The Inevitable Build Thread

A

arlowf

Active Member
I hope this is where build threads go.

I came up with this after months of (sometimes painful) questions and reading. Mostly from grumpy threads and posts here, and a Facebook group where people set me straight.

My setup is this for daily street engine, 3200lb 700r4 with air conditioning and brake booster, edelbrock avs2 800. Dual plane intake manifold, edelbrock performer. 2.5 inch collector long tube header with 1 5/8 main pipes, mated to 2.5 inch free flow muffler exhaust.

Dart 200cc SHP Heads
Cam Info (Howard 110245-12)
LSA 112
Intake Centerline 108
Duration at 050 inch Lift:
225 int./231 exh.

Valve Lift: .500 int/.510 exhaust

1.6 Roller Rockers (to get that lift up, it needs to be at 550 for my heads ideally but there is no cam that combines everything I want perfectly)
2800 Stall Converter
12cc dished SpeedPro pistons.
Decked so pistons are .005 in the hole, with a thick gasket to get me the ideal quench for aluminum heads at around 10.2 compression.

This is the kit I am ordering with upgraded 6 inch rods (scat 7/16" stroker clearanced rods ). Internal balance crank plus they balance the rest of the assembly. ARP bolts on everything. Northern is really good about customizing and getting you exactly what you want. With my various upgrades the total will be closer to $1,900. Pistons are the weakest point in the build so I'm going to ask about forged options there, but I really like the 12cc dish size.

Auto Parts Catalog - Northern Auto Parts

Discover Northern Auto Parts' catalog for a wide range of car parts, including engine rebuild kits. Request your free catalog by mail or browse online.
www.northernautoparts.com www.northernautoparts.com


The only thing I haven't picked is my oil pan, oil pump, and water pump because I haven't researched those things yet. I know I'll be beating my oil pan with a hammer for stroker clearance.
 
Last edited:
www.speedwaymotors.com

Moroso 21324 Circle Track Oil Pan w/ One Piece Rear Main Seal & Plug

Now you can have a Moroso oil pan for an affordable price. It features trap doors for oil control, removable windage tray, built-in crank scraper and accepts up to 3.800" stroke with steel rods. It's 7-1/2" deep, 11" wide and fits 78-87 Metric chassis and Camaro stubs. Fits small block Chevy...
www.speedwaymotors.com www.speedwaymotors.com

whats a windage tray do?

"OK GRUMPYVETTE< I have dumb question? What is a windage tray and whats it for?" windage trays don,t provide a huge boost in horse power, the purpose is mostly in providing much improved oil control, thus they can, if properly designed provide a much more consistent oil supply, and enhanced...
garage.grumpysperformance.com

The Truth and only the Truth: Oil PUMPS

OMG I cannot get the truth from even the home office of some companies. Now I need an honest answer to the latest stuff I was just told. I was told I want a 25% higher volume and to run a stock pressure spring. That this will make for higher low RPM pressure and to run the normal pressure...
garage.grumpysperformance.com

Testing High Volume Vs Standard Chevy Oil Pumps

after reading all the posted info , you would more than likely avoid or skip the related links, so I posted them at the beginning so you at least realize, theres much more and useful info available https://www.cpperformance.com/products/Engine_Parts/valve-spring-oiler.htm btw if you don,t want...
garage.grumpysperformance.com

installing an oil pump pick-up tube

there's two ways ,...... you can use the correct tool, which is ADVISABLE! use this oil pump(link below) in most stock SBC builds, as it produces a 10% increase in oil volume and standard pressure which is just fine , but obviously check your bearing clearances and oil pump to oil pan floor...
garage.grumpysperformance.com

383, do you clearance the 350 block, machine the crank, or both?

I hate to start a new thread when it seems that grumpy has exhaustively covered EVERYTHING when it comes to blocks and engine buildings already on this site, but this is sort of a specific question: I have been following a step by step on prepping my block to become a 383 build, and I am...
garage.grumpysperformance.com

you may find the oil pan does not need mods,
shop carefully and ask questions before you buy
and be sure to get the matching oil pump and pick-up
OBVIOUSLY ASK IF THE OIL PAN FITS YOUR YEAR/ MODEL CAR BEFORE ORDERING
 
Last edited:
Does that Dart head have the 64cc or 72cc chamber ?

What octane gasoline are you planning on using ?
.
 
64cc and pump gas. 92 octane.
The heads actually can flow better with more lift but not at the rpm number my cam tops out at/my driving will support. Meaning my lift isn't quite as high as it could be buts irrelevant with my foot and that cam stopping it at 5,300 rpm.

Edit: I may have a problem with my cam I selected: people are telling me I have to have a small base circle cam for a stroker. Is that true? That seems very limiting.
 
Last edited:
This is the boat the oil pan has to fit. An 86 Monte Carlo. My daily driver (it has a smog 350 Vortec in it right now that I had swapped in, like 270 HP maybe).

C4D05EC6-CACA-4D6F-A701-B2139662CCE1.jpeg4079F5BF-535A-437F-86A9-1043C100B07A.jpeg
 
My machine shop guy is telling me I'll definitely need a small base circle cam; everyone else is saying I'll be fine with these special 6" scat rods. I emailed Howard, they weren't much help. I wish they listed sizes on their cams somewhere.
I think I'm just going to change it then measure and make sure I have at least .040 at the two points the cams like to touch (number 2 and 7). What I've read is that it used to be in the past that you had to have a .900 reduced base circle cam to clear the connecting rods, but then when you got the smaller cam it made it more flexible so the valve action wasn't too great but nowadays with the new style rods it's not a problem; you can use a standard thicker camshaft it doesn't flex..
 
what you stated is pretty much true, some of the newer stroker rods do in most cases let you avoid the use of a smaller base circle cam, but because there's dozens of different connecting rod designs and different types of rods and rod bolts clearances vary a good deal,
as alway you'll need to check & verify the clearances, once the cam is degreed in, and rods are installed in your particular engine.
68.jpg

www.chevydiy.com

Big-Inch Chevy Small-Block Cheat Sheet: Connecting Rods

Big-Inch Chevy Small-Block Cheat Sheet: Connecting Rods- Step by Step How-To Instructions, Images, Examples, and Checklists
www.chevydiy.com www.chevydiy.com

www.chevydiy.com

Chevy Small Block Cranks, Rods, and Piston Guide

Chevy Small Block Cranks, Rods, and Piston Guide- How to Build Max Performance Chevy Small Blocks on a Budget
www.chevydiy.com www.chevydiy.com

www.motortrend.com

383 Stroker Small Block Chevy - Car Craft Magazine

A 383 Stroker Small Block Chevy is analyzed, assembled and dynoed. Follow along and get every fact and trick you wanted to know about a 383 build. - Car Craft Magazine
www.motortrend.com www.motortrend.com

should you re-use stock connecting rods?

I get asked all the time, "should you re-use those stock rods, when I rebuild my 350 or when I build my 383 stroker" or "Ive got a 325hp 396 BBC,Im rebuilding, should I upgrade or rebuild the connecting rods" most sbc and many BBC stock rods are designed to be cheap, and dependable in engines...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
 
Last edited:
From my experience you will be pretty close to the point of detonation with a Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) of 8.05, but I think you should be OK. I used a gasket thickness of.035" to give you a quench distance of .040". What was you plan here???

Also Dynomation calculated your Intake Valve Closing (IVC) angle to be 67°. Do you have documentation telling you what this number is? This would be if you installed the cam dot-to-dot, but you could also retard it 2° and your IVC would be 69°. and a DCR of 7.92.


1690987161728.png
 
Grumpy said:
what you stated is pretty much true, some of the newer stroker rods do in most cases let you avoid the use of a smaller base circle cam, but because there's dozens of different connecting rod designs and different types of rods and rod bolts clearances vary a good deal,
as alway you'll need to check & verify the clearances, once the cam is degreed in, and rods are installed in your particular engine.
Click to expand...

Grumpy, I have more information that may help others who find this thread.
All howard cams apparently can be ordered as a small circle cam. Meaning the exact same profile, somehow as a small circle cam. I don't understand that exactly, but all I had to do was add an "S" to the part number and I can order the same exact cam as a small circle cam.
I'm going to do that, just to have that extra clearance between the Cam and journal; machine shop guy will be happy.
 
Indycars said:
From my experience you will be pretty close to the point of detonation with a Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) of 8.05, but I think you should be OK. I used a gasket thickness of.035" to give you a quench distance of .040". What was you plan here???

Also Dynomation calculated your Intake Valve Closing (IVC) angle to be 67°. Do you have documentation telling you what this number is? This would be if you installed the cam dot-to-dot, but you could also retard it 2° and your IVC would be 69°. and a DCR of 7.92.


View attachment 17994
Click to expand...

My plan was to use this 1094 thin gasket , but I am just now reading bad things about it on freshly decked blocks; so looks like I'm going to have to change my "in the hole" number and go with a different thicker gasket. My dynamic compression would have been higher with a .015 gasket, that was my plan there. To be completely transparent though, I didn't realize it was "THAT" low. I thought I was good to go with my static compression being where it was and somehow thought my DCR was at 8.2. I was apparently wrong. I want 8.4 DCR :( Remember these are aluminum heads so even 8.5 DCR would be fine on 92 octane pump gas. I don't agree, probably because of my ignorance, that a 8.0 DCR is going to cause detonation because I thought the safe range was 7.6-8.5 on the street.


So,
I'll use this thicker copper ring gasket instead
That's the new plan for the gasket. As far as where I need to have the piston/deck sit to have better static compression and maintain a good quench, that's going to take me a while to figure out now as want Quench right at .040 :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The 1094 gasket has certain deck finish requirements and wants a pretty smooth finish. The machine shop should be able to meet it though and if you spray the gasket with copper coat, it will help deal with a slightly rougher surface finish.

I'd go with a standard base circle cam on a 383. Buy it from Summit and get it installed quickly and carefully so you can return it and get a reduced base circle cam ONLY IF a standard base circle won't fit. You don't have that much lift nor that tight of a lobe center that I'd think that a "stroker rod"'s extra clearance would necessitate a small base circle cam. (People make 3.875" strokes work with 6" rods and standard base circles with the right rod.)

There's hyd cams that will get you more lift, but when you start to get into hydraulic rollers that look more and more like solid roller cams you need really good short travel lifters ($$$) and then you should upgrade the rocker studs to 7/16" (probably should anyway), you need springs with more spring pressure, then the floppy stock SBC pushrods become more of an issue, too -and the costs to support those aggressive lobes with any kind of reliability start to go up quickly.

(I've got .600" lift on a 272 adv duration cam and it got expensive quickly).



Checkout ChampPans for VERY reasonably priced oil pan options. You can also checkout the Summit and Jegs branded pans as they're also really good value pans.

IMO, the Melling SharkTooth oil pumps (with the standard pressure spring) are worth checking out as they get rid of pulsations through the oil pump shaft that can mess with ignition timing and they provide a small increase in oil pressure and flow vs. stock to keep those hyd lifters fed and hopefully not bleeding down. (ChampPans will sell you a bolt on oil pickup that works with the Melling ST pumps and provide proper clearance to the bottom of the pan making the whole setup pretty simple.)


Adam
 
maintain a good quench, that's going to take me a while to figure out now as want Quench right at .040 :)
Click to expand...
yeah tighter quench than .040 is going to cause a lot more problems than you need to deal with,
, most likely starting with piston to valve clearances
 
Waiting on Rick/Indy or someone to come back and help me understand why a 8.0-8.2 dynamic compression ratio is risky (detonation) on 92 pump gas with aluminum heads. The static of 10.2 should be fine with aluminum heads, and I need compression of close to 10 on that stroker for low rpm power/torque.


Grumpy said:
yeah tighter quench than .040 is going to cause a lot more problems than you need to deal with,
, most likely starting with piston to valve clearances
Click to expand...
 
Until the intake valve closes (DCR) the piston is not compressing anything ...... period!!! So the Static Compression Ratio (SCR) is a poor indicator of how the gasoline is going to react in your engine.

My experience is with just my engine. I had a DCR of 8.27 with limited detonation. I tried several things, but it wasn't until I retarded the camshaft 3.5° and reached a DCR of 8.02 that the detonation went away.

Now you have to things going for you .....
1.) A smaller chamber at 64cc, mine was 70cc.
2.) You have 92 octane available, I only have 91 octane.

The chart below is only a reference and cannot provide black & white answers. But going by the chart if you don't exceed 180°F engine temp, then about a DCR of 8.1 should be OK.

I figured it was better to say something now, then wait until you had a problem. This way you get to do some research and decide before or be aware that just maybe you might need to retard the cam timing.

Like I said in my post above, I think you will be OK.

BTW, you should check my numbers for accuracy in the DCR calculations, especially the IVC !!!
Rows 9 & 10 can be disregarded as they make very little difference.

calculate required octane for compression ratio

What else influences your car's octane requirements? IF YOU DON,T LIKE READING SUB-LINKS, AND LOOKING AT CHARTS , AND DOING A BIT OF MATH 'AND INDIVIDUAL CALCULATIONS, YOUR UN-LIKELY TO BENEFIT FROM MOST OF THE THREADS, ON THIS WEB SITE! LIKE IN MOST AREAS ITS KNOWLEDGE AND THE ABILITY TO THINK...
garage.grumpysperformance.com

DCR_vs_OctaneRequirements.jpg
 
Good quench, cold intake air temps (a CAI is VERY useful), and cold coolant temps help keep detonation at bay when you're pushing the DCR to your fuel's octane limits. If you're going with hypereutectic pistons or a high-silicon forged piston alloy, then you won't see as much increased wear from cooler coolant temps. (You still don't want a thermostat lower than 180F, though.).

There's a David Vizard quote that says that every 8 deg F decrease in intake air temps is an equivalent to a 0.5 increase in fuel octane (RON/MON -US octane system).

You asked about a water pump, IMO, there's no better value-for-the-performance SBC water pump than the Stewart Stage 1 pumps for your application. Amazon tends to have the best pricing on them. Combine the Stewart Stage 1 pump with with EMP-Stewart 180F high flow thermostat. If you want to step up from there, the Stage 2 aluminum Stewart pumps are better still but don't come with heater core hose fitting provisions, nor do they have the extra passenger side bypass hole, which is good for even temperatures, but then you want to install a plug in that hole in your block if you have an early SBC with it. The later Vortec blocks don't have that provision anyway, so you'd want a Stage 2 pump in that case. (There's a price-jump from Stage1 to Stage2 because of both aluminum and because Stewart designs and has the case casting of the Stage 2 and up pumps made, the Stage1 pumps use an ultra-common Chinese manufacturer's (who makes MANY oem water pumps) case, but with Stewart impellers.

[edit] I worded the previous paragraph in a confusing way: my point on the early SBC bypass holes: they make the temps cylinder-to-cylinder LESS even and most of the "bypass" happens only on Cylinder 2; this is "stealing coolant from Peter (all the cylinders other than #2) to pay Paul (Cylinder #2) when cylinder 2 was already one of the coolest two cylinders with the GEN1 OEM cooling system. IMO, getting rid of the bypass is a slight improvement (GM seems to agree with that as the late SBC vortec cooling design got rid of the bypass). -You need / want some kind of bypass and the EMP -Stewart thermostats including bypass holes that recirculate some coolant through the entire engine (and radiator) even when the thermostat is closed, it'll slightly decrease warmup times vs. the gen1 factory or vortec factory design.

Never go with an OEM-style stamped impeller water pump in a performance app (especially when the Stewart Stage1 pumps are so reasonable cost-wise). Performance pumps have tigher tolerances and cast, cast+cnc, or sometimes billet CFD-designed impellers that will flow more, create more pressure, and require less HP to turn. If on-the-street and towing cooling is important (with your DCR it should be), you really don't want to use an underdriven pulley, nor a race-focused water pump, which is going to trade reduced low rpm flow for increased high rpm flow. (The impeller designs have to be optimized for a certain RPM, a pump that flows really well at lower rpms (FlowCooler) will end up causing cavitation at higher rpms - the pumps have to be designed kind of like intake air speeds with a maximum coolant flow "speed limit" in mind.)


Adam
 
Last edited:
Indycars said:
Until the intake valve closes (DCR) the piston is not compressing anything ...... period!!! So the Static Compression Ratio (SCR) is a poor indicator of how the gasoline is going to react in your engine.

My experience is with just my engine. I had a DCR of 8.27 with limited detonation. I tried several things, but it wasn't until I retarded the camshaft 3.5° and reached a DCR of 8.02 that the detonation went away.

Now you have to things going for you .....
1.) A smaller chamber at 64cc, mine was 70cc.
2.) You have 92 octane available, I only have 91 octane.

The chart below is only a reference and cannot provide black & white answers. But going by the chart if you don't exceed 180°F engine temp, then about a DCR of 8.1 should be OK.

I figured it was better to say something now, then wait until you had a problem. This way you get to do some research and decide before or be aware that just maybe you might need to retard the cam timing.

Like I said in my post above, I think you will be OK.

BTW, you should check my numbers for accuracy in the DCR calculations, especially the IVC !!!
Rows 9 & 10 can be disregarded as they make very little difference.

calculate required octane for compression ratio

What else influences your car's octane requirements? IF YOU DON,T LIKE READING SUB-LINKS, AND LOOKING AT CHARTS , AND DOING A BIT OF MATH 'AND INDIVIDUAL CALCULATIONS, YOUR UN-LIKELY TO BENEFIT FROM MOST OF THE THREADS, ON THIS WEB SITE! LIKE IN MOST AREAS ITS KNOWLEDGE AND THE ABILITY TO THINK...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
Click to expand...

Thank you for taking your time and warning me. I read soooo many threads saying the good street pump gas range was 7.5 to 8.5. Now i'm worried. It's hard to get an engine to run at 180 around town in stop and go traffic. My 350 with a 4 core radiator and 180 thermostat and electric high cfm fans does 190-200 in the summer, 180 in the cooler months. So...
What can I do about this to be safe? I've never heard "static compression doesn't matter" before. Lets say I'm going to run 91 pump gas everything. What's do I need to change about my quench/deck height/pistons to stay "higher compression" but get my DCR down just a little to 7.9-8.0ish? Just go with a bigger dish piston? That seems like that'd be overkill. Increase deck to piston clearance to .015?

Definitely need some help here. I wonder what Grumpy's corvette is running DCR-wise since he has almost the same setup and is at 10+ static compression.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top