Building a S̶t̶r̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶3̶5̶0̶ 383 for Frank the Tank…

Indycars said:
It just depends on how conservative you want to be. If it was me, I would go with
the 64 cc chambers for Engine #2. But of course that's just me talking. Remember
he has access to 93-94 octane fuel.
Click to expand...

and if I use the slightly higher cc (which is a guesstimate at this stage..) for the piston valve reliefs, it gets slightly more conservative.. :)

upload_2016-3-14_9-19-12.png
 
Grumpy said:
just a thought!
every choice is a compromise
and these are random power figures not related to your build specifically
if you go with the larger combustion chamber and slightly lower compression your less likely to run into detonation issues that can cause a great deal of damage, the cost in power would likely be about 4% less torque for EACH full compression ratio, so if for example you were going from 8:1 to 8.2:1 dynamic compression you could reasonably expect to see a .2% reduction, in torque.
lets say the engine combo produced 450 ft lbs at the higher 8.2:1 dynamic compression, and peak torque was at 4700 rpm, and at 5600 rpm it had dropped to 420 ft lbs=that would be entered into the hp formula
tq x rpm/5252=hp, that equals 447.8 hp
if we has .2% less torque, roughly 5 ft lbs less=442 peak hp for a bit of insurance that youve built an engine with less tendency to get into detonation

whats that worth in ET?
lets say the car weights 3400 lbs

here you might be taking a chance at busting a ring or piston due to detonation
Your ET / MPH computed from your vehicle weight of 3400 pounds and HP of 447.8 is 11.45 seconds and MPH of 118.05 MPH.

Your ET / MPH computed from your vehicle weight of 3400 pounds and HP of 442 is 11.50 seconds and MPH of 117.53 MPH
here you might be taking a significantly lower chance at busting a ring or piston due to detonation
Click to expand...

I'm definitely hearing the voice of reason in this post :)

Grumpy do these numbers look like they are too close to the edge..? Am I pushing it with this combo? I'm aware that a lot of other things go into that question, but should I be backing it off a little?

upload_2016-3-14_9-25-58.png
 
I know your limited by budget, but personally Jimmy I would put in a roller cam, you'll get more tq/hp with the more aggressive cam lobes. But, no the same goes for all cams the LVC angle is usually on the cam card. What do the E Streets cost US dollars? I see them at over 1k, here is a set of BluePrint for 895 that are 195 cc with 64cc chambers, the reviews by several were very good. I have watched a lot of stuff on YouTube about BluePrint Engines and its all positive.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mll-h8002k/overview/make/chevrolet
Here is their product description website, they flow pretty good for a economy head.
http://www.blueprintengines.com/ind...tem/bp-195cc-sb-chevy-aluminum-cylinder-heads
 
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JimmyDuncan said:
How do I find a hydraulic cam with the same characteristics as the Crane 110911 (its a solid)? Would you use exact same numbers? Or, do they need changing when using different style of lifters? Also, keeping in mind the E-Streets have valve spring maximum lift: .550"
Click to expand...

Typically a solid has more acceleration on the lifter and therefore harder on the
valvetrain...... more intended for racing. Now notice that I said typically, that does
not mean in every single case. So to have the same effect you would have to add
some duration......how much well, see next paragraph.

I don't know of any formula or rule-of-thumb that would help, just loads of
experience like Grumpy has. Or why not call Crane and see what they say, if anyone
should know it's them. Don't rule out other cam companies, I like Crower for
personal reasons, Brian like Isky and Grumpy likes several which I'm he has
mentioned.

You are kinda back to square one with the camshaft. Now that you understand
more, try the investigation again from the beginning !

Don't get caught up in the end result, half the fun is in the process to get there.
 
busterrm said:
I know your limited by budget, but personally Jimmy I would put in a roller cam, you'll get more tq/hp with the more aggressive cam lobes. But, no the same goes for all cams the LVC angle is usually on the cam card. What do the E Streets cost US dollars? I see them at over 1k, here is a set of BluePrint for 895 that are 195 cc with 64cc chambers, the reviews by several were very good. I have watched a lot of stuff on YouTube about BluePrint Engines and its all positive.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mll-h8002k/overview/make/chevrolet
Click to expand...
Yeah, I agree that a roller cam would be a better option.... I have been going back and forth in my head on it... but its a significant difference in price.. What would you estimate the increase in cost to be all up between flat tappet and a roller build?

Those Blueprints look like a decent price... Thanks..

Summit - Blueprints delivered = $1760AUD
Summit - E-Streets delivered = $2000AUD, but I can buy a set locally for $1678AUD + free postage...
 
Indycars said:
Typically a solid has more acceleration on the lifter and therefore harder on the
valvetrain...... more intended for racing. Now notice that I said typically, that does
not mean in every single case. So to have the same effect you would have to add
some duration......how much well, see next paragraph.

I don't know of any formula or rule-of-thumb that would help, just loads of
experience like Grumpy has. Or why not call Crane and see what they say, if anyone
should know it's them. Don't rule out other cam companies, I like Crower for
personal reasons, Brian like Isky and Grumpy likes several which I'm he has
mentioned.

You are kinda back to square one with the camshaft. Now that you understand
more, try the investigation again from the beginning !

Don't get caught up in the end result, half the fun is in the process to get there.
Click to expand...

Ha! yep, going backwards.. I'll try contacting a few places.. Ask some questions.. Thanks.
 
The savings on those heads could be invested in a roller cam. That I feel would give you a more stable valvetrain if set up correctly.
 
Well the savings in heads can take up the cost of the cam, BUT, your lifters will cost more they will probably cost about the same as the cam or possibley more. Those blueprint heads are set up for .575 roller cam already. Retrofit lifters will start at about 350 US or more.
 
JimmyDuncan said:
Ha! yep, going backwards.. I'll try contacting a few places.. Ask some questions.. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Call the cam manufacturers, call blueprint about those heads, Ricks right, most of the fun of building your engine is designing how its going to be built and when its done is when its the coolest.
 
busterrm said:
Well the savings in heads can take up the cost of the cam, BUT, your lifters will cost more they will probably cost about the same as the cam or possibley more. Those blueprint heads are set up for .575 roller cam already. Retrofit lifters will start at about 350 US or more.
Click to expand...

True.. I could have my arm twisted into a roller cam.... I need to price up the cost difference and check the piggy bank....
 
busterrm said:
Call the cam manufacturers, call blueprint about those heads, Ricks right, most of the fun of building your engine is designing how its going to be built and when its done is when its the coolest.
Click to expand...

Yeah, will do. There's a local cam company that my engine builder uses, so I'll talk to them tomorrow (public holiday today..).

The planning/designing stage is dragging.... and also, it stresses me out a little bit... I'm still learning and the budget is tight.. I want the best value, performance and durability my $$ will buy.. Not sure its possible to squeeze all into one package..
 
your basic question is \
"can you realistically run 11:1 static compression and cam timing that reduces active compression to 8.04:1 compression?"
the answer depends mostly on the engine's operating temps, ignition advance curve, and fuel octane and physical elevation your driving at,
given good high octane fuel, cool temps and a fairly slow ignition advance and limiting engine temps to under about 200F then youll probably get by,especially if air temps stay fairly low or if your in a location well above sea level,
yes it can be done but Id be happier if the static compression was much closer to 9.6:1-10:1
the potential problem, is that your not always in 100% control of the engines temps, or fuel octane so having a bit of a cushion, in the specs helps.
but at the same time Ill admit I've built several engines that ran rather well built in a similar way, I only mention the potential issues because I've seen the results when guys assume the quench, or spark plug heat range or combustion chamber surface does not mater, the closer you get to pushing the combos component parts , limitations to the breaking point edge, the easier it is to screw up!

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-required-octane-for-compression-ratio.2718/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ow-to-reduce-its-likely-hood.9816/#post-37278

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...tio-your-feedback-is-needed.10698/#post-46493

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccrp-1209-eight-budget-sbc-head-shootout/
 
Well you have several opinion about the same situation..... What Will
You Do ???

Don't hesitate to ask the very same question when you come up with
slightly different numbers and different components ! Just keep asking
until it makes sense in your mind. You need to feel comfortable.
 
I ran those heads on DD2000 and if you retarded that cam(solid cam)you could get a good 425 tq/hp numbers, you'd just have to adjust the valves now and then. Compcams Xtreme roller 276 would work pretty good also. Howards 110245-10 looks good too but would need 8 degrees of retard.
 
Indycars said:
Typically a solid has more acceleration on the lifter and therefore harder on the
valvetrain...... more intended for racing. Now notice that I said typically, that does
not mean in every single case. So to have the same effect you would have to add
some duration......how much well, see next paragraph.

I don't know of any formula or rule-of-thumb that would help, just loads of
experience like Grumpy has. Or why not call Crane and see what they say, if anyone
should know it's them. Don't rule out other cam companies, I like Crower for
personal reasons, Brian like Isky and Grumpy likes several which I'm he has
mentioned.

You are kinda back to square one with the camshaft. Now that you understand
more, try the investigation again from the beginning !

Don't get caught up in the end result, half the fun is in the process to get there.
Click to expand...
I am in total agreement with Rick, once you nail down the parts, there are ways of massaging them from out of box configuration. Gasket matching the intake to the heads and cleaning up the valve bowls Grumpy says is worth 20-30hp.
 
Been busy today working on my 1963 Grand Prix & Olds 425 V8 install.
Anothee night or 2 & Ready to Fire her up.
I see Grumpy, Rick, & Bob are helping tonight.
I am leaning towards Grumpy's 2 cents.
11.0 Static is pretty high.
9.0-9.3 :1 be better.
Anymore I think a Street engine shpuld run safe on 87 octane pee water gas.
In case no other higher octane gas is available. like 89-91-93.
 
To run a Roller Camshaft you need $1,000 bucks to be on the safe side.

Full Road Race or Drag Race Roller, $2,000-4,000 bucks.
$4,000 bucks includes A Full set of 16 Titanium valves.

Flat Tappet Solid & Hydraulic cams still a Good Choice today on a Budget.
 
Grumpy said:
your basic question is \
"can you realistically run 11:1 static compression and cam timing that reduces active compression to 8.04:1 compression?"
the answer depends mostly on the engine's operating temps, ignition advance curve, and fuel octane and physical elevation your driving at,
given good high octane fuel, cool temps and a fairly slow ignition advance and limiting engine temps to under about 200F then youll probably get by,especially if air temps stay fairly low or if your in a location well above sea level,
yes it can be done but Id be happier if the static compression was much closer to 9.6:1-10:1
the potential problem, is that your not always in 100% control of the engines temps, or fuel octane so having a bit of a cushion, in the specs helps.
but at the same time Ill admit I've built several engines that ran rather well built in a similar way, I only mention the potential issues because I've seen the results when guys assume the quench, or spark plug heat range or combustion chamber surface does not mater, the closer you get to pushing the combos component parts , limitations to the breaking point edge, the easier it is to screw up!
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-required-octane-for-compression-ratio.2718/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ow-to-reduce-its-likely-hood.9816/#post-37278

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...tio-your-feedback-is-needed.10698/#post-46493
Click to expand...

I'm hearing you Grumpy.

Being that we get some pretty high temps round here in summer, I'm at about sea level and there are no hills about.. ;), there's potential to get stuck in traffic and I can't guarantee our fuel quality.. Maybe a bigger cc chamber is the smart option.. and as you said, I won't likely be missing the 10ths of seconds off my 1/4 ET....

I've heard lots of stories of higher SCR being fine locally, but I'm guessing people don't tend to tell the stories about how they pushed it too high and caused their engine to explode.....
 
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I just came across these (haven't seen Jegs on Aussie eBay before) that look like they could be delivered to me for AU $1,483.89..

http://www.promaxxperformance.com/index.php/racing-parts/sbc/sbc-small-block-chevy-2112.html

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/400894930741

That's the same price as the E-streets...

They look pretty good. I found a few reviews that they did well.. and someone suggested them way back... 72cc combustion chamber gives me a decent SCR too... looks like closer to 10:1

I might jump on these.. Any reason why they won't work?

Thoughts?
 
Indycars said:
Well you have several opinion about the same situation..... What Will
You Do ???

Don't hesitate to ask the very same question when you come up with
slightly different numbers and different components ! Just keep asking
until it makes sense in your mind. You need to feel comfortable.
Click to expand...

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out Rick... ;)

I'll keep asking... :)

I'll also, just make a few choices and get on with it... I'll check with you guys first of course.. :p
 
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