Which would you choose?

[chromebumpers]

A 1970 recent rebuild with a few thousand miles, 455 Pontiac YH code, 4 barrel 360 Hp/480 torque or

A newly rebuilt zero miles (seller states), 1969 Pontiac 428 XF code 375 Hp/515 torque.

Both are the same cost, carb to pan assembled.

It's just not about picking the higher hp/tq motor. I'm not sure about a motor only 2 or 3 years in production Vs the 455 that over 1 million were made. I assume everything on the exterior is identical between these 2 engines and both fit exactly the same as in all Pontiac motors 326, 350, 389, 400, (421?) (428?) and 455.

Can anybody ad some information or comment.

 

[chromebumpers]

I guess answers follow the same as donations.

 

[Grumpy]

I generally spend 4-6 hours a day, nearly every day posting answers and info and there are several others putting in time answering questions also,and while I can,t even read or answer EVERY post I darn sure try and I find many times others have posted very good answers well before I even see the posts, at times.
If I was choosing between two engines like this, Id look at the two engines in question with a close inspection looking for corrosion damage, indicators of rough treatment or lack of care in storage, like obvious open exhaust ports or intake manifold openings showing rusty surfaces, I'd try turning the engine with a breaker bar with the plugs removed and feel for resistance that may indicate damaged bore or rings,, Id look over the valve train carefully looking for obvious wear,and looking for any previous repair work, Id look under valve covers and take the oil pan off if I could looking for coolant leaks sludge build-up , slack in the timing chain, wear on the distributor gears and rusty sludge in coolant passages, all indicators of either low infrequent maintenance or improper storage.
in an engine that old chances are fair that its corrosion that will be your major potential damage problem, if no obvious mechanical damage or wear is obvious.
the physical condition is critical and getting access to replacement parts, will be harder on much older engines, or low production number engines in any series in many cases. If both engines are very similar, the 455 and its larger displacement will always have a slight edge in resale value, as its both a bit more common and as a result better known and accepted as a performance platform.
but don,t discount the 428, I've built several and they can be very impressive
(example)
youll generally have far less problems finding parts for a 350 chevy sb than a rambler flat head 6 cylinder
I find the Quality of most of the answers I see posted is much higher than on many sites I visit also. as you may notice I will go back sometimes hours or even days later to add links and related info on threads to clear-up or make answers easy to understand
yes all the 326-455 pontiac v8 engines have very similar external appearance, and a good deal of motor mount interchangeability.
When it comes down to the basics is , that,we ALL tend to run into the same basic issue,
and thats the fact that we don,t have enough of the ready cash to dump into a project,
to just buy a complete engine. SO, we have to carefully plan how to allocate our limited finances.
now for a few basics.
your going to find your engines DISPLACEMENT , the CAM and CYLINDER HEADS ability to flow air,
the exhaust scavenging efficiency,the vehicles WEIGHT, and the DRIVE TRAIN GEARING,
has a good deal of effect on the car/truck performance.
the larger the displacement and the higher the compression ratio
(as long as the fuel octane will allow you too without running into detonation)
generally the LEAST expensive compromise, you may make, when you compare total cost vs available power,
will depend on what you have available ,
step back take a deep breath, and think logically, your not locked into using the current parts you have!
you might want to visit several local salvage yards and look for a deal on a complete basic engine,
if for example you could find a 396 BBC, a 383 mopar , a 460 ford or a 472 CADDY , in running and re-buildable condition,
for $500-$600 (which is not that hard in some areas)
yes we can easily show you how to build a kick ass 383, or 406,
but both options would cost more that rebuilding one of those,
if you bought the engine for under $600 and rebuilt it as your starting out with,
almost all the major components that might be re-usable
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...55-richard-wants-by-brian-r.11749/#post-55455

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/i-doubt-many-guys-notice-but.4900/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ge-yard-engine-just-some-info.3183/#post-9403

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/pontiac-motor-id.11472/#post-52773

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/some-pontiac-related-links.4125/#post-42598

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/pontiacs.10172/page-2

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ck-butt-pontiac-engine-combo.1472/#post-48277

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...tech-you-may-not-know.11663/page-2#post-55277

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-at-the-circle-track-suppliers-helps.10978/

 

[chromebumpers]

I was actually aiming for the ideology behind the two platforms not these two exact examples.
Taking a these 2 engines with nearly the same condition- being good to clean up, tune up and go. I can only find a near 1/2 lb. difference in compression between the 2 motors but there is a significant difference in the performance numbers. I'd like to know how high hp and torque reached at low rpm's can be good or bad for speed.

 

[chromebumpers]

I guess answers follow the same as donations.

Once again, I didn't mean you Grumpy - this is nowhere near referring to you. There are a lot of people here and you shouldn't be the only one to offer an answer or an opinion. When I said "I guess answers follow the same as donations" My inference was with the amount of people benefiting from this forum there should be more participation with both answers and donations. I tried a few ideas actually giving things away (if you remember ) and nothing came out of it. To site one example, Somebody we all know was here for a very long time and never helped with a dime even though he made money through connections and work on this forum. I'm to the point where I would gladly pay a buck or 2 for any answer I need, but why does the burden have to be on just a couple each month?

 

[NOT A TA]

Assuming it's for the Cat I'd go 455 because of the eventual resale. More buyers for a 455 car than a 428 car if it's not a numbers matching car.

An answer, and yep I already donated this month so your theory stands.

 

[chromebumpers]

The Cat is done, I wouldn't change out a good numbers matching motor. I have a fully loaded 65 GTO without a motor, Trans and a good rear. I've been referring to this car and motor for weeks. Without an original motor I might as well put in anything that makes sense - right?
I'm not quite sure I understand your last sentence - this is what sucks about forum messaging, I can see you donated, so did I, is that not seen by everyone?

 

[busterrm]

I would take a close look at both for overall condition as grumpy stated.

 

[chromebumpers]

I would take a close look at both for overall condition as grumpy stated.

It's a safe bet you didn't read what I said 3 posts ago.

[I was actually aiming for the ideology behind the two platforms not these two exact examples.
Taking a these 2 engines with nearly the same condition- being good to clean up, tune up and go. I can only find a near 1/2 lb. difference in compression between the 2 motors but there is a significant difference in the performance numbers. I'd like to know how high hp and torque reached at low rpm's can be good or bad for speed.]

 

[NOT A TA]

The Cat is done, I wouldn't change out a good numbers matching motor. I have a fully loaded 65 GTO without a motor, Trans and a good rear. I've been referring to this car and motor for weeks. Without an original motor I might as well put in anything that makes sense - right?
I'm not quite sure I understand your last sentence - this is what sucks about forum messaging, I can see you donated, so did I, is that not seen by everyone?

Sorry, I assumed wrong. I typically don't respond to posts on forums where there isn't enough background info given in the OP to base an answer on for a question presented in the post, but you seemed annoyed at the lack of responses. I now recall reading posts on a GTO you sent to a shop that didn't complete the work. Didn't remember that at the time. I frequent 15-20 forums and don't really try to remember everything that all the members have going on.

The donation correlation comment was presented jokingly. I don't see what anyone donates, maybe you have mod powers or something. I've actually tried to look for something on the forum confirming that my donations have been received but haven't been able to locate anything, so I just take Paypals word for it.

My basic thoughts are that higher torque & horsepower at lower RPMs is better for street cars and having more power in the upper ranges is better for cars that are raced. Having more grunt down low in the under 3500 RPM range gives a street car more usable power where it is needed/desired on the street. An engine that has it's peaks up higher is good for race cars because they spend little time in the low RPM range but can really use the extra power on the upper end to overcome aerodynamic drag. Of course there's the whole middle ground a lot of folks fit in where there has to be a compromise.

As for what to do for the GTO? I still would base my thoughts on resale and choose the 455.

 

[Indycars]

I've actually tried to look for something on the forum confirming that my donations have been received but haven't been able to locate anything, so I just take Paypals word for it.

If you enter the forum thru the "New Posts" then you won't see the donations. Click on "Forum" at the top of the page, then you will see donations on the right side. Mouse over the avatars to see totals. Then click on "View Goal Details" for even more info.

I use the PayPal reoccurring payments and those don't show up anywhere for the public.

 

[chromebumpers]

Sorry, I assumed wrong. I typically don't respond to posts on forums where there isn't enough background info given in the OP to base an answer on for a question presented in the post,

Sorry, I thought I had good information. To me, it seems I write in explicit detail more than most on this forum.

but you seemed annoyed at the lack of responses.

Absolutely! I'm on multiple forums too and I think anybody that is on DC's forum knows who I am between here and there, but you won't see me post the same questions (although I know I would get answers more frequently on DC then here I still stay here).

maybe you have mod powers or something

I am a mod. It doesn't show "Staff" under my Avatar?

My basic thoughts are that higher torque & horsepower at lower RPMs is better for street cars and having more power in the upper ranges is better for cars that are raced. Having more grunt down low in the under 3500 RPM range gives a street car more usable power where it is needed/desired on the street. An engine that has it's peaks up higher is good for race cars because they spend little time in the low RPM range but can really use the extra power on the upper end to overcome aerodynamic drag. Of course there's the whole middle ground a lot of folks fit in where there has to be a compromise.

This is what I thought as well when I read the stats on the 428. For a minimum I want a sub 12 sec car at the very least, but really like to be in the 10 sec range without an over the top engine build or spending crazy money.

 

[busterrm]

It's a safe bet you didn't read what I said 3 posts ago.

[I was actually aiming for the ideology behind the two platforms not these two exact examples.
Taking a these 2 engines with nearly the same condition- being good to clean up, tune up and go. I can only find a near 1/2 lb. difference in compression between the 2 motors but there is a significant difference in the performance numbers. I'd like to know how high hp and torque reached at low rpm's can be good or bad for speed.]

No, I read the entire thread. I Agree with Grumpy's method for choosing between the 2 engines. If the 428 is in great shape I would choose it. I have known several guys that owned them, stout engine. I am a rebel though , I buck the odds!

 

[NOT A TA]

For a minimum I want a sub 12 sec car at the very least, but really like to be in the 10 sec range without an over the top engine build or spending crazy money.

A car that can run 10's is fast, I've only driven one that fast. Don't know how much you're willing to spend on it but it'll probably take a thought out overall plan that includes a good engine build and drive train upgrades along with drag wheels/tires. Just putting either one of those engines in the car (with good stock tune) is probably a mid-high 13 second car.

With this new info about the 10 second desire I wouldn't bother with either engine. You'd be paying for a fresh build that would need to be torn down to build for more power. Would you consider using nitrous to run at the strip?

 

[Grumpy]

going FAST is mostly about GETTING YOUR TRANSMISSION GEARING TO MATCH THE ENGINES POWER CURVE,
your suspension,
AND TIRES TO PROVIDE MAXIMUM traction and HAVING
A HIGH power to weight ratio
GET THE CAR LIGHT WEIGHT ENOUGH AND YOU CAN DO AMAZING THINGS WITH MODERATE POWER LEVELS.
IF IT WEIGH'S A GREAT DEAL ,IT WILL BE MUCH HARDER ON PARTS ,REQUIRE LARGER BRAKES AND MUCH MORE POWER,TO GET THE CAR TO RUN QUICKER AND FASTER
READ THE LINKS USE THE CALCULATORS, AND think things through carefully
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-info-worth-reading-through.11528/#post-53210

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...trans-choice-made-correctly.11697/#post-54833

 

[chromebumpers]

At SEMA this fall there were many 64, 65 GTO's with LS motors running in the 12 sec range in full street trim and ac. I saw a couple sleepers with 700 hp LS2 in the high 10's. 7oo hp LS motors are under $20k all over the Internet.

 

[Grumpy]

there will always be a balance or compromise and choices to be made.

http://www.vfnfiberglass.com/6467gto.htm

65 Style Pro Front End. Price=875.00 Weight=22 Ship: Truck Freight.

In these Pictures of the Front end. It may appear that the hood needs to be cut into a square shape in order to fit the front end ,that is not the case, in fact we've incorporated a Belly pan for The Hood to Rest on and pin down to. So the hood actually rests on top of it, so when pinned will keep air seepage to a minimum, and keep the stock appearance of the Hood and front end.

65 Front Bumper. Price=205.00 Weight=3 Ship: UPS Item.

65 Rear Bumper .Price=205.00Weight=5 Ship: UPS Item.



65 Flat Lift Off Trunk . Price=230.00 Weight=7 Ship: Truck Freight.

65 Stock Bolt on Trunk . Price=360 .00 Weight=18 Ship: Truck Freight.



'65 GTO Roof Clip With Rear Bumper. Price=2950.00 Weight=60 each Ship: Truck Freight. The Firewall is Flush mounted and has lexan flanges for easy mounting, your chassis shop will love this body

Complete Body Package. Factory Wheelbase 115" Price=4700.00 Weight=135lbs Ship: Truck Freight.

Complete Package Includes: Body, Front End, Doors, Trunk, Dash, Hood and scoop of your Choice.



65-67 Lemans and Tempest Flat Pin On Hood. Price=299.00 Weight=13 Ship: Truck Freight.

65-67 Lemans and Tempest flat Bolt On Hood.Price=399.00 Weight=25 Ship: Truck Freight.

\



4" Pin On Hood NEW PRODUCT. Price=315.00 Weight=13 Ship: Truck Freight.

4" Bolt On Hood. NEW PRODUCTPrice=450.00 Weight=23 Ship: Truck Freight

65-67 Super GTO scoop .Price=120.00 40"L x 25W x 3-1/4"H. Weight=5 Ship: UPS Item.

66 Rear Bumper . Price=205.00 Weight=5 Ship: UPS Item.

66 Stock Lift Off Trunk . Price=230.00 Weight=7 Ship: Truck Freight.

66 Stock Bolt On Trunk . Price=330.00 Weight=18 Ship: Truck Freight.

66-67 Doors no Posts . Lexan Use only. Price=740.00 a pair Weight=11 each Ship: Truck Freight.

___________________________________________________________________________________

66-67 Pro Front End. 67 style. Price=875.00 Weight=18 Ship: Truck Freight.

66-67 Front Bumper.Price=205.00 Weight=3 Ship: UPS Item.

66-67 Headlight Bezels .Price=100.00 a pair Weight=2 a pair Ship: UPS Item.

66-67 Rear Partial Quarters. Price=358.00 a pair Weight=8 each Ship: truck Frieght.




67 Rear Bumper . Price=205.00 Weight=5 Ship: UPS Item.



67 Flat Lift Off Trunk . Price=230.00 Weight=7 Ship: Truck Freight.



67 Doors no Posts . Lexan Use only. Price=740.00 a pair Weight=11 each Ship: Truck Freight.



67 GTO Roof Clip With Rear Bumper. Factory Wheelbase 115" Price=2950.00 Weight=60 each Ship: Truck Freight. The Firewall is Flush mounted and has lexan flanges for easy mounting, your chassis shop will love this body.

67 GTO Complete Body Package. Price=4700.00 Weight=135lbs Ship: Truck Freight.

Complete Package Includes: Body, Front End,Hood, Doors, Trunk, Dash, Hood and scoop of your Choice.

 

[chromebumpers]

That's very cheap! I have to wonder how straight the parts come, how much filler/bodywork needs to be done? Dynacore and AMD will assemble complete cars, I wonder if this company would and how much?
Aside from funny cars, I never saw a completed fiberglass muscle car in full factory look a like trim, just a whole lot of 32's, old Duce coupes and Willies. There is one 69 ZL-1 COPO in all Aluminum with of course an all aluminum block, Trans, shaft, independent rear at the Peterson Museum that's pretty cool.

 

[chromebumpers]

A car that can run 10's is fast, I've only driven one that fast. Don't know how much you're willing to spend on it but it'll probably take a thought out overall plan that includes a good engine build and drive train upgrades along with drag wheels/tires. Just putting either one of those engines in the car (with good stock tune) is probably a mid-high 13 second car.

With this new info about the 10 second desire I wouldn't bother with either engine. You'd be paying for a fresh build that would need to be torn down to build for more power. Would you consider using nitrous to run at the strip?

If I could break into and consistently run in the mid to high 11s with my near stock 06 ZO6 - 700 hp should break 11 seconds.
R&R performance claims he can get 600 rwh rebuilding a stock Pontiac 428 that will have excellent street manors.








whats it really take to run reasonably fast in street trim

Discussion in 'general muscle car related info' started by grumpyvette, Aug 23, 2010.


Watch ThreadSelected Posts: 0

1. 
   grumpyvetteAdministratorStaff Member
   whats it really take ?
   , well a decent transmission,rear gears ,suspension and tires sure helps,
   but its basically your hp to weight ratio, and how effectively you get power to the ground
   any car with 400-450-plus horsepower at the rear wheels should produce exciting performance, but remember that the less that car weights the more impressive that performance, in both acceleration and braking will be, and the easier the car will be to stop or control under abrupt changes in direction,, and the less your cars total weight the easier it will be to accelerate or stop it faster, and lower weight also tends to result in lower parts wear and breakage rates, on the suspension and drive train and brakes
   your engines power potential is mostly related to the displacement, and cylinder head flow rates and components that effect those cylinder head flow rates,compression, exhaust scavenging , etc. parts like intakes,headers and cam timing.
   When you start seriously think about getting into the 10's and even 11's it's not only the HP that needs to be there, but you need to start having your converter,stall speed, rear gear, ratio,transmission gearing, ignition,timing curve,and some sort of traction aid device,and tires all dialed in. The 60' time is something you should focus on and will help greatly. Also, you need to start thinking about, total weight, weight transfer and suspension and frame so a roll cage and your suspension set up, tend to be critical.
   
   We've all been there, starting with a car that goes 13's or 14's and slowly making improvements and going faster.
   heres a few calculated, averages, based on a car weight of 3600lbs
   
   which will be close to many street cars (car & driver) and based on REAR WHEEL HORSEPOWER, not flywheel hp
   car weight....hp.......E.T......MPH
   3600...........300......13.33..100.5
   3600...........400......12.12...110.5
   3600...........500.......11.12...119
   3600...........600......10.6......127
   
   
   now lets reduce the weight to 3200lbs,
   to simulate a car stripped of most non-essential weight
   notice what the removal of weight gains you in performance
   
   car weight....hp.......E.T......MPH
   3200...........300......12.8..104.5
   3200...........400......11.65...115.5
   3200...........500.......10.82...124
   3200...........600......10.2......131
   
   
   now lets suppose you build a T-bucket, or COBRA KIT CAR that weights only 2800 lbs, (an easy to reach weight, in that application)
   
   car weight....hp.......E.T......MPH
   2800...........300......12.3..109
   2800...........400......11.14...120
   2800...........500.......10.32...129
   2800...........600......9.75......137
   http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php
   
   
   your sure to find these threads of interest
   READ THROUGH THIS LINK
   http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/
   
   viewtopic.php?f=87&t=1938&p=5136&hilit=fast+musclecars#p5136
   
   viewtopic.php?f=7&t=489
   
   http://vexer.com/automotive-tools/1-4-m ... calculator
   
   viewtopic.php?f=52&t=5078&p=14433#p14433
   
   viewtopic.php?f=69&t=9930&p=38054&hilit=+what+makes+good+engine#p38054
   
   viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10705
   
   viewtopic.php?f=80&t=906&p=1493&hilit=+learning+fast#p1493
   
   viewtopic.php?f=3&t=677
   
   viewtopic.php?f=44&t=775&p=8920&hilit=dream#p8920
   
   viewtopic.php?f=87&t=10606&p=45536&hilit=+what+makes+good+engine#p45536
   
   viewtopic.php?f=87&t=10408&p=43169&hilit=first+lemans#p43169
   
   viewtopic.php?f=87&t=8379&p=29224&hilit=take+fast+ratio#p29224
   
   Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2015
   grumpyvette, Aug 23, 2010EditHistoryDeleteIPReport
   #1Like+ QuoteReply
   
   
2. 
   grumpyvetteAdministratorStaff Member
   Re: whats it really take to run reasonably fast in street t
   
   Ive got to step back and just bite my tongue at times when I see some guys cars,
   and listen to them explain what they want to do,
   knowing the budget they have to work with and the rather UN-realistic expectations.
   If you have experience and a decent cash flow to throw into a project you can accomplish some rather surprising results, but a great deal comes down to the limitations imposed by the cars weight and the engine displacement and the amount ofcash thats available to throw into the quest for speed or performance, and if you start with a heavy car and a rather small

 

[Grumpy]

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-to-run-reasonably-fast-in-street-trim.3404/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/how-fast-were-the-old-muscle-cars.1938/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-info-worth-reading-through.11528/#post-53210

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-many-of-the-cars-desirable.11244/#post-50778

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...res-fewer-drive-train-swaps.11186/#post-50206

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...atios-and-when-to-shift-calcs.555/#post-54243