My Cam Research for the Experts Eye

[Grumpy]

Id strongly suggest you look into , and consider going with the option of a hydraulic roller cam, UPGRADE
as they (if properly installed, with matched valve springs,)
tend to last over 100K miles rather easily in a daily driver,
where a flat tappet hydraulic ,PERFORMANCE AFTERMARKET CAM,
with higher lift and more aggressive ramp designs,
is prone to lobe wear in many cases before 100K miles,
and generally you'll gain 20-25 plus hp even with similar lift and duration , using a hydraulic roller cam,
due to more average peak lift per degree of rotation and lower friction losses.
but you'll generally find you have access to significantly greater lift and power.
using the hydraulic ROLLER lifter designs


something like this instantly jumps into mind
(obviously only one of dozens of your options)
but it looks good for your application

Erson-PBM-World-B2C | E120204 - Erson Cams - CHEV V8 396-454 RH-286-1

READ LINKED INFO

is a roller cam worth the extra cost vs a flat tappet design

heres some info from COMP CAMS " Flat Tappet vs. Roller Tappet Lifters theres far more than just the cam and lifters required to swap types of cams, if your engines currently equipped with a flat tappet cam your almost sure to need a new timing chain set cam button new push rods obviously a new...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

oil system mods that help

heres a short list REMEMBER the object or goal in building and maintaining the lubrication system is too maintain a 100% dependable pressurized cooling flow of lubricant to the bearings, rockers ,valves etc. your most important tool, is your ability to think about how things are supposed to...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

cam wear,articles you need to read

before, you start reading through the thread and links below, Ill point out that I've done the forensics on quite a few failed cams over the years, that guys have brought to my shop and Id say about 60% of the failed cam lobe & lifter problems were traced to a failure to check clearances or...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

degree it in correctly and get it to last,cam install info,

IM frequently asked (why bother degreeing in a cam, the timing set comes with index marks to install it?) it basically comes down to, a question of do you accept a random install where the timing can be almost any place randomly or do you insist on maximizing the engines potential and know...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

sellecting valve springs, and setting up the valve train

How do you determine the spring pressure needed to keep the valves under control for a given lift, duration, and max rpm. It might take you several hours to read thru all the links and sub links but its time very well spent as it could save your engine from destruction and save you thousands of...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

Build Engine For Long Term Durability

STINKY HERE< I am opening a can of worms here, and boys, you keep it civil. What is the best SBC? I am not talking about the one the will put out the most TQ and HP...which one will last for 300K, or more, in a PU, or in your wife's car. Which one lasts the longest, and won't mysteriously just...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

Using Rare Earth Magnets

Using rare earth magnets on/in your oil pan, drain plug, etc.. Do you do it? Or at least when breaking in a motor? You can get them for free if you have any old computer hard drives laying around. I split and opened up a total of 14 older apple hard drives that I had down in the basement, took...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

yes the oil filter you sellect does make a differance

READ THRU THESE SUB LINKS CAREFULLY theres a great deal of info here to look thru. pay attention to filter construction and the filter materials and total filter medium area, when discussing oil filters keep in mind their intended function, which is mostly too efficiently trap and remove...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

 

[Indycars]

I think if there's a simulation to be looked at as a known baseline, it's the Erson cam that was in the car. It worked quite well.

YES, absolutely !!! We need to do this !
I should have something in a 1/2 hour.

So far yes, it seems to provide a reasonable improvement from the original Erson cam in the 1800-5700 rpm range. It would be good to see a comparison of these two cams on the simulator.

But if you are open to the hydraulic roller, then do you want to see this comparison ? Maybe you want to see what kinda gains can be had by a roller compared to the Crower 01295 ? Let me know.

So yes, would be very useful to see any HR cam compared with the baseline Erson TQ20H and the possible Crower 01295- that would give me a real world comparison since I remember clearly how the car drove with the Erson.

OK, I think I see where you are going now...... Where you are now, where would you be with the Crower 01295 (Hyd Flat) and then what would the cost of a roller buy you in performance.

 

[Indycars]

Your head gasket diameter of 4.5 inches is too big and .039 inches thick is too much also,
so I checked on Summit and found several possibilities. The gases trapped in the gap
where the gasket is bigger than the bore will not burn for the most part. Having a quench
distance of .053" will not give you the turbulence you could have during combustion. A
safe limit is considered to start at .040 inches, the gaskets listed will give you .044 inches.
I wanted to make these corrections before going forward so I didn't have to go back and
make them later.

I hope I'm not assuming too much here, but this is what I would do.

CHEVROLET 7.4L/454 Chevy big block Mark IV Head Gaskets Engine Gaskets & Seals Gaskets & Seals - 0.030 in. Compressed Thickness (in.) - 4.310 in. Bore (in.) - 4.320 in. Bore (in.) - Free Shipping on Orders Over $109 at Summit Racing

Find CHEVROLET 7.4L/454 Chevy big block Mark IV Head Gaskets 0.030 in. Compressed Thickness (in.), 4.310 in. Bore (in.), 4.320 in. Bore (in.) and get Free Shipping on Orders Over $109 at Summit Racing!

www.summitracing.com

So this changed the CR for all the engines except for the one you have now. But that still
needed to have a dome of 29.4cc instead of 28cc. All the numbers are per the cam specs,
I have not adjusted the cam timing.



I was surprised that the Erson E120204 roller didn't do better, but either cam is still a
significant improvement over your present cam.



BTW, don't put much faith in those Cranking Pressures in the Excel spreadsheet, they can
vary wildly from reality.

 

[TXChevy]

Id strongly suggest you look into , and consider going with the option of a hydraulic roller cam, UPGRADE
as they (if properly installed, with matched valve springs,)
tend to last over 100K miles rather easily in a daily driver,
where a flat tappet hydraulic ,PERFORMANCE AFTERMARKET CAM,
with higher lift and more aggressive ramp designs,
is prone to lobe wear in many cases before 100K miles,
and generally you'll gain 20-25 plus hp even with similar lift and duration , using a hydraulic roller cam,
due to more average peak lift per degree of rotation and lower friction losses.
but you'll generally find you have access to significantly greater lift and power.
using the hydraulic ROLLER lifter designs

Per what I mentioned about taking advice I'm going to spend more for the HR cam setup. I think looking at the pros and cons, in the long run it would be worthwhile. And rest assured I'm going through the additional links as well.

So now that brings me around to cam selection. The simulation that Rick did is perfect for my visual comprehension.

But if you are open to the hydraulic roller, then do you want to see this comparison ? Maybe you want to see what kinda gains can be had by a roller compared to the Crower 01295 ? Let me know.

Yes as you have done - to leave the baseline Erson TQ20H as a reference but I think that the Crower can be dropped.

Since the Erson E120204 had already been shown on the simulation, I looked at 3 Howards Cams. The conclusion I came to was that two of them aren't the best choice when considering DCR. Does this logic look ok?

HR Howards CL-120245-10 1800-5400 rpm
LCA = 110, lift = Int .567, Exh .578
Adv Dur = Int 278/Exh 284, ICA = 110
Dur @ .050 = Int 225/Exh 231
8d overlap @ .050, 61d overlap @ .006
.006 EBBDC = 72, EATDC = 32
.006 IBTDC = 29, IABDC = 69
.050 EBBDC = 45.5, EATDC = 5.5
.050 IBTDC = 2.5, IABDC = 42.5

HR Howards CL-120243-12 1800-5400 rpm
LCA = 112, lift = Int .567, Exh .578
Adv Dur = Int 278/Exh 284, ICA = 112
Dur @ .050 = Int 225/Exh 231
4d overlap @ .050, 57d overlap @ .006
.006 EBBDC = 74, EATDC = 30
.006 IBTDC = 27, IABDC = 71
.050 EBBDC = 47.5, EATDC = 3.5
.050 IBTDC = .5, IABDC = 44.5
Can this one be added to the simulations?

HR Howards CL-123515-10 1600-5000 rpm
LCA = 110, lift = Int .555, Exh .555
Adv Dur = Int 272/Exh 280, ICA = 110
Dur @ .050 = Int 219/Exh 227
3d overlap @ .050, 56d overlap @ .006
.006 EBBDC = 70, EATDC = 30
.006 IBTDC = 26, IABDC = 66
.050 EBBDC = 43.5, EATDC = 3.5
.050 IBTDC = -.5, IABDC = 39.5

Erson E120204	Howards CL-120245-10	Howards CL-120243-12	Howards CL-123515-10
4.280	4.280	4.280	4.280
4.000	4.000	4.000	4.000
116.0	116.0	116.0	116.0
0.014	0.014	0.014	0.014
0.039	0.039	0.039	0.039
4.500	4.500	4.500	4.500
-29.40	-29.40	-29.40	-29.40
0.300	0.300	0.300	0.300
0.0070	0.0070	0.0070	0.0070
6.135	6.135	6.135	6.135
77.0	69.0	71.0	66.0
14.7	14.7	14.7	14.7
7.52	8.08	7.94	8.28
10.42	10.42	10.42	10.42
175.74	194.12	189.65	200.63

I'll continue to look further at some other brands.

Thank you so much, this is starting to make much better sense to me now.

 

[TXChevy]

Rick, I posted my reply before seeing your last info, please let me take a look and I'll make any needed changes.

PS no you're not assuming too much, I had no real idea about the head gasket factors until I saw the impact they can have.

EDIT
Here's the revised calc on the cams I mentioned. With the changes in the head gasket data, it appears that none are the optimum choice?

Erson E120204	Howards CL-120245-10	Howards CL-120243-12	Howards CL-123515-10
4.280	4.280	4.280	4.280
4.000	4.000	4.000	4.000
116.0	116.0	116.0	116.0
0.014	0.014	0.014	0.014
0.030	0.030	0.030	0.030
4.320	4.320	4.320	4.320
-29.40	-29.40	-29.40	-29.40
0.300	0.300	0.300	0.300
0.0070	0.0070	0.0070	0.0070
6.135	6.135	6.135	6.135
77.0	69.0	71.0	66.0
14.7	14.7	14.7	14.7
7.70	8.29	8.15	8.49
10.69	10.69	10.69	10.69
181.86	200.89	196.27	207.65

 

[TXChevy]

I looked at some more cams, mainly Howards and Lunati. Clay Smith doesn't list too much info. I listed my results below and will be focusing comparisons on the ones in green. I've still not gotten into the Comp Cams selections, maybe just me but I'm still sort of reluctant. I'm sure there's more out there, this is all in combination with a lot of reading lol.

In all cases the data is for 0 degree install.

HR Crower 01400 1700-4500 rpm
LCA = 112, lift = Int .555, Exh .555
Adv Dur = Int 264/Exh 272, ICA = 112
Dur @ .050 = Int 205/Exh 213
-15d overlap @ .050, 44d overlap @.006
.006 EBBDC = 68, EATDC = 24
.006 IBTDC = 20, IABDC = 64
.050 EBBDC = 38.5, EATDC = -5.5
.050 IBTDC = -9.5, IABDC = 34.5

HR Crower 01403 2330-5100 rpm
LCA = 110, lift = Int .563 Exh .586
Adv Dur = Int 287/Exh 296, ICA = 110
Dur @ .050 = Int 205/Exh 213
-11d overlap @ .050, 71.5d overlap @.006
.006 EBBDC = 78, EATDC = 38
.006 IBTDC = 33.5, IABDC = 73.5
.050 EBBDC = 36.5, EATDC = -3.5
.050 IBTDC = -7.5, IABDC = 32.5

HR Crower 01402 2300-5000 rpm
LCA = 110, lift = Int .540 Exh .563
Adv Dur = Int 278/Exh 286, ICA = 110
Dur @ .050 = Int 222/Exh 229
-11d overlap @ .050, 62d overlap @.006
.006 EBBDC = 73, EATDC = 33
.006 IBTDC = 29, IABDC = 69
.050 EBBDC = 44.5, EATDC = 4.5
.050 IBTDC = 1, IABDC = 41

HR Crower 01401 1850-4600 rpm
LCA = 112, lift = Int .512 Exh .540
Adv Dur = Int 276/Exh 282, ICA = 112
Dur @ .050 = Int 213/Exh 222
-11d overlap @ .050, 62d overlap @.006
.006 EBBDC = 73, EATDC = 29
.006 IBTDC = 26, IABDC = 70
.050 EBBDC = 43, EATDC = -1
.050 IBTDC = -5.5, IABDC = 38.5

Crower 01400	Crower 01403	Crower 01402	Crower 01401
4.280	4.280	4.280	4.280
4.000	4.000	4.000	4.000
116.0	116.0	116.0	116.0
0.014	0.014	0.014	0.014
0.030	0.030	0.030	0.030
4.320	4.320	4.320	4.320
-29.40	-29.40	-29.40	-29.40
0.300	0.300	0.300	0.300
0.0070	0.0070	0.0070	0.0070
6.135	6.135	6.135	6.135
77.0	73.5	69.0	70.0
14.7	14.7	14.7	14.7
7.70	7.97	8.29	8.22
10.69	10.69	10.69	10.69
181.86	190.36	200.89	198.59

Clay Smith and Lunati:

HR Clay Smith 160-3101 5700 max rpm
LCA = 109, lift = Int .590 Exh .570
Adv Dur = Int 288/Exh 300, ICA = 109
Dur @ .050 = Int 229/Exh 241
17d overlap @ .050, 76d overlap @.006
.006 EBBDC = 79, EATDC = 41
.006 IBTDC = 35, IABDC = 73
.050 EBBDC = 49.5, EATDC = 11.5
.050 IBTDC = 5.5, IABDC = 43.5

HR Lunati 20110120 1600-5600 rpm
LCA = 112, lift = Int .570 Exh .570
Adv Dur = Int 276/Exh 286, ICA = 112
Dur @ .050 = Int 218/Exh 228
17d overlap @ .050, 57d overlap @.006
.006 EBBDC = 75, EATDC = 31
.006 IBTDC = 26, IABDC = 70
.050 EBBDC = 46, EATDC = 2
.050 IBTDC = -3, IABDC = 41

HR Lunati 20110548 1800-5200 rpm
LCA = 110, lift = Int .535 Exh .545
Adv Dur = Int 287/Exh 298, ICA = 110
Dur @ .050 = Int 220/Exh 230
5d overlap @ .050, 72.5d overlap @.006
.006 EBBDC = 79, EATDC = 39
.006 IBTDC = 33.5, IABDC = 73.5
.050 EBBDC = 45, EATDC = 5
.050 IBTDC = 0, IABDC = 40

HR Lunati 20110711 1800-5500 rpm
LCA = 112, lift = Int .575 Exh .575
Adv Dur = Int 272/Exh 280, ICA = 112
Dur @ .050 = Int 221/Exh 229
1d overlap @ .050, 52d overlap @.006
.006 EBBDC = 72, EATDC = 28
.006 IBTDC = 24, IABDC = 68
.050 EBBDC = 46.5, EATDC = 2.5
.050 IBTDC = -1.5, IABDC = 42.5

Clay Smith 160-3101	Lunati 20110120	Lunati 20110548	Lunati 20110711
4.280	4.280	4.280	4.280
4.000	4.000	4.000	4.000
116.0	116.0	116.0	116.0
0.014	0.014	0.014	0.014
0.030	0.030	0.030	0.030
4.320	4.320	4.320	4.320
-29.40	-29.40	-29.40	-29.40
0.300	0.300	0.300	0.300
0.0070	0.0070	0.0070	0.0070
6.135	6.135	6.135	6.135
73.0	70.0	73.5	68.0
14.7	14.7	14.7	14.7
8.00	8.22	7.97	8.36
10.69	10.69	10.69	10.69
191.55	198.59	190.36	203.17

 

[Indycars]

Well you just barely beat me to posting. This should throw another monkey wrench
into the mix.

I have an idea that would make it easy to dial in your DCR/SCR to any camshaft you pick
and shouldn't cost much. Since your pistons have a dome of a 29.4cc volume, the machine
shop should be able to take off any amount you want and since it's just a simple milling
operation the cost should be relatively low. You would just have to figure out how much
material to take off to reach the needed cc's. In my example 7.4 cc would be removed from
the dome, making it 22 cc. The IVC would be 67°, this would yield a DCR of 7.9. Since the
dome restricts flame travel, this is only going to help, although it will be small.

​

I did this simulation with a Howards Cam CL120243-12, and compared it to the
Crower 01295 since I thought it had the best curve so far.



I found a mistake I made on Sim09. I always copy a previous simulations so I don't have to recreate all the numbers the basic engine and I didn't catch the CR of 10.29 that should have been 10.69. This made Sim09 about 10 units higher than before.



I read over what you just posted, but let me know what you think about my idea of
milling the piston domes. You might want to check with the machine shop and get
an idea on the cost.

 

[Grumpy]

lets look over a few basic guide lines frequently used in selecting your best matched cam selection
with a 454 displacement and a 2.06 intake valve diameter,
thats 56.75 cubic inches, in each cylinder,
divided by 2.06= 27.5 on the LSA CHART
on the chart so you'll want a cam with something close to a 104-106 lca
(finding something tighter in a hydraulic roller with that modest duration, is generally rather difficult)
and pump gas with over about 93 octanes not all that easy to find consistently at a decent price.
Id also point out lift exceeding about .550 on a 225 duration at .050 lift, can cause durability issues

with the intended power band the truck gearing and trans stall, ,
your most likely looking for a cam in the lower 220-225 duration at .050 lift, on that tight LCA
with basic 10:1 static compression, and a goal of a dynamic compression near 8:1 that also matches

related info

semi fool proof cam sellection

you can start with this, the SIX cam manufacturers POSTED OR LINKED BELOW that have proven to be dependable, the soft ware below might prove useful, so use it to get a base line INFO YOU NEED IF YOUR selecting the correct cam for YOUR combo FIRST!!>>>>>>ANY AND ALL CAM MANUFACTURERS WILL need...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

 

[Indycars]

lets look over a few basic guide lines frequently used in selecting your best matched cam selection
with a 454 displacement and a 2.06 intake valve diameter,
thats 56.75 cubic inches, in each cylinder,
divided by 2.06= 27.5 on the LSA CHART
on the chart so you'll want a cam with something close to a 104-106 lca

The chart shows more like 101° LCA at 27.5 CID/Valve Dia and David Vizard is all about racing,
so we have to take his chart as a very basic guideline when building a street performance
engine. Maybe that's why you are saying 104° to 106° ???

 

[Grumpy]

yes, I agree, thats what the chart shows, but for a street application thats a bit too tight ,the main concept, of the tighter LSA is maximizing cylinder scavenging efficiency in the peak power band, something you'll rarely spend any time in on that application (daily driver)
but you can certainly benefit from a tighter LSA than the typical 110-114 many street cams are ground with, where emissions and smooth idle
were the goal

 

[TXChevy]

The shop may be done with swapping the new rods onto my pistons - I'll need to check with them. I'm a bit reluctant to mill them but I understand why you're suggesting it. Let me see what they have to say.

I had looked at the charts in my reading thru the links that had been provided. I also wondered about that very low (to me) LSA based on Vizards chart, but the 104-106 number makes more sense based on the additional info you've provided. What's curious is that nobody I called came out with that number range, it was almost always in the 114 range and 4d advanced.

I'm going to digest the info here and focus on cams in the numbers that Grumpy gave. If I remember right did the lower LSA tend to move the power band higher?

In addition maybe I should look at Comp if only to see what their offerings may be.

And a repeat thanks for the often challenging info - it forces me to think things out differently than a preconceived notion.

Additional... it seems pretty tough to find a non-custom grind in the 106 LSA range. Rather than more looking at catalog ranges, I thought would it be easier to use the calculator to look at duration and LSA numbers to get to a decent DCR? It seemed to help streamline the process, meaning I could look at what number ranges gave an acceptable DCR and yet cam close to the lower LSA. Hope I explained that right.

Looking at this part of the worksheet, just some sample numbers I plugged in:

Valve Timing Events	Degrees	Change only the numbers in the dark blue box.
Intake Duration	290	Seat to Seat Timing Numbers
Exhaust Duration	294	Seat to Seat Timing Numbers
Lobe Separation Angle (LSA)	110	Distance in cam degrees between the intake and exhaust lobe centerlines
Advance / Retard	0	Use negative numbers when the camshaft is retarded.
Intake Open BTDC	35
Intake Valve Closing Angle (ABDC)	75	Use this number in "Compression Ratio Calculator" on page 1 for the "Intake Valve Closing Angle" on row 12.
Exhaust Open (BBDC)	77
Exhaust Close (ATDC)	37
Intake Centerline	110
Exhaust Centerline	110
Degrees Overlap	72

 

[Indycars]

I edited the CR for Sim09 and therefore the graph on post number 27 above. Both the original graph and the corrected graph are now shown.

 

[Indycars]

Additional... it seems pretty tough to find a non-custom grind in the 106 LSA range. Rather than more looking at catalog ranges, I thought would it be easier to use the calculator to look at duration and LSA numbers to get to a decent DCR? It seemed to help streamline the process, meaning I could look at what number ranges gave an acceptable DCR and yet cam close to the lower LSA. Hope I explained that right.

I'm having a bit of a hard time following how you are backing into the right cam ..... sorry !

Then you said, "DCR and yet cam close to the lower LSA". Is "cam" a misspelled word, did you
mean "came close" ?

BTW, I noticed that your graphics from my calculator look different than the actual spreadsheet
calculator. Especially above, others are not going to understand what you mean by "Change only
the numbers in the dark blue box."

Are you familiar with the Snipping Tool in Windows from 7 thru 10. Not sure about Windows 11. Just
draw a box around what you want to capture and then just paste into your post without saving first
or uploading. It's on your Clipboard, you can paste it into most any application. If it's big sometimes
the file size will stop you, but most of time it will be fine. It's how I get the graph from Dynomation
into Photoshop so I can annotate/label the graph.

This way it will look exactly like the Excel Spreadsheet and others might recognize it as so.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us...eenshots-00246869-1843-655f-f220-97299b865f6b
.

 

[Grumpy]

keep in mind most cam manufacturers use the wider lsa on cams they sell,
because it lowers emission's, smooths the idle and lower rpm power curve a bit,,
and helps efi meter fuel flow more precisely.(remember vacuum sensors hate reversion pulses)
tight lsa can also reduce mileage, very slightly if you are not spending most of your time in the ideal rpm/power band
but on the plus side tight lsa cams tend to produce better over all and average torque if the engine valves are a bit small for the displacement,
but not peak power

reading the provided links and sub linked info generally helps considerably
and every choice you make is a COMPROMISE in some area

Camshaft Shootout: Lobe-Separation Angle Tested and Explained

If the cylinder heads are the lungs of an engine, the camshaft is the brain. Lobe-Separation Angle Tested and Explained.

www.motortrend.com

calculating overlap and lsa, or lca etc.

First Id point out that nearly everyone occasionally confuses or at least makes the mistake of using the wrong abbreviation, (LSA, and LCA) these are terms, that are almost, at least in many discussions ,incorrectly used interchangeably which they are not. which they are not. Quote Reply...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

TECH QUICKIE: Camshaft Lobe Separation Angle And Power Relationship

Erson Cams, Doug Patton of Pro Line Race Engines, and Chuck Lawrence of Jon Kaase Racing Engines cover talking points on a camshaft's lobe separation angle.

www.enginelabs.com

http://www.cranecams.com.au/pdfs/MAY14-Lobe_separation_article.pdf

 

[TXChevy]

Then you said, "DCR and yet cam close to the lower LCA". Is "cam" a misspelled word, did you
mean "came close" ?

Yes! it was a typo.

I'm having a bit of a hard time following how you are backing into the right cam ..... sorry !

I should have done a better job of explaining. I gave more thought to fuel octane availability especially with what's happening right now. So the DCR/detonation factor has risen in significance for me, meaning that I believe I should stay under 8.0 DCR, even lower if possible. So I was playing with the calculator, looking at what combo of duration, LSA and timing yield the higher valve approach number, which factors into the lower DCR.

It's tougher to find a cam with the 106 LSA as most seem to be in the range that Grumpy noted:

keep in mind most cam manufacturers use the wider lsa on cams they sell,
because it lowers emission's, smooths the idle and lower rpm power curve a bit,,

So I think that realistically I may need to consider a compromise of LSA 108-110 in order to broaden my choices a bit more. I'd be ok with this as I'm ok with the hp/tq numbers so far on the simulation. My thought was to look at the calculator to get the "window" of LSA/duration that brings up the valve approach number, then use that as one factor in looking at cams, to help narrow my search window. I'm also looking at builds to see what somebody else has done while still realizing my heads are different etc.

And I'm absolutely guilty of mixing up LSA and LCA, as seen on the cam data I've posted. All those "LCA" need to be "LSA".

Thanks also for the Window snippet info. I had just grabbed a copy of the cells in the workbook, one of those cases where I know what I meant but maybe not everyone else did - thanks!

I'll also add something - I'm sure that others may also look at all these posts and think - just get the damn cam lol. But I think for many like me that understand the general stuff this sort of long look may be of benefit. For me, I like to know WHY I'm doing something. You gents are greatly appreciated for your help.

 

[Indycars]

It's tougher to find a cam with the 106 LSA as most seem to be in the range that Grumpy noted:

Maybe the cost is not too high to have a cam ground with the only difference being the
LSA. Can't hurt to ask.

Thanks also for the Window snippet info. I had just grabbed a copy of the cells in the workbook,

I always grab the row and column characters, then it's easy to ask about a value in a specific
cell. Also it becomes obvious that it's a spreadsheet.

I'll also add something - I'm sure that others may also look at all these posts and think - just get the damn cam lol. But I think for many like me that understand the general stuff this sort of long look may be of benefit. For me, I like to know WHY I'm doing something. You gents are greatly appreciated for your help.

Don't rush the decision for us anyway. I was so wrapped up in the simulations yesterday that I
completely forgot about lunch until I was 2 hours late eating. I learn much better when there is
a purpose for understanding the tech (like your project) as opposed to just reading and trying
to absorb the information for next time I might need it, could be years later.

I'm grateful that someone like you has come along and is asking all these great questions and is
not trying to rush thru the process so he can get his order placed next week !!! For me, it's just
as much about the journey/process of building the engine as driving it. It took me about 2 years
to build my engine. Click on the link just below my signature to see the detail I went to.

 

[TXChevy]

On Monday I'll call Clay Smith and Howards and ask about a custom grind. In the meantime I'm going to go back through different selections, but I'll consider LSA up to 110 due to availability.

I made a simple chart as a reminder to me when looking at cams, you already know this, but I need all the help I can get.
This is related to the DCR. I just took the overall duration numbers related to the LSA and IVCA, to get to a "max" DCR value (just under 8.00) and a "min" DCR value (which is just subjectively matched to the original Erson cam). When I look in a cam catalog, I will check LSA and advertised duration first to save time. Then I can look at .050 duration.
I'm sure there will be borderline selections and I can also give those some consideration. All numbers are based on straight up install.

Snippet Tool Engaged



I did look at your engine build early on and it gave me a lot of confidence and info about moving forward methodically. Not in a huge rush to put this engine together!

I had a question on the Erson cam that Grumpy had mentioned. It was 120204 which had a spec of LSA 114 and advertised duration of 286/294. This seems to conflict with the advisement of looking for a lower 106 LSA cam. Per the table above at that duration I'd be better off with a 110 LSA?

 

[Grumpy]

keep in mind that there's, almost always both,
components or parts that are easily off the shelf available ,
which is what most people who don't put much thought or research time into an engine build,
and parts that much more closely match , what your engine might benefit from,
the carefully calculated, and well matched , and in most cases probably less popular,
ideal cam timing, your engine might require!
the difference may not be huge but the combined result of carefully calculating and matching components,
tends to result in a noticeably better result.
thats why some guys cars, who take the effort to ask questions and learn to understand the options,
and why you select and use certain parts, vs just buy what's easily available,
just always seem to pull that extra car length ahead in the lights

example RICK asked questions and followed advice,
and he built his T-BUCKET, engine, to match that advice,
(keep in mind his car is not powered by a RACE ENGINE, just a decent daily driver SBC,
that takes advantage of the options available ,
and still remains streetable,

keep in mind I built the website to help people avoid making expensive mistakes
and learn what works and why it works.... and yes I was fed up with dealing with scammers at machine-shops
and clueless morons at speed shops,
that were only to happy to take your money for crap quality parts,
and those that do crap quality machine work.
I got damn tired of wasting cash and dealing with scammers so I decided ,
to help the members learn from my and other peoples mistakes and benefit from decades of successful; engine builds

read this link

TBucket Engine Project (Dart SHP)

It's time to get this party started! Last night I picked up some of my parts, the only thing left to come in, is the Mahle piston and rings. This is just the first order, mostly the things I need right now to get started. It's been over ten years since I've driven this car and I am SOOO ready to...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

ask him what would happen if he, had a long strait road and put the car in gear, and launched,
and held the throttle to the floor for 12 seconds
and remember if the goal was a RACE engine he could have rather easily had more than a hundred plus extra hp with minimal changes,
at the loss of some street driveable manors
Ive always preferred to build DURABLE AND DEPENDABLE engines,
and if that frequently resulted in the loss of a couple potential , at least on paper, peak hp,
well thats an easy choice,
Id rather finish every race and drive the car home, and to work with zero problems,
than be the fastest car once or twice, and spend the next 6-9 months and a wheelbarrow of cash,
replacing the broken parts. but that does not in any way suggest a slow combo.

 

[TXChevy]

I've been reading through the 153 pages of that TBucket build, lots of research and care about parts. I'm completely on board with dependability and durability. Not a ton of miles but this 454 ran great for 34 yrs. I built it in '87. The only "major" thing it needed was an intake gasket about 15 yrs ago. I'd much rather have that than the fastest.

But I still don't understand about that Erson cam per the LSA question.

By no means a complete search, because Summit doesn't carry every grind of each brand, but more of a test. I looked at all HR cams with 107-110 LSA and used the cam calculator to include DCR as a criteria.
I came up with Crower HR 01403, 2300-5500 rpm, adv 282/296, @.050 229/237, .563/.586, LSA 110, DCR = 7.97
I'd be curious to see this simulation vs my original cam.

I'm not rushing to buy this cam but does this look like it's starting to head down the right track?
I'll still be calling to ask about custom grinds.

 

[TXChevy]

Rick, perhaps 2 simulations alongside the original Erson?
One for the Crower cam just noted above and one for what I take to be the best specs?
Per the info recommended: LSA 106, dur @.050 225, lift .550. Overall dur I don't know, a guess at 298-302 range for a reasonable DCR?
Thank you!

PS I ran across a name I remembered, Ultradyne. They are owned now by Bullet Cams that will grind per your specs but I have no idea about core source or quality. What I did like was they had a master list on their site that included LSA ranges for each base grind, something I hadn't seen. Any experience with this brand?

I'm also going to contact Straub Tech about grind recommendation and their complete kit. Higher cost but when you add in everything piecemeal vs kit it doesn't seem to be excessive.