are usually 153 tooth and the other larger 14" diam. are 168 tooth flywheel or flex plate designs, the larger 14"/168 tooth designs fit the much stronger 11" clutches.... obviously the 14" can use a larger clutch, but require a larger bell housing that is why some stock bell housings won,t fit the larger fly wheels and of course the starter used must match

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http://www.4speedconversions.com/chevy-bellhousings.html

ccl1.png

ccl2.png

ccl3.png

ccl4.png

ccl5.png

keep in mind any serious performance application is best served with SFI certified billet flywheel,
clutch assembly and a blow proof bell housing
early GM (60s, 70s, 80s) Flywheel and Clutch Info:
The following information is based on GM production combinations, and is by no means complete and thorough. You’ll need to confirm what you actually have in your car, as things change over the years, especially with aftermarket parts, block machining, etc.

2 Flywheel sizes:

  • 153 tooth, 12.75” diameter. Used on 350ci and smaller engines.
  • 168 tooth, 14” diameter. Used on SBC and BBC, 400ci and larger
2 Flywheel weights:

  • Internal Balance; Engine is balanced internally, and the flywheel neutrally balanced. Used on SBC 350ci and less, 427 BBC and less
  • External Balance; Engine is balanced externally, and the flywheel has a counter balance weight. Used on SBC 400ci, and BBC 454 and up.
  • It is possible and common to change an externally balance engine to be an internally balanced engine.
The GM engine blocks are machined to accept 2 starter bolt patterns:

  • Straight across pattern; always for SBC, and always for the 153 tooth flywheel
  • Diagonal pattern; always for SBC 400ci, and all BBC blocks, and for the 168 tooth flywheel.
  • Both patterns; 350ci and less SBC often have both patterns, and can accomodate either flywheel size.
Finding a flywheel to fit your Chevrolet in the mid-Fifties used to be simple: There were only two possible units from 1942-'53. One flywheel (#3705385) covered all 1937-'53 cars and trucks with a 9 1/8-inch clutch disc and a six-bolt mounting pattern; the other (#3705387) covered all 1942-'53 cars and trucks with a 10-inch clutch disc and nine-bolt pattern. Both used 139-tooth ring gears for the starter. After 1953, Chevrolet changed to 12-volt starters, and the number of teeth on the ring gear was changed, but there are still just a few different flywheels used (excluding Hydra-Matic and Powerglide automatics). Some of these flywheels were used on models from the mid-Fifties up into the Eighties. We have included some of the original casting numbers for easy reference.

Flywheel #3704831

• 1954-'55 cars and trucks with 10-inch clutch Flywheel #373919

• 1958-'65 trucks with 13-inch clutch Flywheel #3739423 • 1956-'65 cars and trucks with 10 or 10 1/2-inch clutch and 11 5/8-inch bolt pattern Flywheel #3705409

• 1955-'62 cars and trucks with 10 1/2-inch clutch and 168-tooth ring gear Flywheels #3789730 and #3705410

• 1955-'62 cars and trucks with 11-inch clutch and 168-tooth ring gear Flywheels #3758595, 3714463 and 3789733

• 1955-'71 cars and 1955-'85 Chevy and GMC trucks with 11-inch clutch and 12 5/8-inch bolt pattern and a two-piece rear main seal. (1986 and newer flywheels are different because they used a one-piece rear main seal)
• 1969-'85 Blazer and Sprint
• 1966-'72 Chevelle
• 1966-'81 Corvette
• 1967-'70 Chevy II and Nova
• 1967-'74 Camaro and 1977-'81 Camaro (with Warner transmission)
• 1970-'72 Monte Carlo (except 400-cu.in. two-barrel)
• 1981 Firebird with 305 Chevy engine Flywheel #3971021

• 1964-'73 full-size Chevy cars and 1965-'73 trucks with 10- or 10.4-inch clutch and 153-tooth ring gear
• 1967-'85 Camaro
• 1964-'77 Chevelle
• 1965-'79 Chevy II and Nova
• 1965-'68 Corvette with 327
• 1978-'81 Malibu
• 1978-'79 Monte Carlo Also these other GM models with straight six-cylinder, V-6 or 262/305 V-8 Chevy engine:

• 1973-'75 Apollo
• 1968-'71 Buick Special
• 1972-'76 Ventura
• 1973-'76 Omega
• 1975-'79 Cutlass
• 1970-'76 and 1980-'85 Firebird
• 1965-'72 Tempest
• 1973-'80 Le Mans
• 1966-'71 F-85 Flywheels #3703870 and #3729004
Models with 11-inch clutch and 168-tooth ring gear

• 1969-'74 Blazer/Jimmy
• 1970-'81 Camaro
• 1970-'71 Impala
• 1965-'74 Trucks
• 1970-'75 Chevelle, Monte Carlo
• 1977-'78 Corvette (180 and 185hp)
• 1978-'81 Firebird with 305 engine
• 1978 El Camino
• 1971-'79 Nova
• 1977-'79 Omega and Phoenix with 305 engine Flywheel #3993827

• 1973-'90 Chevy and GMC Truck w/454
• 1970-'74 Chevelle and Corvette w/454
• 1971-'74 El Camino and Sprint w/454 Exceptions to the above listings are these few special flywheels that do not interchange with each other or any of the above:

• 1970-'71 Impala and Monte Carlo with 400-cu.in. two-barrel flywheel does not interchange with any other two-barrel listing
• 1967-'89 truck with 292 engine (different from all other six-cylinders)
• 1969 Corvette with a dual disc clutch
There are 3 clutch sizes:

  • 10.4”; the most common (aka the “10 1/2” clutch)
  • 11”
  • 12”; for truck applications
The 10.4” and 11” clutch can be used on either flywheel, and your choice depends on the clutch pressure plate bolt pattern. Generally, the 11” clutch will only fit on a 168 tooth flywheel, however, aftermarket companies do sell a pressure plate for the 153 tooth flywheel and and 11” disc.

The 153 tooth flywheels generally have a 10.4” clutch.

The 168 tooth flywheel can be ordered to accept either a 10.4” or 11” clutch.

Similarly, you can use a 12” disc with an aftermarket pressure plate on a 168 tooth flywheel. McLeod sells such a package.

2 flywheel types based on rear main seal:

The early GM blocks had a 2 piece rear main seal, and the later models had a 1 piece rear main seal. They flywheels are different for each, and more info is coming on this topic.

Which flywheel diameter is right for me?

Well, that’s mostly dictated by which block you have, and which starter bolt pattern(s) you have. However, it is possible to have the block machined and tapped for the opposite bolt pattern, and/or to purchase an aftermarket mini-starter that will allow either flywheel.

Which clutch size is right for me?

Boy, there’s lots of opinions on this question. Here’s mine. Unless you’re running really high HP/Torque, and just want every last ounce of gripping power, get the 10.4” clutch. Why? The 10.4” is plenty of clutch for most applications, especially street car applications. Your radial tires will spin long before a 10.4” clutch slips. Also, the 10.4” clutch has less rotating mass, which will result in a better shifting transmission (because the addtional centrifical force of the larger disc will keep the input shaft spinning, and the input shaft must slow down in order for a smooth shift). Further, bear in mind that clutch technology has improved dramatically over the years. Even 30 years ago, the 10.4” clutches were used behind the Hemi engines. If Mopar felt that a 10.4” clutch was good enough for them back then, it stands to reason that today’s much improved clutches will work even better.

If you’re running slicks, and a high HP engine, then by all means, the additional gripping power is a good thing.

Small Block Chevy Flexplate Part Numbers
Part # DIA. Teeth Comments
471529 12.75" 153 Two-piece seal blocks, int balance
471578 14" 168 400 ext. bal, two-piece rear seal
471598 14" 168 Two-piece seal blocks, internal balance
10128412 12.75" 153 86-up, one-piece rear seal ext. balance
10128413 14" 168 86-up, one-piece seal, extra thick, HD, ext bal
10128414 14" 168 86-96, one-piece rear seal, ext. balance
14088761 14" 168 89-up 350 HO, one-piece rear seal, ext. bal.
14088765 12.75" 153 86-up, one-piece rear seal, ext. bal.
14088767 14" 168 89-up 350 HO, one-piece rear seal, HD, ext. bal


Flywheel1.jpg

Flywheel2.jpeg


well as Im sure a few of your friends have been sure to mention, you have a choice too make here, you can save a few bucks and reuse the obviously damaged fly wheel knowing full well that theres a significant chance that it will fragment throwing large jagged chunks of shrapnel thru the cars interior at some point.
the surface of the flywheel appears to have little radial cracks: these are a indicator the fly wheel might be prone to coming apart under high rpm stress loads, like a quick shift under load...yeah! I know you know someone who has run a flywheel like that for years with zero problems.......its your feet and its just a mater of time.....
having high velocity chunks of cast steel pass thru your car, with a good chance you'll loose your feet in the process as the shrapnel exits the car, won,t be fun!
or you can upgrade to a billet flywheel and a blow proof steel bell housing and have significantly reduced the chances of getting a nick name like "STUMPY", "TOE-LESS JOE" or "SHORTY"

personally Id suggest investing in a good lakewood blow proof bell housing and SFI billet clutch and flywheel
use of a block plate and a blow proof bell housing ,helps prevent your feet from being cut off if the clutch or flywheel explodes, and
can frequently prevent major damage to an expensive engine block,
and avoid thousands of dollars in machine work cost on a replacement block.
use of SFI certified clutch components significantly reduces the chances of parts failure.

SFI chevy flywheels
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ram-1501

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-700180

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ctf-700120

its a great idea to use the proper GRADE #8 fasteners as they are significantly stronger than the average grade 5 hardware store bolts

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...l-oil-soaked-clutch-dry-out.11603/#post-54020

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lak-15000_w.jpg

ONE REASON I TEND TOO STRESS THE USE OF both A LAKEWOOD BELLHOUSING AND A SFI RATED BILLET STEEL FLYWHEEL, AND A SFI RATED PRESSURE PLATE , is that over the last 45 or so years Ive personally seen the results of at least 6 cases where clutches or flywheels came apart at higher rpms, the results can nearly cut the car in half without a blow proof type bell housing

trust me when I say it gets far more expensive, to repair a car when a blow proof bell housing doesn,t limit the damage
10-03.jpg


and thats not counting the surgery required to repair or amputate ankles or toes etc, as a 10 lb chunk of flywheel coming apart at 6000rpm WILL go through the floor, doors or dash and windshield

read thru these

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance- ... Id=1359671
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READ THESE LINKS

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=584&p=21690&hilit=blow+proof#p21690

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...l-oil-soaked-clutch-dry-out.11603/#post-54020

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=447&p=5542&hilit=proof+lakewood#p5542

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1042&p=1969&hilit=blow+proof#p1969

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/11/lakewood/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/168-or-153-flywheels.3951/#post-10551

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ectly-installing-bellhousings.584/#post-26291

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/a-brief-look-at-clutches.447/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/what-fly-wheel.6124/#post-35034

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...tion-about-throw-out-bearing.6258/#post-19699

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/thrust-bearing-wear.619/#post-10925

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/a-brief-look-at-clutches.447/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...gs-and-correctly-installing-bellhousings.584/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/what-fly-wheel.6124/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/clutch-fork-question.7852/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/pilot-bushing-installation.2596/
 
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How do you guesstimate what the ideal flywheel weight is for a given application? Is there some kind of formula for TQ at launch RPM vs vehicle weight and gearing?

I understand the basic theory (i.e. heavy flywheel = more stored energy, less revs needed to get car moving; light = faster accel/decel, less inertia to help get car rolling). Is it all pretty much just guessing (or some kind of dark arts) from experience or trial and error?

The car in question has a fairly mild-ish 327, maybe in the 375ish HP range (actually I was gonna ask what you guys would guess power output might be), weighing in at about 3,500lbs. 3.70:1 rear, 2.56:1 first (M20)
http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

http://www.csgnetwork.com/automotiveconverters.html

https://www.tciauto.com/racing-calculators

http://www.bgsoflex.com/auto.html

http://www.hayescouplings.com/pdf/HOW TO DETERMINE WHAT SAE FLYWHEEL YOU HAVE.pdf

https://www.summitracing.com/search...ppc-google-_-search-_-general-terms-_-keyword

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...atios-and-when-to-shift-calcs.555/#post-54229

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-calculators-and-basic-math.10705/#post-72061

30-35 lbs is about correct for a 3500 lb car with a mild 327, less weight won,t get the car smoothly launched, and may be a P.I.T.a. on the street
flywheels less than 25 lbs are best used on cars that weight under 3000 lbs, or cars where engine speed rarely drops below about 3300 rpm

https://www.engineersedge.com/mechanics_machines/f...



http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/en...to-add-hp-with-a-lighter-flywheel-why-weight/

http://victorylibrary.com/tech/inertia-c.htm

https://www.mk5cortinaestate.co.uk/calculator4.php
every choice you make is a compromise
heavier flywheels reduce the engines ability to accelerate the car but tend too reduce wear on the bearings and allow the car to accelerate smoothly at lower rpms, if you will almost always keep engine rpms over about 3500 rpm, a lighter 20-25 lb flywheel makes sense, if you frequently run the car in the 1200 rpm-3300 rpm range the slightly heavier flywheel makes driving easier


the car will accelerate more quickly with a lighter flywheel. To put an actual number on this, you need to do a moment of inertia calculation. Let's take a couple of examples, one with your 14 pound flywheel and one with your 40 pound flywheel.

First, you have to calculate the center of mass of the flywheel. For a disc like a flywheel, this is .707 multiplied by the radius. Let's assume the flywheel diameter is 13". Radius is 6.5", so the center of mass will be .707 * 6.5 = 4.59". We will need this in feet, so 4.59" is about 0.38 feet (4.59/12).

Next you have to calculate the Gs of the flywheel, which is just its weight divided by 32.2 ft/sec^2. For the 14 pound flywheel, this is .434 slug-feet, and for the 40 pound flywheel this is 1.242 slug-feet.

Now you can calculate the moment of inertia, which is just the weight in Gs multiplied by the center of mass radius squared. So, for the 14 pound flywheel, the moment of inertia is .434 * .38 * .38, or 0.0626. For the 40 pound flywheel, this calculation is 1.242 * .38 * .38 = 0.179

Finally, to determine how much torque it will take to accelerate each flywheel, we have to decide on an acceleration rate. Let's pick 1000 RPM per second to make it easy. We need to convert this acceleration rate into radians per second squared, so we need to divide by 60, then multiply by 2pi (6.28). So, 1000 RPM per second is the same as 104.6 radians per second squared.

Torque equals Moment of Inertia multiplied by Angular Acceleration. For the 14 pound flywheel, a torque of 104.6 * 0.0626, or 6.5 lb-ft, is required to accelerate the flywheel at 1000 RPM per second. For the 40 pound flywheel, a torque of 104.6 * 0.179, or 18.7 lb-ft, is required for the same acceleration rate.

The engine has to deliver this torque to the flywheel in order to accelerate the car, so that means that the 40 lb flywheel will result in a reduction of 12.2 lb-ft of torque going to the transmission input compared to the 14 lb flywheel.

The morale of the story is use a light flywheel if you can. A heavy flywheel will steal torque from the rest of the drivetrain.
 
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