Building a S̶t̶r̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶3̶5̶0̶ 383 for Frank the Tank…

87vette81big said:
Gather your Tool List Jimmy.
A Good Piston Ring compressor.
The Wrinkle Band style works nice.
A Tapered Ring compressor is best.
File fit each piston ring.
Need Rod bolt protectors.
Plastic Guage SP-1 Green.
You likely don't have a Precise dial.bore guage & A Full 0-5 inch micrometer set.
That's Ok.
Building your 1st engine & its a Street engine. Not Full Race.
Lettuce Feeler Guages can be used in place to check piston to cylinder wall clearance .
Click to expand...

I'm getting there Brian... :)
Thanks for the list..
Do the size specific ring compressors work that much better..? Being a one off size seems like it might be a waste... I don't imagine I'll have multiple .40 over engines...
I still need ring files..
I've got fancy home made fuel line, rod bolt protectors...:p
Got plastigauge, green. About how many strips should I need?
Nope no bore gauges... I've got on small micrometer.. Would a set of snap gauges (is that what they're called?) and a bigger 5inch micrometer be enough?
I could probably do with a better set of feeler gauges... But, I'll try to get away with the odds and ends I have..
 
Grumpy said:
a few tool related threads with sub links

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/what-hand-tools-to-buy.4069/#post-10827

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/what-tools-are-important.39/#post-47

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/precision-measuring-tools.1390/#post-52469

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/#post-55314

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bare-minimum-tools.11026/#post-51823

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/cam-degreeing.9010/#post-35474

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...all-tools-install-info.1479/page-2#post-35245

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/porting-can-help.462/
Click to expand...
Thanks Grumpy :)
 
Grumpy said:
I know several people that bought used dish washers at yard sales, and moving sales, specifically for use as auto parts cleaner tools
Click to expand...

chromebumpers said:
Just about weekly there is some restaurant within driving distance that closed down and is taken apart in an auction sale. If you can get one of those commercial dishwashers that has an internal water heater they make a pretty good parts washer. They are usually propane with 115 volts. Really easy connections and a little plumbing to a 55 gal drum. Auction records on the internet show these go for $145 to $542 which is a fraction of a parts steamer.
Click to expand...

I'll add that to my list of things I will have in my workshop when $$ and space is not a consideration.... ;)
 
JimmyDuncan said:
What's the important ingredient in Dawn..? Again, not/no longer available in Oz...
Click to expand...
Many patent owning manufactures sell licenses for other companies to produce their products And change the name. Example: Harris Int. Makes Evapo Rust and allows Rustoleum to mix under their own name. It's a matter of product distribution and shipping a product that is 90% water (think of Coke). Many times when a product is not sold in a particularly large market area it's because the product is sold under a different label. I believe Dawn is sold around different parts of Eastern Europe, Asia and other places under a different name. I don't know what makes Dawn so good other than its super concentrated surfactant.
 
I managed to have a crack at measuring my piston to deck clearance this evening... which is the next step in confirming which heads I'm going to buy..... The machine shop recommended that I go with 64cc heads, potentially the e-streets, for value for money.. I was wondering if I might be better with the 70cc, both for getting the right compression ratios and also as Grumpy mentioned the bigger chamber is less likely to shroud or restrict valve curtain flow.

deck bridge.jpg

I now have one more piece of the puzzle figured out Now I'm after some help filling the blanks in Rick's great compression ratio calculator, with an end goal of confirming a cam and heads..

I seemed to get approximately the same measurement in all four corners of the block.. I say approximately because my cheap dial gauge was a little temperamental and I found that how the rod sat on the crank and other directions of wiggle, tended to change the measurement.. I used the same rod and piston and edged the piston with tape to steady it in the bore, which helped. I measured along the centreline of the wrist pin at each end. All four corners were approx 0.009" give or take... :rolleyes: (I'm reading that right yes?)

deck height.jpg

So that can now go into the calculator... There are still a lot of gaps... I have bore 4.040 and stroke 3.750, deck height 0.009 :), the valve reliefs I'm estimating at 6cc? based on other info online.. I'll contact the distributor and find out.. they have 4 valve reliefs, as you can see in the pic above.. then there are the couple of less important measurements I have left alone and the rod length at 5.7..

I need help and recommendations on:

1. Cam - Grumpy has made a few recommendations... I recall a Crane Cam 110911 being a possibility
http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=23967
How do I enter that into the Intake Valve Closing Angle Calculator?

1. Head chamber size - I'm going to have to compromise on the heads and probably go with the e-streets, which will not take much lift... But I can change springs etc to help with that yes? They come in 64cc and 70cc - so with IVCA and the appropriate gasket diameter and thickness, which chamber size do I need, to get the best DCR/SCR? Keeping in mind that it will run on 98RON which is equivalent to 93-94 in US..

How do I fill these gaps?

calc so far.png
 
The Dynamic calc Rick made will figure your Intake closing angle its on the second or third tab. The piston dome value, depending on what piston, flat top with 2v reliefs advertise 5 cc, seen many and they usually measure 4.7 cc, flat top with 4v reliefs advertise 7cc usually measure 6.4 cc. The gasket diameter, I would use one with 4.06 diameter, thickness will depend on your deck height measurement, you want your quench to equal .038 - .042, say your deck is .025 for 0.038 needs .013 thick head gasket, for .042 needs .017 thick head gasket. Add or subtract depending on your deck measurement. The chamber size you can play with to find the correct Static and Dynamic ratios your looking for in your build.
 
So it that cam hydraulic flat tappet or solid flat tappet, the top says hydraulic but it has lash settings for .022 hot for a solid?
 
[qoute]
1. Cam - Grumpy has made a few recommendations... I recall a Crane Cam 110911 being a possibility
http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=23967
How do I enter that into the Intake Valve Closing Angle Calculator?[/quote]

the first step is pulling up the cam spec card

crane110911a.png

take the intake close specs , on the card, in this case 36 degrees and add 15 degrees (51) to get the APPROX valve seat timing and use that for calcs.
 
busterrm said:
The Dynamic calc Rick made will figure your Intake closing angle its on the second or third tab. The piston dome value, depending on what piston, flat top with 2v reliefs advertise 5 cc, seen many and they usually measure 4.7 cc, flat top with 4v reliefs advertise 7cc usually measure 6.4 cc. The gasket diameter, I would use one with 4.06 diameter, thickness will depend on your deck height measurement, you want your quench to equal .038 - .042, say your deck is .025 for 0.038 needs .013 thick head gasket, for .042 needs .017 thick head gasket. Add or subtract depending on your deck measurement. The chamber size you can play with to find the correct Static and Dynamic ratios your looking for in your build.
Click to expand...

Ok thanks for the extra info.

  1. Piston cc - I'll use 6.4 for the valve relief measurement for now.
  2. Gasket diameter - I'll use 4.060
  3. Gasket thickness - I'll use my 0.009 (should I just use 0.010?) deck height + 0.030 for the gasket, which gives me a 0.040
 
busterrm said:
So it that cam hydraulic flat tappet or solid flat tappet, the top says hydraulic but it has lash settings for .022 hot for a solid?
Click to expand...

Ah, yes I recall this being the case previously when Grumpy suggested it.. Rick picked that up..

Is there a way to search for a similar spec cam in a hydraulic flat tappet?
 
:oops:
Grumpy said:
[qoute]
1. Cam - Grumpy has made a few recommendations... I recall a Crane Cam 110911 being a possibility
http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=23967
How do I enter that into the Intake Valve Closing Angle Calculator?
Click to expand...

the first step is pulling up the cam spec card

crane110911a.png

take the intake close specs , on the card, in this case 36 degrees and add 15 degrees (51) to get the APPROX valve seat timing and use that for calcs.[/QUOTE]

So, in the case of this cam I use 51 instead of using the IVC Angle chart on Rick's spreadsheet? Or am I missing something.. If I'm wrong, take it slow for me....:oops:

Using 51 I get high numbers on the calculator... What have I done wrong..?

With the info from busterrm and using 51, here's my numbers.. Have I mis-entered something, or do I need to adjust to get more suitable compression ratios.? It doesn't look right to me.. Feeling a bit slow right now.. o_O

Am I right that I'll probably need a bigger chamber size (70cc) to drop my SCR to about 10, and a smaller cam to get the DCR closer to 8.25?

upload_2016-3-13_9-12-12.png
 
Last edited:
I ran the Numbers on Keith Blacks Static & Dynamic compression ratuo calculatir and got similar results Jimmy.
Only way I got 8.00 :1 Dynamic compression ratio with the speced cam 36 + 15 =51 Degrees ABDC Intake closung was to use 80 CC Combustion chambers.
Those are Oldsmibile 425 & 455 head chamber volumes only.
I recall smog era SBC had 76 cc chambers
Too late now but I think your engune should have been built with 15-30 cc Dish cup pistons.

Have to use a Long duration camshaft likely.
Rumpty Rump Race profile.
Not what Grumpy likes.
 
Be around later Jimmy.
Have to drive 100 miles to Chicago.
Get the Wifee'.
Flying back home from Maryland.
Been watching the kids all week & working too.
 
87vette81big said:
I ran the Numbers on Keith Blacks Static & Dynamic compression ratuo calculatir and got similar results Jimmy.
Only way I got 8.00 :1 Dynamic compression ratio with the speced cam 36 + 15 =51 Degrees ABDC Intake closung was to use 80 CC Combustion chambers.
Those are Oldsmibile 425 & 455 head chamber volumes only.
I recall smog era SBC had 76 cc chambers
Too late now but I think your engune should have been built with 15-30 cc Dish cup pistons.

Have to use a Long duration camshaft likely.
Rumpty Rump Race profile.
Not what Grumpy likes.
Click to expand...

Well, at least you get similar results Brian.. :) Means I'm on track.. with the calculations..... But, I don't like to hear I've possibly got sub-optimal parts..

So, I'm correct that larger combustion chambers and a different speced cam are required to make what I have work..?

I changed these in the spreadsheet and got this..

upload_2016-3-13_10-21-13.png

I could get 70cc heads and cam to produced an IVC angle of 65, which makes the numbers look better... I'm not really sure what a cam that produces 65 IVCA will run like though.... Is that going to be workable?
 
I can text and drive but I should'nt Jimmy.
Hauling my kids tonight too.
Wait for Grumpy & Rick.
Be free again 10-11 pm Central Chicago time.
 
8.00:1 Max dynamic or very close.
7.5:1 - 8.0 :1 better.
87-91-93 octane burner.

Real world driving.

I ran a few numbers from Pontiac & Olds V8 bone stock.in.the past no race factory engines.
They fit 8.0 :1 dynamics rule
 
87vette81big said:
I can text and drive but I should'nt Jimmy.
Hauling my kids tonight too.
Wait for Grumpy & Rick.
Be free again 10-11 pm Central Chicago time.
Click to expand...

Yeah, don't text and drive mate... :)

87vette81big said:
8.00:1 Max dynamic or very close.
7.5:1 - 8.0 :1 better.
87-91-93 octane burner.

Real world driving.

I ran a few numbers from Pontiac & Olds V8 bone stock.in.the past no race factory engines.
They fit 8.0 :1 dynamics rule
Click to expand...

Ok, I thought I'd recalled from a previous discussion with Rick that maybe 8.25 dynamic might be ok on our 98RON gas..

If I'm after about 8.0 dynamic, then I am after about 68 IVC angle... with a cam to get there.. Hopefully Rick and Grumpy come by soon :)

Do I just start trawling through the cam catalogues looking for cams with an intake closure at 0.50 of 53 or so? I'm guessing not...
 
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