The Inevitable Build Thread

[arlowf]

You didn't believe the calculation that showed your SCR to be 10.24 in post #10 ??? They claim 10.5, but with what chamber size? They don't know your engine specs.

You can go with the 5cc pistons, but you will have to change the combustion chamber size. Your Dart SHP heads also come in a 72cc version. And if needed you might need to mill them to reduce the chamber a few CC's. Below is Dart's milling instruction for your heads.

Milling:
Min. 58cc = .060” (.0065” = 1cc) Flat Mill

Or you can stay with your original plan and use the 12cc dished pistons. Just one comment, forged piston are better able to withstand a more pronounced detonation and for a longer time.

Don't buy anything until after the simulations are complete!!!, You might be surprised at what is learned and the changes that are still to come with the camshaft !!!

In the Excel table below, you will notice the red numbers. If a number from the previous engine changed, then it's in RED. If you have Excel you can do your own calculations, use the link below.

https://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/dynamic-static-comp-ratio-cranking-pressure-calculator.4458/

I've actually been using that spreadsheet. I'll post up my results (screenshot of your calculator) when I've settled on everything. The point I want to get to is where we are just running simulations with different cams, and everything else left the same.
P.S. I'm also 30 pages into your massive build thread. It's the best one I've ever seen. You do everything, with pictures. It's a bit daunting, i'll admit, because of the amount of work you put in versus what normal humans do and get engines that run on youtube. I can't wait to get everything in and start mimicking what you did, like port matching the oil pump and taking sharp edges off of the various components.

 

[Indycars]

I've actually been using that spreadsheet. I'll post up my results (screenshot of your calculator) when I've settled on everything. The point I want to get to is where we are just running simulations with different cams, and everything else left the same.

Very good, I'm with you there!!! Get everything figured out except for the cam first. Although the chamber size could change in the heads depending on the camshaft IVC.

I'm also 30 pages into your massive build thread.

You will be happy to know that the engine build and startup takes place in the first 65 pages After that is still some good stuff like tuning.
.

 

[arlowf]

Indy



Bore & Stroke: 4.030 3.75

Displacement: 383 cubic inches

Rod Length: 6 inches

Heads Make/Model with flow numbers: Aluminum 195cc AFR Enforcer Heads

Combustion Chamber Size in CC’s: 64cc

Dome Volume: 0

Valve Relief Volume: +12 (Dished, Hypereutectic Aluminum)

Deck Height: (Piston to Block Surface) .010

Head Gasket Bore: 4.100

Head Gasket Thickness: .028

Decked so .01 in the hole. This puts my total quench at .038.

Gasket:

Chevrolet Performance 10105117 Chevrolet Performance Composition Head Gaskets | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Chevrolet Performance Composition Head Gaskets with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Head Gaskets at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

Valve Sizes Intake/Exhaust: Exh 1.6, Intake 2.02

Intake Manifold Type: Dual Plane

Manufacture/Model #: Edelbrock Performer RPM

Carburetor Size or EFI (CFM): 800 CFM Edelbrock AVS2; which youtubers claim is more like a 600 Holley

Header Tube Diameter: 1-5/8", 3” Collector, 2.5 inch exhaust

Cam Part Number: Howard 110245-12

Rocker Ratio - Intake/Exhaust: 1.6/1.6

Cam Installed Retarded 2 degrees

Fuel Used: Gasoline, 91 Octane

 

[Indycars]

Lookin good !!!

I think your IVC is actually 69° if you are retarding the cam 2° from 4° advanced. This makes the DCR 7.96, the SCR is unchanged at 10.3.

I should have a simulation run tomorrow early afternoon.

 

[arlowf]

Lookin good !!!

I think your IVC is actually 69° if you are retarding the cam 2° from 4° advanced. This makes the DCR 7.96, the SCR is unchanged at 10.3.

I should have a simulation run tomorrow early afternoon.

Your fancy calculator couldn't do everything for me

 

[NewbVetteGuy]

DNA Racing, Assault Racing, Skip White NKB, FlowTek, AFR Enforcers -they're all Chinese-cast clones of the Dart 200cc head and significantly cheaper. The FlowTeks will save you quite a bit over the AFR enforcers, and last I checked used US-made valvetrain equipment, if that's the route you want to go.

IMHO, get the SCR and quench what you want it, and then just adjust the DCR by purchasing a bit more adv/ seat-to-seat duration on your cam to get the DCR where you want it.

You've got small ish / fast long-tube headers to help evacuate the cylinder, then just focus on cold air and coolish coolant and see whether it avoids pinging or not. If it doesn't, pull a dash of timing, or add a splash of good octane booster in hot weather (When it's most likely to ping), or fatten up the mixture OR retard the cam. (Adjustableing timing set and 2 piece timing cover will make it WAAY easier.)

 

[Indycars]

OK, here is your first Sim and I thru in another one so you can see how we're able to compare different engines on the same graph. We can do this for up to 4 engines, but I suggest holding it to only 3 otherwise it gets too busy and confusing.

I included a PDF report that should have all the numbers that I had to input into Dynomation. I implore you to look this over very closely to make sure I have done it correctly. If it's not correct, then that mistake(s) will be copied thru ALL THE OTHER SIMS!!!

Is there another cam you want to see ???



.

 

[Grumpy]

RICK? COULD YOU HUMOR AN OLD GEEZER AND OVERLAY THIS RESULT ON THE PREVIOUS DYNO CHART??
What Id like to see is what difference the 210cc profiler heads, a dart single plane intake
,https://www.summitracing.com/search...ch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=Dart..42411000

and the CRANE 119661 cam used with 1.6:1 roller rockers,
open long tube heads,
make on that same software dyno

Crane Cams 119661 Crane Hydraulic Roller Camshafts | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Crane Hydraulic Roller Camshafts with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Camshafts at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

210cc All American Aluminum 23° SBC Racing Heads, Assembled, Angle Plu

Producer and Seller of aluminum aftermarket cylinder heads, intake manifolds and engine accessories. Specializing in big block chevy ,small block chevy, big block ford and small block ford.

www.profilerperformance.com

 

[NewbVetteGuy]

Yes, I can still remember my best time from the 1970's, so I understand your memory comment. They didn't have 60 foot times back then.

Drag strips didn't have 60' times in the 1970s?!? Wow, mind blown!
Seems like a dramatic improvement to have added those.

No wonder in the 1970's everyone subscribed to the "an engine's just an air pump, make everything BIGGER to make MOHR POWA!", philosophy.
Reversion-factory cams and surging sure SOUNDS COOL, as long as it's on someone else's car and I don't have to drive it...

Adam

 

[arlowf]

DNA Racing, Assault Racing, Skip White NKB, FlowTek, AFR Enforcers -they're all Chinese-cast clones of the Dart 200cc head and significantly cheaper. The FlowTeks will save you quite a bit over the AFR enforcers, and last I checked used US-made valvetrain equipment, if that's the route you want to go.

IMHO, get the SCR and quench what you want it, and then just adjust the DCR by purchasing a bit more adv/ seat-to-seat duration on your cam to get the DCR where you want it.

You've got small ish / fast long-tube headers to help evacuate the cylinder, then just focus on cold air and coolish coolant and see whether it avoids pinging or not. If it doesn't, pull a dash of timing, or add a splash of good octane booster in hot weather (When it's most likely to ping), or fatten up the mixture OR retard the cam. (Adjustableing timing set and 2 piece timing cover will make it WAAY easier.)

I love this advice; it's dumbed down for me.

When you say fatten up the mixture does that mean to increase the amount of gas (not air) going in? So like up the jet size or something on the carb?
I am definitely getting adjustable timing set and two piece cover.
As far as octane booster in the summer, can I use jet (aircraft) fuel mixed into 91 (like a gallon of jet for 10 gallons of 91) to achieve this? I can get ahold of that or e85 locally.

Grumpy talked me out of the cheaper clones, said go AFR for quality. I had DNA as an option because I thought the same thing.

 

[Indycars]

RICK? COULD YOU HUMOR AN OLD GEEZER AND OVERLAY THIS RESULT ON THE PREVIOUS DYNO CHART??

Sure, it will be tomorrow.

 

[arlowf]

I'm having trouble finding the pdf you mentioned. Is it attached somewhere?
I'd like to see that Crane 119661 cam with the 1.6 rockers (same as the howard) just like grumpy mentioned.

It's going to take me a bit to understand what i'm looking at here (as in what the howard is being compared to).

OK, here is your first Sim and I thru in another one so you can see how we're able to compare different engines on the same graph. We can do this for up to 4 engines, but I suggest holding it to only 3 otherwise it gets too busy and confusing.

I included a PDF report that should have all the numbers that I had to input into Dynomation. I implore you to look this over very closely to make sure I have done it correctly. If it's not correct, then that mistake(s) will be copied thru ALL THE OTHER SIMS!!!

Is there another cam you want to see ???


View attachment 18022
.

 

[NewbVetteGuy]

@Grumpy On a 383, wouldn't he want the 2.02" or at most 2.050" intake valve vs. the 2.080" valve on the Profiler 210cc?
-I haven't seen the flow data for the 2.02 or 2.05" valves published by Profiler, but Chad Speier's probably got it...

The Profiler heads have gone up the most of any SBC head that I've seen in the past 2 1/2 years, BUT Summit still sells the 2.02" intake valve, angle plug versions for $631, which is a STEAL in 2023 prices: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pfh-176-21-34-93


The big downside is the raised exhaust ports and the non-raised / non-centered exhaust bolt holes. I can say this from 100% first-hand experience after spending an ungodly amount of time porting my 1 5/8" headers to match. -I'm not sure I have enough material to get them to seal now, honestly...

-Anyone who's going to go with the raised height version of the Profiler needs to go with a minimum 1 3/4" header. A 1 5/8" will not fit properly without major grinding AND welding in the stock bolt holes and then drilling new holes lower down to make up for the headers not being centered on the ports. (Otherwise you're blocking the highest velocity air right on the top of the port and running it smack into the header flange.)


Chad Speier's given up on pissed-off customers dealing with the raised exhaust ports and he now only purchases Profiler heads with the revised standard height exhaust ports, for what that's worth.


Adam

 

[Grumpy]

as I've stated often, every choice you make involves your making several compromises
as to valve sizes,
Id be more concerned with potential clearance issues with valves to bore walls than and flow restriction issues with the larger valve diam.

yeah, raised exhaust ports will obviously work better with the larger 1.75" headers with exhaust flanges that are designed to match the heads
and a full 3" exhaust with an (X) pipe in the exhaust mounted about as close as practical behind the header collectors, yes you typically buy the proper matching exhaust flanges and build or modify existing headers to fit those heads and exhaust flanges, but you can make compromises
no one I know ever built their first few engines without making some less than ideal choices, its a learning process where in theory each successive engine build results in your making smarter choices, no one expects you to be perfect, what they do hope is that you learn as you progress and learn from previous mistakes made.(and ideally don't repeat them)
the key here is doing your in depth research, using experience, before opening your wallet and keeping notes,
on what you find works and what you find DID NOT WORK AS EXPECTED
are there bargains to be found? hell yes but there's far more over priced junk or dirt cheap junk pretending to be just as good as the big brand names, but most lower price vendors are using low quality parts, or skimping on machine work quality, and detailed inspection of tolerance's, so they can sell parts cheaper.

building an exhaust system for your car

you might want to read thru these threads and linked info first, yes IM well aware it may take several hours to do so but it will save your many more hours and hundreds of dollars to do it correctly and safely. Id bet 80% of the useful infos in the links and sub-links so take some time and...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

calculating header design

YES THE SUB LINK INFO IS WELL WORTH READING ALSO if your serious about maintaining good peak hp numbers use the calculators in the linked threads to actually calculate the ideal matched header dimensions, this is not a guessing game its strait physics and easily calculated to maximize exhaust...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

(X) or (H) PIPE

INSTALLING AN (X) PIPE IN THE EXHAUST ON A DUAL EXHAUST CAR Magnaflow sells them in stainless: https://www.magnaflow.com/products?partNumber=10782 Dynomax (aluminized): Dynomax 88328: X-Pipe Outer diameter: 3" | JEGS Flowtech (aluminized): Flowtech 53621: FlowTech Exhaust X-Pipe 3" | JEGS...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

building custom headers

theres a great deal of useful info in these links , and sub linked info so don,t skip over them without looking thru carefully, as theres years of experience to be gained yeah its amazing how everything costs ten times what you think it will and takes five times longer to do even at that...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

http://www.cosworthvega.com/ExhaustFabII/Exhaust_Fab_II.html

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165247&highlight=smurf

http://www.headerdesign.com/extras/resources.asp

http://www.stahlheaders.com/Lit_measurement_1.htm

http://www.ssheaders.com/header.htm

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~allan/fluids/page1/page1f.html

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~allan/fluids/page7/PipeLength/pipe.html

youll need this
http://www.kusashi.com/temperature.php?a=500&c=kels&d=fah&stage=results

http://stainlessheaders.com/

http://stainlessheaders.com/trans.htm

http://www.autoanything.com/exhausts-mufflers/65A2750A0A0.aspx

http://www.spdexhaust.com/

http://www.stans-headers.com/gm_flanges.htm

http://www.drgas.com/store/home.php

http://www.burnsstainless.com/

 

[NewbVetteGuy]

Grumpy talked me out of the cheaper clones, said go AFR for quality. I had DNA as an option because I thought the same thing.

Sounds like great advice, as always, from Grumpy. My inner cheap-ass gets me in trouble sometimes...

Eric Weingartner did a side-by-side look at the Assault Racing and the AFR Eliminator this spring (it's on YouTube) and he seemed to conclude that AFR had the teeniest, tiniest changes to the casting enough to CALL it different, but not have it meaningfully flow or pour different. (The AFR head has an extra bump in the bowl of the intake port that brings it down to 195cc vs. the 198cc of the other versions.

So you can even argue that you're getting maybe a slightly improved casting, if it helps justify the price jump. I'm sure the AFR comes with premium valve train hardware, as always, too.

 

[arlowf]

The way Grumpy was short and to the point with this recommendation of the AFR (which are double the price) over the other chinese copies is what made it a "not for discussion or consideration" point for me. If someone is that matter of fact with that much experience, I just take the advise. And trust me, $600 savings on going with another brand (DNA or FlowTek) was very appealing when on paper they were the same.

I'm still not paying anymore than what AFR's cost though. I pay for other things, like air conditioning, in my ride so that my kids will ride with me happily to school every morning. This will never see a track or stop light race so I always need that to be kept front of mind.

That, and I am going to be setting timing and doing tuning based off youtube videos, so this thing not blowing up the first time it starts is important.

 

[Grumpy]

they may be very similar castings but the components, like valves, valve seats, springs spring seats, the installed height, valve keepers,
and retainers, being used in the heads assembly process and the care taken in doing the valve job MATERS
longer term durability maters more than low initial price
little stuff you might not think mater much can fail and cause major damage, the difference in quality between low price retainers , or valve spring seats, and yes the cost to the vendor for better quality units might only be $30-$40 on a set of heads, but a few 6500 rpm pulls will let you know the difference rather quickly
a 29 cent part failing can cost you a total engine failure, as can improperly machined and clearanced parts

valve seat angles and air flow

valve seat angles and the actual angles cut on the valve edges them selfs and how you have the area under the valve in the port bowl area cut and blended has a marked effect on your engines air flow. When you drop off heads to be machined, its MANDATORY you are very clear and specific about what...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

sellecting valve springs, and setting up the valve train

How do you determine the spring pressure needed to keep the valves under control for a given lift, duration, and max rpm. It might take you several hours to read thru all the links and sub links but its time very well spent as it could save your engine from destruction and save you thousands of...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...u-buy-bare-or-assembled-heads.534/#post-81754

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/multi-angle-valve-job-related.3143/

ccing my heads

HELP I hope some can help me with a prob I am having. I started to cc my heads so i check all and found that they need to be ground. I have one at 64.3 so I started grinding one of them to be at 64.3 or there abouts. I ground a lot off and got a reading of 62 so I ground more off and came up...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

 

[Indycars]

I'm having trouble finding the pdf you mentioned. Is it attached somewhere?

I thought I drug two files over to my posts, but I guess not, Anyways it's there now, you will find it at the bottom of my post #48.

 

[Indycars]

RICK? COULD YOU HUMOR AN OLD GEEZER AND OVERLAY THIS RESULT ON THE PREVIOUS DYNO CHART??
What Id like to see is what difference the 210cc profiler heads, a dart single plane intake
,https://www.summitracing.com/search...ch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=Dart..42411000

and the CRANE 119661 cam used with 1.6:1 roller rockers,
open long tube heads,
make on that same software dyno

I also did a Sim03, the only difference from Sim02 is the dual plane Edelbrock RPM manifold.


.

 

[Grumpy]

sim #3 crane 119661, profiler and the dual plane intake looks to be the winner.
if Im reading it correctly it shows about 475 tq from 4000rpm-5000rpm, and maybe 467 hp at 6000rpm
VS
about 475 tq from 3500rpm-4500rpm,and maybe 430hp at 5500rpm

but theres near a 50ft lb and 75hp potential positive difference in power at 6000 rpm with that SIM #3 vs the howard 110245-12 cam

you have options, just think through your choices