SELECTING 223 rem vs 7.62 x39 vs 308 win IN YOUR BASIC DEFENSIVE RIFLE

Discussion in 'Tactical & Black Rifles' started by Grumpy, Jun 7, 2016.

  1. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    Very good read-on sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs
    On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

    By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."
    Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

    One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

    "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

    Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

    I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

    "Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

    "Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

    If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

    Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

    But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

    The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

    Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

    Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

    The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

    Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

    Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

    Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

    There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

    Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

    Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

    There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

    Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

    If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

    For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

    I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

    Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

    Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

    It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

    Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

    Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

    Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

    And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

    "Baa."

    This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.


    -jim
     
  2. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member



    worth watching all the way through
     
  3. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member




    the liberals are scrambling
    to try desperately to avoid the U.S SUPREME COURT ,from
    permanently ruling on a B.S. restrictive law,
    they the liberals are scrambling to save what they passed in NYC .
    liberal democrats are trying to cram restrictions down peoples throats
    THE SAFE ACT
    they are finding the vast majority think the laws total b.s.

    from removing almost all restrictions the liberals want too impose

     
  4. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member


    I got a decent amount of laughs out of this spoof
     
  5. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

  6. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    I have several friends that own STEYR AUGs
    they all love them,
    personally I like the heavy barrel stainless M1A1 and the GALILI in 308 or 6.5mm caliber
    and the heavy barrel AR15 clones, and yeah, most rifles can be accurized and improved:D










     
  7. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

  8. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    one of my neighbors is not into hunting ,
    but he likes to spend a good deal of time at the local rifle range.
    his main concern is with ammo availability
    as most of you know, ammo prices and availability has recently been less than Ideal.

    so hes becoming rather interested in bullet casting and reloading for the first time.
    hes managed to find and purchase a 450 marlin caliber BLR, 60 empty cases and a brick of 1000 federal 215 primers
    and a 350 grain bullet mold for 458 caliber gas check bullets
    ,this bullet mold would be almost ideal for handloading a 45/70, 450 marlin, or 458 winchester rifle,
    I suggested he look for RL7 powder, or IMR4198, but varget, or imr 4895 or imr 3031 or imr 4064 will work just fine ,
    and I suggested he acquire as many more brass cases as he can locate,
    and a couple pounds of bees wax, and a .459 diam lube size die.
    and we will soon be starting to get him set up.
    selecting a rifle designed to work well with cast ,gas check bullets eliminates one significant component, or lack of in this case, from preventing reloading(bullets)
    the advantage of a rifle like this is CAST gas check bullets are very accurate and perform very well on either targets or game, bullets are rather easily made and thus are not difficult to acquire.
    there's nothing in NORTH America that a properly placed 350 grain hard cast bullet at about 1800 FPS won,t kill easily

    [​IMG]

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...you-cast-and-hunt-with-bullets-you-made.6802/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/the-458-caliber-rifles.4672/page-2#post-98876

    https://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_BLR_1895.htm

    https://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/blr.html

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bullet-lube.4835/#post-93579
    [​IMG]
    I would feel very well equipped holding a browning BLR in caliber 450 marlin, with a high quality scope
    [​IMG]
    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1320632047/nikon-prostaff-7-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-4-16x50mm-matte
    loaded with my choice of 405 grain bullet over 50 grains of IMR 3031 even facing a mad brown bear, and its certainly well proven elk medicine,
    those 405 grain bullets provide a decent shot with all the lethal power required, to take the fight out of anything that walks in north America


    450 marlin handloads.

    Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS) 250 Barnes XFN Hodgdon H-4198 57.0 2,288
    Remarks: 2.10 group
    300 Nosler Partition Accurate XMR-2015 60.0 1,970
    Remarks: 1.95 group
    300 Nosler Partition Accurate XMR-2015 62.0 2,091
    Remarks: 1.80 group
    300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 51.5 1,751
    Remarks: 2.25 group
    300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 53.0 1,869
    Remarks: 2.10 group
    300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 54.0 1,990
    Remarks: 1.90 group
    300 Barnes XFN Hodgdon H-4198 50.0 1,982
    Remarks: 1.65 group
    350 Hornady FP Hodgdon H-4198 48.5 1,842
    Remarks: 1.60 group
    350 Hornady FP Hodgdon Varget 59.0 1,770
    Remarks: 1.65 group
    350 Hornady FP Hodgdon Varget 61.0 1,821
    Remarks: 1.70 group
    350 Kodiak FP IMR IMR-3031 56.0 1,827
    Remarks: 1.55 group
    350 Kodiak FP Hodgdon H-335 60.0 1,872
    Remarks: 1.20 group
    400 Speer FN Hodgdon H-4895 56.0 1,773
    Remarks: 1.75 group
    405 Kodiak FP Hodgdon H-322 52.5 1,842
    Remarks: 1.50 group
    405 Magma cast IMR IMR-4198 32.0 1,332
    Remarks: 2.00 group
    415 RCBS cast GC Alliant RL-7 48.0 1,875
    Remarks: 1.80 group
    415 RCBS cast GC Alliant RL-7 50.0 1,960
    Remarks: 1.45 group

    300 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 38.7 1,928
    Remarks: start chg
    300 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 43.0 2,096
    Remarks: max chg
    405 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 36.0 1,716
    Remarks: start chg
    405 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 40.0 1,865
    Remarks: max chg
    300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 43.2 2,034
    Remarks: start chg
    300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 48.0 2,211
    Remarks: max chg
    300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 52.2 2,198
    Remarks: start chg
    300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 58.0 2,389
    Remarks: max chg
    300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 54.9 2,217
    Remarks: start chg
    300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 61.0 2,410
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load
    300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 58.1 2,226
    Remarks: start chg
    300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 64.5 2,420
    Remarks: max chg
    300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 60.3 2,214
    Remarks: start chg
    300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 67.0 2,407
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load
    300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 59.4 2,001
    Remarks: start chg
    300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 66.0 2,175
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load
    300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 56.7 2,034
    Remarks: start chg
    300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 63.0 2,211
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 39.4 1,813
    Remarks: start chg
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 43.8 1,971
    Remarks: max chg
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 46.1 1,919
    Remarks: start chg
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 51.2 2,086
    Remarks: max chg
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 50.0 2,030
    Remarks: start chg
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 55.5 2,207
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 55.8 2,067
    Remarks: start chg
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 62.0 2,247
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 55.8 2,010
    Remarks: start chg
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 62.0 2,185
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 54.9 1,892
    Remarks: start chg
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 61.0 2,057
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 55.8 1,982
    Remarks: start chg
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 62.0 2,154
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2700 55.8 1,719
    Remarks: start chg
    350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2700 62.0 1,869
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 36.9 1,688
    Remarks: start chg
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 41.0 1,835
    Remarks: max chg
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-1680 41.4 1,732
    Remarks: start chg
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-1680 46.0 1,883
    Remarks: max chg
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2015 47.3 1,883
    Remarks: start chg
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2015 52.5 2,047
    Remarks: max chg
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2230 49.9 1,877
    Remarks: start chg
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2230 55.4 2,040
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2460 54.0 1,909
    Remarks: start chg
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2460 60.0 2,075
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2495 49.5 1,689
    Remarks: start chg
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2495 55.0 1,836
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2520 53.1 1,875
    Remarks: start chg
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2520 59.0 2,038
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2700 53.1 1,620
    Remarks: start chg
    400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2700 59.0 1,761
    Remarks: max chg; compressed load


    300 Barnes XFN IMR IMR-3031 52.5 1,870
    Remarks: 35,000 psi; compressed powder charge
    300 Barnes XFN IMR IMR-4198 44.2 2,000
    Remarks: 39,000 psi
    300 Nosler Partition IMR IMR-3031 57.0 2,100
    Remarks: 35,000 psi; compressed powder charge
    350 Hornady IMR IMR-3031 56.0 2,030
    Remarks: 38,000 psi; compressed powder charge
    350 Hornady IMR IMR-4198 45.0 2,050
    Remarks: 40,000 psi
    400 Barnes Flat Nose IMR IMR-3031 50.8 1,860
    Remarks: 40,000 psi; compressed powder charge
    400 Remington soft point IMR IMR-3031 50.0 1,840
    Remarks: 40,000 psi; compressed powder charge (VERY ACCURATE)
    400 Barnes Flat Nose IMR IMR-4198 40.0 1,820
    Remarks: 40,000 psi


    if you want a good 450 marlin load try 50 grains of IMR 3031 under a 405 remington bullet and a 215 fed primer,
    its accurate and will kill anything in north America if you place your shots well,
    place your shots well and its very lethal
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2021

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