Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SBC?

Loves302Chevy

"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."
Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SBC? I have access to a Bridgeport if the girdle might need a little trimming. I will be using a flat-tappet camshaft in a 2 bolt main 305 1pc seal block. I was using a windage tray previously, but since the cam & lifters are lubricated mostly by splash, and the reduction of zinc & phosphorus in today's oils, I think it now makes sense not to use it. It will be a daily driver with a decent amount of power, but nothing that would require splayed 4 bolt caps (I have already read thru those links). It seems that it's an easy bolt-on that would let me sleep better at night. Whether the girdle itself does anything to help strengthen the bottom end, the studs it comes with certainly will. Thanks, Mike.
 
Re: Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SB

the correctly installed windage screen ,actually HELPS lubricate the the cam, as it insures the oil flow remains consistent, the cam is lubricated by oil flow from the cam bearings rod and main bearings pressurized oil flow constantly squirting out of the bearing edges and oil draining back to the sump from the upper engines, lifter gallery, "splash oiling" is a mis -conception in a SBC with pressurized oiling , the early flat head fords actually used "SPLASH OILING" and bearings rarely lasted 30K miles between requiring replacement
the answer as to what block you need will of course depend on what you intend to DO- WITH THE COMPLETED engine,yes a common upgrade is to use the stock main caps and ARP main studs can be used but the difference in tension may require the block gets line honed to maintain the correct crank bearing alignment compared to the factory main cap bolts ,and this generally works ok up to the 450-475 hp level, and yes theres stronger billet aftermarket main caps, splayed main caps and main cap girdles that can be used to increase the blocks strength and rigidity, but the aftermarket blocks use thicker castings of a sightly better design making them significantly stronger and a splaid main cap is structurally a stronger design.
Most OEM production SBC blocks are factory rated for under 400 hp use, we all know people that have pushed the limits to 450-500 hp but theres a huge difference, in stress between the malt shop hero who got his car dyno tested at 475 hp who spends 97% of his time cruising around to impress his buddies with the cars lumpy idle, and racing once every few months , and some guys racing a stock car for several 50 lap races at 6500 rpm every Saturday night, in what you can reasonably expect from the main cap durability and main cap stability because stress is CUMULATIVE !
you can get away with amazing amounts of abuse SHORT TERM, that will EVENTUALLY cause major parts , durability issues & failures

Yes there are main cap girdles and individual main cap straps available, but that set of two bolt main cap straps or a main cap girdle used on a O.E.M. block, is a band aid for the comparatively weak, cast main caps and in no way does in compare to the strength youll get from installing billet steel spayed main caps with the proper ARM studs on the O.E.M. block but even then they can,t compare to a DART block that has a significantly stronger and thicker casting from a better high strength alloy

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/installing-splayed-caps.7267/#post-68837

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/installing-splayed-caps.7267/#post-24529

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/which-dart-shp-4-0-or-4-125.3219/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/main-cap-fit-in-block.5945/#post-51651

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...bearing-studs-torque-stretch.9409/#post-34241

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...block-cylinder-wall-thickness.976/#post-33362
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...block-cylinder-wall-thickness.976/#post-22976

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/splayed-main-caps.1014/#post-12226
if you check you'll find that stud girdle use does little or nothing for the individual main cap strength but it does marginally increase main cap stability and block flex.
now the potential difference is probably not worth the expense, in that your generally spending cash that would be better used in the purchase of the stronger aftermarket block casting from a known source like DART.
look through the links and read the sub links
the billet splayed main caps on the aftermarket block is the stronger route, but Id bet 90% of the guys building their first engine think they will save money using the O.E.M. block they already own.....well, until... they add up all the machine work costs and price of parts like aftermarket splayed caps, ARP main studs ,the labor costs from the machine shop, etc. but by that time the machine shop owner is smiling all the way to the bank, and youve just figured out the true cost of that cheaper O.E.M BLOCK
girdle1gh.jpg

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sbcoilh1.jpg

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LubeV8_W_Scraper02.jpg

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there are many oil leakage points(100) in a standard Chevy engine.
16 lifter to push rod points
16 push rod to rocker arm points
32 lifter bores 16 x 2 ends
10 main bearing edges
9 cam bearing edges
16 rod bearing edges
2 distributor shaft leaks
1 distributor shaft to shim above the cam gear(some engines that have an oil pressure feed distributor shaft bearing.)

billetmc.jpg

aftermarket blocks like dart have significantly thicker bore walls, main cap webs, decks, can be ordered with splayed and billet main caps
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=52

a stud girdle will have only a minor effect on the engines bottom end strength, use of ARP main studs and aftermarket 4340 forged steel bodys and connecting rods with ARP rod bolts will provide a good deal more effective strength than the main cap girdle, its the stock connecting rods and rod bolts and the stock 4-5 quart un-baffled oil pan, based lubrication system, and cast crankshaft and limitations on the stock valve train and detonation with crappy octane fuel, thats putting the stock bearings at risk, and I'd bet 90% of lower end failures I've seen are the result of improper lubrication, detonation, or improper clearances on the bearings closely followed by use of stock connecting rods and rod bolts.
I'd put a great deal more time into having the block line honed after installing main cap studs and selecting a 7-8 quart baffled oil pan, and 7/16' rod bolt rods and a balanced forged rotating assembly than in worrying about a main cap stud girdle.
Id bet a FAR greater percentages of races are lost due to lack of engine durability issues,
related to lack of consistent lubrication or cooling or improper clearances
or driver errors than are ever due to having slightly less horsepower than the next guys car.
having a properly set up 7-8 quart baffled oil pan and matching windage screen and checking clearances goes a long way towards increased durability


the better machine shops pin or sleeve the main caps to prevent movement
sleevecap1.jpg

sleevecap2.JPG

if some internal engine oil control components breaking,in engines, theres a reason,
and its frequently related to either inferior materials being used or component design,
not having the operational stress being induced taken into account in the design phase.
or the components not having been ,manufactured or installed correctly.

example
for awhile SBC oil pumps were breaking after the manufacturer,
tried to save some cash by reducing the thickness of the housing casting ,
this was a really stupid change that cost them a great deal, in customer confidence,
and potential future sales are word, of the defective pump, got around quickly
theres some vibration stress on any oil pump, and the manufacturer rapidly found ,
they were forced to revert to the original older design.
trying to save a few cents per pump so they could undercut the cost,
of the pumps of other manufacturers, and gain an advantage,
cost them rather dearly in sales.
as many of you gentlemen know MELLING CHANGED the casting on their standard M55 high volume oil pumps making them weaker and thinner
m55vsm1055t.jpg
M55tom1055at.jpg

sbcpumpgearxa.jpg

m10553vsM10552.jpg


OilPumpBrokeb.jpg

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=623&p=834&hilit=camaro+crossram#p834

http://www.camaro-untoldsecrets.com/art ... ossram.htm

http://www.summitracing.com/search/Prod ... Stud-Kits/

http://hotrodenginetech.com/how-to-inst ... cap-studs/

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=204

https://chevroletperformanceparts.com/catalog/chevrolet-performance-engines

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=3156&p=14918&hilit=caps+walking#p14918

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1168

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=5945

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=341

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=510

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=9816&p=37278&hilit=detonation#p37278

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3519&p=10293&hilit=melling+oil+pump#p10293
 
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Re: Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SB

I agree with Grumpy. A main cap girdle on a 305 sbc Non Race application is a waste.
2-bolt mains plenty adequate.
Main cap Girdles are usefull on Stroker SBF 5.0 style with a Supercharger up to 800-900 Hp.
Anymore takes an aftermarket block like Dart or Ford Motorsport. FM Block good to 2500-3,000 Hp.
 
Re: Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SB

Oh my God, what a brain fart I had. I've been trying so hard to save this engine that for a second I got confused and thought the windage tray was between the crank and cam - stupid me. Probably from looking at the block upside down on the stand.

As I took this thing apart everything looked really bad, but after I washed each part off in my parts washer, they are not as bad as I thought. The surface of Keith Black HYPER pistons is so hard that dragging a razor blade across the skirts easily pulled the grit out. Then I hit them with a green Scotchbrite pad. At this point I have nothing to lose, so I'm going to run the hone in the worst bore to see if there is any chance that the scratches will clean up with a light hone. If so, then I will slap it back together with new rings and bearings. And use the windage tray. You recommend Clevite H, correct?

When the big end of a connecting rod needs reconditioning, in which direction has it grown - in line with the beam or between the bolts? It's not as accurate as the gauge on the Sunnen hone, but with my dial caliper I measure about .001" smaller in the direction of the beam than between the bolts. Mike.
 
Re: Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SB

Loves302Chevy said:
Oh my God, what a brain fart I had. I've been trying so hard to save this engine that for a second I got confused and thought the windage tray was between the crank and cam - stupid me. Probably from looking at the block upside down on the stand.

As I took this thing apart everything looked really bad, but after I washed each part off in my parts washer, they are not as bad as I thought. The surface of Keith Black HYPER pistons is so hard that dragging a razor blade across the skirts easily pulled the grit out. Then I hit them with a green Scotchbrite pad. At this point I have nothing to lose, so I'm going to run the hone in the worst bore to see if there is any chance that the scratches will clean up with a light hone. If so, then I will slap it back together with new rings and bearings. And use the windage tray. You recommend Clevite H, correct?

YES CLEVITTE (H)

When the big end of a connecting rod needs reconditioning, in which direction has it grown - in line with the beam or between the bolts? It's not as accurate as the gauge on the Sunnen hone, but with my dial caliper I measure about .001" smaller in the direction of the beam than between the bolts. Mike.

Ive always ALWAYS vastly preferred and RECOMMENDED throwing USED OEM SBC connecting rods in the nearest DUMPSTER


SCAT rods are so much stronger and by the time you add ARP bolts and get them resized STRONGER AND CHEAPER that its hardly worth the effort to recondition old OEM rods, to spend money on old OEM rods that are only 50% as strong AT BEST!

READING ALL THE WAY THRU THE LINKS AND SUB LINKS WILL PROVE USEFUL
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-2 ... /overview/

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=9955&p=38385&hilit=plastigauge#p38385

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=509&p=28226&hilit=+rings+hone#p28226

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=3897&p=26602&hilit=+rings+hone#p26602

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=976&p=22976&hilit=+rings+hone#p22976

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=509&p=12277&hilit=+rings+hone#p12277

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=125&p=10972&hilit=+rings+hone#p10972

http://www.competitionproducts.com/Main-Girdles/products/1073/
 
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Re: Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SB

Sorry, I forgot to mention that the rods are Lunati LHA1 4340 Street Race 5.7" good for 450 HP @ 7000 rpm. And I will have the machine shop check them. I would not bother with stock rods either. Mike.
 
Re: Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SB

If you try honing out that cylinder yourself Mike try & find a 280-320 Grit hone.
Most parts stores stock & sell hones for ancient cast iron ring non plasma moly faced in 120-180 grit.
Too Rough for modern plasma moly faced piston rings.
Use Kerosine mixed with Red Off Road Diesel Fuel for a honing lubricant.
Use lots of lubrication.
Wash throughal with hot soapy water. Tide laundry detergent works best .
Not the best way to hone cylinders but I have done it in a Jam.
Ring life won't be optimal but get you going again.
 
Re: Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SB

when your done cleaning the motor with soapy hot water pour some atf on a terry cloth and wipe all the cylinders down then hot soapy water again... i use dexron III because thats what i have around usually but im sure all atf has alot of detergent agents in it... when i think a bore is clean i wipe it with atf and the rag always comes back with shit on it. good luck man hope you're back on the road soon.
 
Re: Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SB

Thanks for the advice. I was going to use WD-40. I will try the kerosene and diesel. I have a choice of 2 hones: a JC Whitney dingle ball glazebreaker that I bought many years ago, and a new 3 stone Harbor Freight that does not say what grit the stones are. My guess would be 320. The old rings were Total Seal TS1 - TS1 sets feature ductile iron top rings, Gapless 2nd rings & 3 piece standard tension oil rings. United Engine & Machine - Icon - KB Performance - Silvolite just got back to me and recommended that they use conventional Hastings ductile iron rings with good results. So I will buy the Hastings rings. Total Seal and Hastings both recommend 240grit for cast rings and 320 for moly. I can use the dingle ball first and if it's looking like I can get the scratches out, then I can switch to the 3 stone. I have a powerful 1/2" low speed angle drill that I plan to use so I will not have to move my arms as fast as I can to get the proper crosshatch and keep form bouncing the stones off the main webs as when using a regular drill motor. I will then wipe the bores the best that I can and coat them with ATF, which will keep the bores from rusting until I am ready to bring the block to the machine shop for cam bearings and cleaning. Mike.
 
Re: Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SB

Yes Mke. Use the Dingle Ball Hone. Gives best results for a home builder doing it himself.
Don't Assume or Guess. You will make an ass of yourself.
What my favorite High School AVC Shop teacher taught us.
Let everyone else's Chit blow up not yours.
THE 3 Stone takes practice to learn right. Skill involved.
 
Re: Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SB

The dingle ball hone worked great. Very nice 40 degree crosshatch also. Out in my unheated garage on supposedly the coldest day of this winter, it took 5 hours. I just kept going until the scratches lightened up. With that much honing, I thought that I removed a lot of metal. Instead I damn near wore the stones on the hone out. The Keith Black HYPER pistons call for a piston to wall clearance of .0015-.0020. The machine shop that previously bored & honed the block must have set the clearance on the tight side because the bore is now .001" larger at 3.7665. After pulling the grit out of the piston skirts and scotchbriting them, the lines from the diamond turning are less pronounced, and they measure .001" less (3.763) at the checking point. Which means the P-W clearance will now be .0035 and I also verified it with a feeler gauge - .003 goes and .004 does not. I tried to attach some pics, but they get too magnified in the preview and you can't see anything. Thanks again for all the good advice. Mike.
 
Re: Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SB

Loves302Chevy said:
I tried to attach some pics, but they get too magnified in the preview and you can't see anything. Thanks again for all the good advice. Mike.

Check out the link below. Just page down until you see the Software section,
about 1/2 way down. The software is free and you will be able to resize the
photo or draw on it and make annotations.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5595

 
Re: Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SB

They are from a cheap digital camera, but here are the resized pics:
 

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Re: Will a main girdle fit with the stock oil pan on Gen1 SB

Nice work Mike.
 
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