I had to think back over 47 plus years of hunting and that, reasonably long, time span, of in the field experience,
that has almost always been in Colorado or Wyoming, Idaho, or northern California in steep canyons ,
hunting mule deer and in mostly Colorado or Wyoming, when I could draw the permits for elk!
(keep in mind the terrain you hunt and what you hunt obviously has a huge effect on what you,ll find to be ideal)
so it is also making the choice more difficult, simply because as I gained experience.
I also tended to try out different rifles, mostly because as I gained experience,
I came to realize the characteristics of what I needed or even wanted had changed!
when I was younger all the magazine articles I read were pushing the concept of the necessity,
of having a high velocity, super flat trajectory over almost any other consideration,
so the 270 win , 300 win mag, and the 7mm rem mag were almost always being pushed,
as some how head and shoulders superior too the old and supposedly obsolete 30/06 .
It was hinted rather pointedly that if you showed up in any deer or elk hunting camp west of the Mississippi river, with anything like a 358 win or 35 whelen or saints save us, a 444 marlin, 450 marlin, 458 win, or 45/70,
you were simply flaunting your total ballistic ignorance, and obviously were the type of person that spent most of their days dressed in a flannel jump suit, playing with dust floating in the beams of sun light ,
that managed to leak into your padded cell at the home for the permanently confused!
Now the funny thing was that the guys I was being mentored by acted as if they never read a single magazine, in fact ,
I was flat out told that a Remington slide action in 30/06 was and would always be the ideal rifle.
the fact that my mentors were very well know for filling their elk tags at a much higher rate than the states statistic suggested was normal, year in and year out just seemed confusing to me in my late teens and early 20s.
well to answer my personal selection, its a toss-up between a 340 wby , loaded with 250 grain bullets and a 375 H&H loaded with 270 grain bullets.
when selecting the best rifle and caliber for the application I've always felt the characteristics that held the most weight should be
(1) will the rifle and caliber allow you to effectively kill the game, your hunting, with a shot /projectile capable of passing completely through the game, from ANY REASONABLE angle and range
(2) can the user accurately place shots rapidly from any reasonable field position and range.
(3) recoil levels should not intimidate the user from quickly attaining a field position
(4) total dependability
Ive always asked myself, would this rifle.work if I jump an elk in thick timber at 30-40 yards,
as well as it will if I see the elk of a life time walking over a ridge at 300-350 yards with only seconds to make a shot?
I've tried over a dozen other rifles and they all worked ,
everything from a 257 Roberts to a 458 lott, I came to realize it was not the rifle of the cartridge selected , but the skill and knowledge of the guy using the rifle that mattered far more.
I received a brief e-mail asking why I seem to be promoting the 450 marlin BLR
Im not promoting any caliber or action type, simply pointing out what I see rather frequently, used.
The WEATHERBY Fibermark Stainless BOLT ACTION is available in-
any of the highlighted cartridges will be an excellent option in my opinion but the last two are my favorites
while earlier in the thread,and in other threads, Ive stated Ive used a SAKO 375 H&H carbine hunting thick timber hunting elk.
well thats a good observation
Ive used BOTH rifles and the 375 H&H sako manlicher carbine similar too these pictures
my late hunting partner vastly preferred the 358 win BLR
(mostly Id bet because the 358 win was available when he started hunting elk and the 450 marlin only came out after he passed on)
well Ive watched a great many guys hunt, the thicker timber slopes where ranges tend to be well under 100 yards and you certainly don,t want any game you shot running any distance,
heavy bullets in the 30 caliber and larger in the 180 grain or heavier range work rather well.
and you certainly are unlikely too, get your choice in distance or the games stance or choice of shot angle.
many prefer those larger bore Marlin and browning lever actions, as you can get a very rapid second shot.
two factors come to mind here
(1) few guys I know have ever needed a rapid second shot
(2) even fewer have developed the well practiced skill of rapidly working a bolt action while your in recoil,
from the first shot and not removing the rifle stock off your shoulder.
I find most guys are faster making a follow up shot or at least having that second cartridge re-chambered with a lever action,
and while that might seem to be an advantage, once you have developed the knack of using a bolt gun with out removing it from the shoulder,
while working the bolt, I feel the advantage is negligible if it exists... especially when I rarely see a second shot from either rifle is required.
like I stated, pick what YOUR familiar with and COMFORTABLE useing....your un-likely to make a bad choice.
but I had excellent and consistent results with the 340 wby , loaded with 250 grain bullets and a 375 H&H loaded with 270 grain bullets, and those rifles get grabbed as I head out the door more than any others I've used.
I've yet to see any animal hit in the vitals make it it very far once hit with either of those rifles without a very obvious indication they were mortally hit, and while most (maybe 95%) were shot at under 250 yards,
a VERY few were dropped out in the 400-500 yardage ranges.
now if I drop back to hunting hogs and whitetail deer . the 257 roberts ,
358 win and certainly the 44 mag and 45/70 all get field time, and like I mentioned previously,
the skill and knowledge of the guy using the rifle that mattered far more, that the rifle or caliber used. just a side note
when I first got into hunting elk , I was about 18 years old, and that was back in about 1968, and I was very lucky,
I had several skilled mentors with decades of experience ,that made the trip out to Colorado every year,
these guys were all in their 40s & -50s and 60s at that time ,they had all been hunting for decades,
all but one of those "old geezers' were using a 760 rem slide action or bolt action 30/06 rifles,
(the sporters based on the 1917 Endfield and mod 70 win were revered,) most of them used 180 grain or 220 grain round nose bullets,
these geezers stressed, the importance of learning to having the skill to drop into a sitting position with proper use of a rifle sling and being consistently able to place shots on a 3" orange dot at 100 yards,
they also explained trajectory, and strongly suggested sighting into hit 3.5" high at 100 yards, so range estimation was not extremely critical.
they also suggested learning to shoot skeet, because hunting in the thick timber might require shooting off-hand at closer ranges.
as that was what too a man they had found to be very effective, so on their advise,
I purchased and used a 760 rem on my first three hunts.
( could not locate a 1917 Endfield)
those were exciting times and these guys did a great deal to get me up too speed on learning where to look for elk,
how to find them and how to dress out and care for and transport the meat once the deer and elk we shot, were down.
now I read every hunting article and magazine, I could find at the time ,
if your my age you might remember the 7mm mag and 300 win mag both came out in about 1963,all the magazines were full of articles promoting the
pre 1964 winchester bolt guns and lamenting the crappy new Winchesters, the fairly new remington 700 rifles were heavily advertised.
but at about the same time frame the 340 weatherby in the mark V rifle was being heavily promoted
being young I read everything I could find and became convinced, I really needed to spend about 2 months pay and buy a weatherby 340 mag.
It took me over a year to save up and get one.
now looking back, and thinking about the results, the 340 wby worked and continues to work exceptionally well,
but every deer or elk I shot, with my 30/06 was just as dead, and in either case a single well placed shot was lethal.
the difference was that if I hit an elk with a 30/06 , well mostly they looked like they just were startled and ran, a few steps then fell,
hit in a similar location with the 340,wby few ran, most fell or stood as if dazed then slowly collapsed, few ran, while both were lethal, there was an obvious difference in the initial , reaction to a well placed shot.
over the following decades while watching many dozens of guys kill deer and elk,
it became obvious to me that the rifle and caliber ,the guy carried was far less important that the skill and experience of the guy using it.
especially after watching the older guys, and newer members of the group, use everything from a 257 roberts and 6.5mm swedish mauser to a 45/70 and 458 win,
and even rather less popular calibers, for elk and mule deer, like a 44 mag marlin lever action, and 35 rem.
all worked if the guy using it was a good shot!
the butt stock cartridge sleeve that holds 8-9 cartridges is almost a mandatory accessory like a sling on most rifles in my opinion
[/IMG]
honestly I can count the number of times I've even seen a legal bull elk that looked like it was worth shooting, on public land, at ranges over 300 yards in the last 46 years on a single hand and still have unused fingers.. In my experience a 338 caliber, 250 grain bullet pushed too just under 2800 fps kills anything I've ever used it on.
yes in theory I could gain a bit flatter trajectory and a bit more impact energy by boosting velocity with hotter loads... but I don,t see any benefit!
now I'm not suggesting loading down to lower velocity as a goal,
but if my most accurate load happens to be 50 fps-100 fps slower than the max listed velocity you can find listed in the manuals,
I don,t, miss a minutes sleep worrying about the rifles lethality.
I'd bet he would totally flip out if he knew my back-up rifle was a 20" sako 375H&H carbine that barely brakes 2450 fps with a 270 grain bullet and that both rifles have a long very successful record of dumping elk!
while the rifles might seem a bit too powerful in many peoples opinion
I think most of us tend to select the rifles and calibers we have the most confidence in,
or have had the best results using.
I've never regretted using a synthetic stock/stainless weatherby mark V in 340 weatherby,(similar to these two pictures)
for most of my western hunting
I've used a sako 375 H&H carbine for the thicker timber
they all have their strong and weak features, some guys prefer brunettes some blonds, its all a mater of what best matches your idea of perfection,
I tend to grab the rifle that best matches the terrain and game I intend to hunt , and I've come to prefer and favor the 33-45 calibers personally, but after almost 50 years of hunting big game I've come to realize that the guy holding the tool and his level of experience, and persistence, is by far the most important factor determining the likely success. select about anything with a common deer rifles power level, like a 270 win-308 win and an experienced and knowledgeable and persistent hunter cam make it work rather effectively.
YEAH, A BROWNING blr IN 450 MARLIN
IS DESIGNED TO HANDLE max PRESSURE LEVELS in factory ammo,of about 43,000 psi roughly 50% higher than a 45/70, ,the action on a marlin 450 marlin BLR is front locking like a bolt action , it can safely handle slightly more pressure. a rear locking action on a marlin lever action can,t safely handle , more than about 33000 psi
the marlin is from what Ive read several places designed to handle approximately 32000-33000 psi
absolute max[/COLOR]
https://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49
it should not take a genius too understand that in a repeater like a marlin or BLR the over all cartridge length must be close to a standard designed length to function reliably regardless of the projectile weight, selected, thus longer projectiles will extend a great deal deeper into the case taking up valuable propellant space, the trade-off tends to make it very difficult in the limited case capacity of the 45/70 and 450 marlin. too efficiently push bullets much over about 430 grains to velocities, at the safe limits in pressure, that provide both reasonably flat trajectory and high retained energy
most loads are well under 28,000 psi hot loads are well under 30,000 psi, and a stead diet of those 30,000 psi loads in a marlin 45/70 will eventually strain and loosen components over time,
you can play with ballistic computers and trajectory charts for weeks if you care too but the math and facts won,t change,if you want to carry a useful rifle that you can expect to use in the feild with a reasonable trajectory, you can graph out the difference between all the potential bullet weights and velocity's, if you care to, (as an engineer I did that lots of times)it won,t change the fact that both the 45/70 and 450 marlin have very similar case capacity and if you graph out all the 300grn -500 grn projectiles loaded to max safe pressures, the 450 marlin holds a minor advantage with its slightly higher safe working pressure and that your most efficient loads based on trajectory, and retained energy and limited case capacity always favor the 350-430 grain projectiles.
look at the loads listed earlier, use a ballistic calculator
youll eventually be forced into that realization , by simple math
https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/
the additional 150-175 or so fps that the 450 marlin allows, over a 45/70 is not all that significant once you realize that the minor increase in impact energy and flatter trajectory will be a very minor advantage and either cartridge punches through an elk and whats behind it easily.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/chamberpressure.html
its stupid to push your handloads past the rifles designed pressure limits but obviously people have occasionally done so!
http://kwk.us/pressures.html
http://www.chuckhawks.com/450Marlin.htm
http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber_pressure
theres no need to push any 45/70 or 450 marlin to greater than about 28,000 psi
a 405-450 grain bullet will generally maximize the results, in the compromise between flat trajectory and penetration as heavier bullets take up a great deal of powder case capacity in either case.
a 45/70 can safely push a 405 grain CAST gas check, or jacketed bullet to about 1800 fps
a 450 marlin can push the same bullet to about 2070 fps
either rifle will kick the crap out of your shoulder at those speeds, if you shoot a great deal of ammo, and either cartridge or rifle loaded too about 1800 fps with 405 grain CAST gas check, or jacketed bullet, loaded to about 1800 fps will punch clear through an elk at 200 yards ... and still punch through a 4" aspen behind that elk, from personal in the field experience
it would be stupid to push pressure higher, that those listed max velocity's above in my opinion, and experience, as the cartridge is devastating on anything so loaded.
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...70&Weight=All&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=
ELK ARE NOT STUPID, as soon as they detect hunters they move to the least accessible areas with the thickest cover , and that usually means youll spend a great deal more time slowly and carefully sneaking thru timber than shooting across open fields like those magazine article pictures taken of elk in parks like yellow-stone suggest.
Ive used a 45/70 for decades in hunting elk in thick cover in colorado canyon country like these pictures others have posted, and lately I traded in my 45/70 marlin for a 450 marlin BLR its noticeably more accurate, than the marlin, the best load I found is a 405 grain remingtom bullet over 50 grains of imr 3031 and a 215 fed primer
much of the area looks similar too these pictures I found posted elseware
450 marlin handloads.
Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS) 250 Barnes XFN Hodgdon H-4198 57.0 2,288
Remarks: 2.10 group
300 Nosler Partition Accurate XMR-2015 60.0 1,970
Remarks: 1.95 group
300 Nosler Partition Accurate XMR-2015 62.0 2,091
Remarks: 1.80 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 51.5 1,751
Remarks: 2.25 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 53.0 1,869
Remarks: 2.10 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 54.0 1,990
Remarks: 1.90 group
300 Barnes XFN Hodgdon H-4198 50.0 1,982
Remarks: 1.65 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon H-4198 48.5 1,842
Remarks: 1.60 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon Varget 59.0 1,770
Remarks: 1.65 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon Varget 61.0 1,821
Remarks: 1.70 group
350 Kodiak FP IMR IMR-3031 56.0 1,827
Remarks: 1.55 group
350 Kodiak FP Hodgdon H-335 60.0 1,872
Remarks: 1.20 group
400 Speer FN Hodgdon H-4895 56.0 1,773
Remarks: 1.75 group
405 Kodiak FP Hodgdon H-322 52.5 1,842
Remarks: 1.50 group
405 Magma cast IMR IMR-4198 32.0 1,332
Remarks: 2.00 group
415 RCBS cast GC Alliant RL-7 48.0 1,875
Remarks: 1.80 group
415 RCBS cast GC Alliant RL-7 50.0 1,960
Remarks: 1.45 group
300 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 38.7 1,928
Remarks: start chg
300 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 43.0 2,096
Remarks: max chg
405 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 36.0 1,716
Remarks: start chg
405 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 40.0 1,865
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 43.2 2,034
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 48.0 2,211
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 52.2 2,198
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 58.0 2,389
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 54.9 2,217
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 61.0 2,410
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 58.1 2,226
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 64.5 2,420
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 60.3 2,214
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 67.0 2,407
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 59.4 2,001
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 66.0 2,175
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 56.7 2,034
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 63.0 2,211
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 39.4 1,813
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 43.8 1,971
Remarks: max chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 46.1 1,919
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 51.2 2,086
Remarks: max chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 50.0 2,030
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 55.5 2,207
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 55.8 2,067
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 62.0 2,247
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 55.8 2,010
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 62.0 2,185
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 54.9 1,892
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 61.0 2,057
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 55.8 1,982
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 62.0 2,154
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2700 55.8 1,719
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2700 62.0 1,869
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 36.9 1,688
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 41.0 1,835
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-1680 41.4 1,732
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-1680 46.0 1,883
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2015 47.3 1,883
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2015 52.5 2,047
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2230 49.9 1,877
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2230 55.4 2,040
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2460 54.0 1,909
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2460 60.0 2,075
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2495 49.5 1,689
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2495 55.0 1,836
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2520 53.1 1,875
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2520 59.0 2,038
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2700 53.1 1,620
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2700 59.0 1,761
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Barnes XFN IMR IMR-3031 52.5 1,870
Remarks: 35,000 psi; compressed powder charge
300 Barnes XFN IMR IMR-4198 44.2 2,000
Remarks: 39,000 psi
300 Nosler Partition IMR IMR-3031 57.0 2,100
Remarks: 35,000 psi; compressed powder charge
350 Hornady IMR IMR-3031 56.0 2,030
Remarks: 38,000 psi; compressed powder charge
350 Hornady IMR IMR-4198 45.0 2,050
Remarks: 40,000 psi
400 Barnes Flat Nose IMR IMR-3031 50.8 1,860
Remarks: 40,000 psi; compressed powder charge
400 Remington soft point IMR IMR-3031 50.0 1,840
Remarks: 40,000 psi; compressed powder charge (VERY ACCURATE)
400 Barnes Flat Nose IMR IMR-4198 40.0 1,820
Remarks: 40,000 psi
if you want a good 450 marlin load try 50 grains of IMR 3031 under a 405 remington bullet and a 215 fed primer, its accurate and will kill anything in north America if you place your shots well,
load either cartridge to about 1850 fps with that 405 grain remington, sight in to hit 3.5" high at 100 yards and start hunting the thick timber knowing you holding thors hammer, most of your shots will be well under 150 yards but even at 250 yards a center chest hold is devastating on deer or elk.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...hooting-from-field-positions.9380/#post-55569
decent quality optics are mandatory
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....x42mm-30mm-tube-nikoplex-reticle-matte-finish
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...hat-are-you-looking-for-in-an-elk-rifle.2368/
https://www.fieldandstream.com/12-best-rifle-cartridges-for-elk-hunting#page-13
http://www.petersenshunting.com/gea...y-mag-vs-375-hh-whats-the-best-elk-cartridge/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...looking-for-a-good-7mm-rem-mag-elk-load.6270/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-favorite-and-most-used-big-game-rifle.13113/
that has almost always been in Colorado or Wyoming, Idaho, or northern California in steep canyons ,
hunting mule deer and in mostly Colorado or Wyoming, when I could draw the permits for elk!
(keep in mind the terrain you hunt and what you hunt obviously has a huge effect on what you,ll find to be ideal)
so it is also making the choice more difficult, simply because as I gained experience.
I also tended to try out different rifles, mostly because as I gained experience,
I came to realize the characteristics of what I needed or even wanted had changed!
when I was younger all the magazine articles I read were pushing the concept of the necessity,
of having a high velocity, super flat trajectory over almost any other consideration,
so the 270 win , 300 win mag, and the 7mm rem mag were almost always being pushed,
as some how head and shoulders superior too the old and supposedly obsolete 30/06 .
It was hinted rather pointedly that if you showed up in any deer or elk hunting camp west of the Mississippi river, with anything like a 358 win or 35 whelen or saints save us, a 444 marlin, 450 marlin, 458 win, or 45/70,
you were simply flaunting your total ballistic ignorance, and obviously were the type of person that spent most of their days dressed in a flannel jump suit, playing with dust floating in the beams of sun light ,
that managed to leak into your padded cell at the home for the permanently confused!
Now the funny thing was that the guys I was being mentored by acted as if they never read a single magazine, in fact ,
I was flat out told that a Remington slide action in 30/06 was and would always be the ideal rifle.
the fact that my mentors were very well know for filling their elk tags at a much higher rate than the states statistic suggested was normal, year in and year out just seemed confusing to me in my late teens and early 20s.
well to answer my personal selection, its a toss-up between a 340 wby , loaded with 250 grain bullets and a 375 H&H loaded with 270 grain bullets.
when selecting the best rifle and caliber for the application I've always felt the characteristics that held the most weight should be
(1) will the rifle and caliber allow you to effectively kill the game, your hunting, with a shot /projectile capable of passing completely through the game, from ANY REASONABLE angle and range
(2) can the user accurately place shots rapidly from any reasonable field position and range.
(3) recoil levels should not intimidate the user from quickly attaining a field position
(4) total dependability
Ive always asked myself, would this rifle.work if I jump an elk in thick timber at 30-40 yards,
as well as it will if I see the elk of a life time walking over a ridge at 300-350 yards with only seconds to make a shot?
I've tried over a dozen other rifles and they all worked ,
everything from a 257 Roberts to a 458 lott, I came to realize it was not the rifle of the cartridge selected , but the skill and knowledge of the guy using the rifle that mattered far more.
I received a brief e-mail asking why I seem to be promoting the 450 marlin BLR
Im not promoting any caliber or action type, simply pointing out what I see rather frequently, used.
The WEATHERBY Fibermark Stainless BOLT ACTION is available in-
.257 Weatherby Mag. | .300 Weatherby Mag. |
.270 Weatherby Mag. | .30-378 Weatherby Mag. |
7mm Remington Mag. | .338 Winchester Mag. |
7mm Weatherby Mag. | .340 Weatherby Mag. |
.300 Winchester Mag. | .375 H&H Mag. |
while earlier in the thread,and in other threads, Ive stated Ive used a SAKO 375 H&H carbine hunting thick timber hunting elk.
well thats a good observation
Ive used BOTH rifles and the 375 H&H sako manlicher carbine similar too these pictures
my late hunting partner vastly preferred the 358 win BLR
(mostly Id bet because the 358 win was available when he started hunting elk and the 450 marlin only came out after he passed on)
well Ive watched a great many guys hunt, the thicker timber slopes where ranges tend to be well under 100 yards and you certainly don,t want any game you shot running any distance,
heavy bullets in the 30 caliber and larger in the 180 grain or heavier range work rather well.
and you certainly are unlikely too, get your choice in distance or the games stance or choice of shot angle.
many prefer those larger bore Marlin and browning lever actions, as you can get a very rapid second shot.
two factors come to mind here
(1) few guys I know have ever needed a rapid second shot
(2) even fewer have developed the well practiced skill of rapidly working a bolt action while your in recoil,
from the first shot and not removing the rifle stock off your shoulder.
I find most guys are faster making a follow up shot or at least having that second cartridge re-chambered with a lever action,
and while that might seem to be an advantage, once you have developed the knack of using a bolt gun with out removing it from the shoulder,
while working the bolt, I feel the advantage is negligible if it exists... especially when I rarely see a second shot from either rifle is required.
like I stated, pick what YOUR familiar with and COMFORTABLE useing....your un-likely to make a bad choice.
but I had excellent and consistent results with the 340 wby , loaded with 250 grain bullets and a 375 H&H loaded with 270 grain bullets, and those rifles get grabbed as I head out the door more than any others I've used.
I've yet to see any animal hit in the vitals make it it very far once hit with either of those rifles without a very obvious indication they were mortally hit, and while most (maybe 95%) were shot at under 250 yards,
a VERY few were dropped out in the 400-500 yardage ranges.
now if I drop back to hunting hogs and whitetail deer . the 257 roberts ,
358 win and certainly the 44 mag and 45/70 all get field time, and like I mentioned previously,
the skill and knowledge of the guy using the rifle that mattered far more, that the rifle or caliber used. just a side note
when I first got into hunting elk , I was about 18 years old, and that was back in about 1968, and I was very lucky,
I had several skilled mentors with decades of experience ,that made the trip out to Colorado every year,
these guys were all in their 40s & -50s and 60s at that time ,they had all been hunting for decades,
all but one of those "old geezers' were using a 760 rem slide action or bolt action 30/06 rifles,
(the sporters based on the 1917 Endfield and mod 70 win were revered,) most of them used 180 grain or 220 grain round nose bullets,
these geezers stressed, the importance of learning to having the skill to drop into a sitting position with proper use of a rifle sling and being consistently able to place shots on a 3" orange dot at 100 yards,
they also explained trajectory, and strongly suggested sighting into hit 3.5" high at 100 yards, so range estimation was not extremely critical.
they also suggested learning to shoot skeet, because hunting in the thick timber might require shooting off-hand at closer ranges.
as that was what too a man they had found to be very effective, so on their advise,
I purchased and used a 760 rem on my first three hunts.
( could not locate a 1917 Endfield)
those were exciting times and these guys did a great deal to get me up too speed on learning where to look for elk,
how to find them and how to dress out and care for and transport the meat once the deer and elk we shot, were down.
now I read every hunting article and magazine, I could find at the time ,
if your my age you might remember the 7mm mag and 300 win mag both came out in about 1963,all the magazines were full of articles promoting the
pre 1964 winchester bolt guns and lamenting the crappy new Winchesters, the fairly new remington 700 rifles were heavily advertised.
but at about the same time frame the 340 weatherby in the mark V rifle was being heavily promoted
being young I read everything I could find and became convinced, I really needed to spend about 2 months pay and buy a weatherby 340 mag.
It took me over a year to save up and get one.
now looking back, and thinking about the results, the 340 wby worked and continues to work exceptionally well,
but every deer or elk I shot, with my 30/06 was just as dead, and in either case a single well placed shot was lethal.
the difference was that if I hit an elk with a 30/06 , well mostly they looked like they just were startled and ran, a few steps then fell,
hit in a similar location with the 340,wby few ran, most fell or stood as if dazed then slowly collapsed, few ran, while both were lethal, there was an obvious difference in the initial , reaction to a well placed shot.
over the following decades while watching many dozens of guys kill deer and elk,
it became obvious to me that the rifle and caliber ,the guy carried was far less important that the skill and experience of the guy using it.
especially after watching the older guys, and newer members of the group, use everything from a 257 roberts and 6.5mm swedish mauser to a 45/70 and 458 win,
and even rather less popular calibers, for elk and mule deer, like a 44 mag marlin lever action, and 35 rem.
all worked if the guy using it was a good shot!
the butt stock cartridge sleeve that holds 8-9 cartridges is almost a mandatory accessory like a sling on most rifles in my opinion
honestly I can count the number of times I've even seen a legal bull elk that looked like it was worth shooting, on public land, at ranges over 300 yards in the last 46 years on a single hand and still have unused fingers.. In my experience a 338 caliber, 250 grain bullet pushed too just under 2800 fps kills anything I've ever used it on.
yes in theory I could gain a bit flatter trajectory and a bit more impact energy by boosting velocity with hotter loads... but I don,t see any benefit!
now I'm not suggesting loading down to lower velocity as a goal,
but if my most accurate load happens to be 50 fps-100 fps slower than the max listed velocity you can find listed in the manuals,
I don,t, miss a minutes sleep worrying about the rifles lethality.
I'd bet he would totally flip out if he knew my back-up rifle was a 20" sako 375H&H carbine that barely brakes 2450 fps with a 270 grain bullet and that both rifles have a long very successful record of dumping elk!
while the rifles might seem a bit too powerful in many peoples opinion
I think most of us tend to select the rifles and calibers we have the most confidence in,
or have had the best results using.
I've never regretted using a synthetic stock/stainless weatherby mark V in 340 weatherby,(similar to these two pictures)
for most of my western hunting
I've used a sako 375 H&H carbine for the thicker timber
they all have their strong and weak features, some guys prefer brunettes some blonds, its all a mater of what best matches your idea of perfection,
I tend to grab the rifle that best matches the terrain and game I intend to hunt , and I've come to prefer and favor the 33-45 calibers personally, but after almost 50 years of hunting big game I've come to realize that the guy holding the tool and his level of experience, and persistence, is by far the most important factor determining the likely success. select about anything with a common deer rifles power level, like a 270 win-308 win and an experienced and knowledgeable and persistent hunter cam make it work rather effectively.
YEAH, A BROWNING blr IN 450 MARLIN
IS DESIGNED TO HANDLE max PRESSURE LEVELS in factory ammo,of about 43,000 psi roughly 50% higher than a 45/70, ,the action on a marlin 450 marlin BLR is front locking like a bolt action , it can safely handle slightly more pressure. a rear locking action on a marlin lever action can,t safely handle , more than about 33000 psi
the marlin is from what Ive read several places designed to handle approximately 32000-33000 psi
absolute max[/COLOR]
https://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49
it should not take a genius too understand that in a repeater like a marlin or BLR the over all cartridge length must be close to a standard designed length to function reliably regardless of the projectile weight, selected, thus longer projectiles will extend a great deal deeper into the case taking up valuable propellant space, the trade-off tends to make it very difficult in the limited case capacity of the 45/70 and 450 marlin. too efficiently push bullets much over about 430 grains to velocities, at the safe limits in pressure, that provide both reasonably flat trajectory and high retained energy
most loads are well under 28,000 psi hot loads are well under 30,000 psi, and a stead diet of those 30,000 psi loads in a marlin 45/70 will eventually strain and loosen components over time,
you can play with ballistic computers and trajectory charts for weeks if you care too but the math and facts won,t change,if you want to carry a useful rifle that you can expect to use in the feild with a reasonable trajectory, you can graph out the difference between all the potential bullet weights and velocity's, if you care to, (as an engineer I did that lots of times)it won,t change the fact that both the 45/70 and 450 marlin have very similar case capacity and if you graph out all the 300grn -500 grn projectiles loaded to max safe pressures, the 450 marlin holds a minor advantage with its slightly higher safe working pressure and that your most efficient loads based on trajectory, and retained energy and limited case capacity always favor the 350-430 grain projectiles.
look at the loads listed earlier, use a ballistic calculator
youll eventually be forced into that realization , by simple math
https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/
the additional 150-175 or so fps that the 450 marlin allows, over a 45/70 is not all that significant once you realize that the minor increase in impact energy and flatter trajectory will be a very minor advantage and either cartridge punches through an elk and whats behind it easily.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/chamberpressure.html
its stupid to push your handloads past the rifles designed pressure limits but obviously people have occasionally done so!
http://kwk.us/pressures.html
http://www.chuckhawks.com/450Marlin.htm
http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber_pressure
theres no need to push any 45/70 or 450 marlin to greater than about 28,000 psi
a 405-450 grain bullet will generally maximize the results, in the compromise between flat trajectory and penetration as heavier bullets take up a great deal of powder case capacity in either case.
a 45/70 can safely push a 405 grain CAST gas check, or jacketed bullet to about 1800 fps
a 450 marlin can push the same bullet to about 2070 fps
either rifle will kick the crap out of your shoulder at those speeds, if you shoot a great deal of ammo, and either cartridge or rifle loaded too about 1800 fps with 405 grain CAST gas check, or jacketed bullet, loaded to about 1800 fps will punch clear through an elk at 200 yards ... and still punch through a 4" aspen behind that elk, from personal in the field experience
it would be stupid to push pressure higher, that those listed max velocity's above in my opinion, and experience, as the cartridge is devastating on anything so loaded.
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...70&Weight=All&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=
ELK ARE NOT STUPID, as soon as they detect hunters they move to the least accessible areas with the thickest cover , and that usually means youll spend a great deal more time slowly and carefully sneaking thru timber than shooting across open fields like those magazine article pictures taken of elk in parks like yellow-stone suggest.
Ive used a 45/70 for decades in hunting elk in thick cover in colorado canyon country like these pictures others have posted, and lately I traded in my 45/70 marlin for a 450 marlin BLR its noticeably more accurate, than the marlin, the best load I found is a 405 grain remingtom bullet over 50 grains of imr 3031 and a 215 fed primer
much of the area looks similar too these pictures I found posted elseware
450 marlin handloads.
Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS) 250 Barnes XFN Hodgdon H-4198 57.0 2,288
Remarks: 2.10 group
300 Nosler Partition Accurate XMR-2015 60.0 1,970
Remarks: 1.95 group
300 Nosler Partition Accurate XMR-2015 62.0 2,091
Remarks: 1.80 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 51.5 1,751
Remarks: 2.25 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 53.0 1,869
Remarks: 2.10 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 54.0 1,990
Remarks: 1.90 group
300 Barnes XFN Hodgdon H-4198 50.0 1,982
Remarks: 1.65 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon H-4198 48.5 1,842
Remarks: 1.60 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon Varget 59.0 1,770
Remarks: 1.65 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon Varget 61.0 1,821
Remarks: 1.70 group
350 Kodiak FP IMR IMR-3031 56.0 1,827
Remarks: 1.55 group
350 Kodiak FP Hodgdon H-335 60.0 1,872
Remarks: 1.20 group
400 Speer FN Hodgdon H-4895 56.0 1,773
Remarks: 1.75 group
405 Kodiak FP Hodgdon H-322 52.5 1,842
Remarks: 1.50 group
405 Magma cast IMR IMR-4198 32.0 1,332
Remarks: 2.00 group
415 RCBS cast GC Alliant RL-7 48.0 1,875
Remarks: 1.80 group
415 RCBS cast GC Alliant RL-7 50.0 1,960
Remarks: 1.45 group
300 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 38.7 1,928
Remarks: start chg
300 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 43.0 2,096
Remarks: max chg
405 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 36.0 1,716
Remarks: start chg
405 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 40.0 1,865
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 43.2 2,034
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 48.0 2,211
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 52.2 2,198
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 58.0 2,389
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 54.9 2,217
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 61.0 2,410
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 58.1 2,226
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 64.5 2,420
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 60.3 2,214
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 67.0 2,407
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 59.4 2,001
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 66.0 2,175
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 56.7 2,034
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 63.0 2,211
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 39.4 1,813
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 43.8 1,971
Remarks: max chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 46.1 1,919
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 51.2 2,086
Remarks: max chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 50.0 2,030
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 55.5 2,207
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 55.8 2,067
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 62.0 2,247
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 55.8 2,010
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 62.0 2,185
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 54.9 1,892
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 61.0 2,057
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 55.8 1,982
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 62.0 2,154
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2700 55.8 1,719
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2700 62.0 1,869
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 36.9 1,688
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 41.0 1,835
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-1680 41.4 1,732
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-1680 46.0 1,883
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2015 47.3 1,883
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2015 52.5 2,047
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2230 49.9 1,877
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2230 55.4 2,040
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2460 54.0 1,909
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2460 60.0 2,075
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2495 49.5 1,689
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2495 55.0 1,836
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2520 53.1 1,875
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2520 59.0 2,038
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2700 53.1 1,620
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2700 59.0 1,761
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Barnes XFN IMR IMR-3031 52.5 1,870
Remarks: 35,000 psi; compressed powder charge
300 Barnes XFN IMR IMR-4198 44.2 2,000
Remarks: 39,000 psi
300 Nosler Partition IMR IMR-3031 57.0 2,100
Remarks: 35,000 psi; compressed powder charge
350 Hornady IMR IMR-3031 56.0 2,030
Remarks: 38,000 psi; compressed powder charge
350 Hornady IMR IMR-4198 45.0 2,050
Remarks: 40,000 psi
400 Barnes Flat Nose IMR IMR-3031 50.8 1,860
Remarks: 40,000 psi; compressed powder charge
400 Remington soft point IMR IMR-3031 50.0 1,840
Remarks: 40,000 psi; compressed powder charge (VERY ACCURATE)
400 Barnes Flat Nose IMR IMR-4198 40.0 1,820
Remarks: 40,000 psi
if you want a good 450 marlin load try 50 grains of IMR 3031 under a 405 remington bullet and a 215 fed primer, its accurate and will kill anything in north America if you place your shots well,
load either cartridge to about 1850 fps with that 405 grain remington, sight in to hit 3.5" high at 100 yards and start hunting the thick timber knowing you holding thors hammer, most of your shots will be well under 150 yards but even at 250 yards a center chest hold is devastating on deer or elk.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...hooting-from-field-positions.9380/#post-55569
decent quality optics are mandatory
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....x42mm-30mm-tube-nikoplex-reticle-matte-finish
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...hat-are-you-looking-for-in-an-elk-rifle.2368/
https://www.fieldandstream.com/12-best-rifle-cartridges-for-elk-hunting#page-13
http://www.petersenshunting.com/gea...y-mag-vs-375-hh-whats-the-best-elk-cartridge/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...looking-for-a-good-7mm-rem-mag-elk-load.6270/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-favorite-and-most-used-big-game-rifle.13113/
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