always start with the basics, ignoring them will eventually cost you

[Grumpy]

I got a call a few days ago from a guy having an issue getting his old camaro with a 396 to run right he swore the distributor must be getting loose even though he tightened it securely, because his ignition timing just never seemed consistent, even after changing his points to a newer magnetic pick-up and MSD controller,

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/1306-upgrading-a-points-distributor-to-an-hei-system/

http://www.hot-spark.com/

http://www.stangtv.com/tech-stories/electronics-efi/basic-musclecar-ignition-system-upgrades/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/additional-tech/sucp-0105-electronic-ignition-upgrade/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...grease-for-ignition-modules.10748/#post-46944

I suggested he look at the damper as the cars 40 plus years old and the distributor and cam gear for wear and checking the timing chain for excess slack, seemed like a good idea,
well I strongly suggested he
start by verifying TDC
(yeah I know you think its correct but since
EVERYTHING depends on that BEING CORRECT VERIFY IT, never assume a darn thing)

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-top-dead-center.967/

THEN READ THRU THIS

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/verifying-your-real-advance-curve.4683/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/timing-tabs-and-indicators.1015/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ouble-shooting-rebuilding-hei-ignitions.2798/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...is-designed-for-your-engine.11561/#post-53469

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/gear-and-damper-pullers.902/#post-1463

and you know what, three days later he calls to tell me that the F&^&*(*&^^% outer damper came loose......
now who could ever imagine THAT!
yes that happens heres a picture of one, where the elastomer separating the inner and outer hubs degraded due to age, heat and oil contact

look I screwed up plenty of times, and anyone who has not never did much work or tried many new things!
but I tend to learn from my NUMEROUS mistakes and thus try hard not to repeat them, so if I or anyone else suggests you check something out as a potential problem, your usually way ahead doing it even if its a P.I.T.A. and it will take you a couple hours work, at least youll KNOW FOR SURE that is or IS NOT the source of your issue and it may point you to the cause!!!

 

[Grumpy]

Based on its condition, I think my hb is original (1966 396). How long do they last? I've had this annoying engine twitch that is quite rhythmic and happens about every 2 seconds at idle. By twitch I mean the engine appears to twist or "rack" hard to where it's quite noticeable at the air cleaner. I chalked it up to the cam, but in between the "twitch" it idles smooth. Bad balancer? It's not knocking or squeaking.

I've replaced all plugs, wires, dizzy, ignition box, intake, etc and I don't think it's a miss. Hb?

without testing you simply guessing
never guess, deal in verified FACTS!

infrared thermometers are a very useful tool to track down issues with tuning, or mal functioning sensors , without verified facts your guessing.
this is the most consistently accurate I.R temp gun I've used for testing[/img]

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/e...1100200223789&utm_content=All Extech Products
INFRARED TEMP GUN
Wide temperature range from -58 to 1832°F (-50 to 1000°C)
any time that your dealing with a potential temperature issue or a trouble issue where , knowing the exact temperature vs what a gauge might say, it helps to have a handy and accurate infrared temp gun handy to locate and confirm heat, levels.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/drop-back-to-basics.12943/#post-67323

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...hink-logically-don-t-assume.12484/#post-62772

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-test-seems-to-be-a-forgotten-art-form.11838/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/vacuum-gauge-help.9453/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...oven-facts-if-your-in-doubt.13051/#post-69824

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/carb-tuning-info-and-links.109/

having a few basic meters,gauges etc.
IT sure helps too have basic tools, when isolating issues


MULTI METER

INFRARED TEMP GUN

TIMING LIGHT

COMPRESSION GAUGE

PRESSURE/VACUUM GAUGE

http://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-pump-and-vacuum-tester-93547.html
I got mine at harbor freight for about $19, and it works fine, sears sells the same gauge for a few dollars more and similar gauges are available at advance auto
READ THRU THE LINKS
http://www.sears.com/u-s-general-fuel-p ... 5887561009

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... 921x00003j

http://www.earlycuda.org/tech/vacuum2.htm

http://www.international-auto.com/fiat- ... gauges.cfm

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=10688&p=46303#p46303
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

As usually guessing is really a waste of time and effort and testing by the isolate each potential source of the problem, and then testing to verify or eliminate that potential source sure helps.
a bad plug,
inconsistent fuel/air distribution,
a defective ignition,
burnt ignition wires,
low alternator voltage,
a loose electrical ground,
a defective ignition coil,
a worn cam lobe,
a loose timing chain,
a vacuum leak,
a low compression cylinder,
a crack in a distributor cap,
a leaking vacuum line,
a low fuel pressure,
badly adjusted floats,
a sticking fuel pressure regulator,
a restrictive fuel filter,
a badly tuned carb,
a loose flex-plate
or half a dozen other potential areas to check leap to mind.
yes it could easily be a worn damper,
but it could just as easily be something else,
and the only reasonable course of action,
in my opinion is to drop back to basics and test carefully until you find the cause!
the isolate each potential source of the problem,
and then testing to verify or eliminate that potential source
yeah! I'm well aware thats not what you really want to hear, but stepping back and looking at the problem logically , breaking it down to the smallest components and testing IS a fairly dependable way to cure intermittent or elusive automotive problems.
a few basic tools like a timing light, multi meter and vacuum gauge and a shop manual, for your car, can go a long way to isolating problems

 

[Grumpy]

Thanks Grumpy. I'll break out my vacuum gauge today and start there. I forgot just how useful that tool can be.

My hb looks way better than the one pictured. I appreciate the time it took to make that list. I'm a serial "tinkerer" so there is no news I don't want to hear necessarily. My '65 SS Impala is my hobby, not my job and I love a good challenge and solving it.
Performed a vacuum test on my BBC (trying to figure out my shaky idle). Fine tuned the idle circuit (it was close) and have constant readings at about 900 rpm at 17, with a slight dipping to 16.5. When the cooling fan came on, it dipped to a constant 16.
My cam specs are below:

Summit RacingK1301 cam (Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Advertised Duration 277/287, Lift .502/.501,

Should there be some motor vibration with this cam? I saw a review where the idle was described as "choppy", a description I'd use too; although thesummitdescription says "smooth idle". Am I chasing my tail for no reason?

Rough idle is gone! When I first put the Edelbrock 750 on the car, it wasn't tuned well and suffered from off idle stumble. It stumbled less with the pump shot on the lowest position so that's where it stayed.

I left today for 6 hours. Came back to work on the car and I put the pump shot back at full position. Started the car. I noticed that the manual choke cable did not return the choke back to zero! That was probably it.

yeah that type of story is all too common, so many guys beat themselves silly trying to correct an issue they are absolutely convinced is the cause of a problem,(yeah! we all do it at times)
but only after getting really frustrated when many guys find that the problem they ASSUMED to be the cause, turns out not to be , it!
do most guys step back, and start testing and thinking that ......maybe, just maybe, its something else, and start thinking ....darn, maybe Ill need to look else-ware and test a few other potential areas, and low and behold the cause is located, once they open their minds to the possibility, that what they ASSUMED to be wrong might not be carved in granite.
one of my favorite examples,
of a guy (figuratively) beating his head against a brick wall, based on an assumption that proved to be wrong, is when a neighbor, of mine spent all day Saturday, installing a new cam, in his engine, then spent hours trying to get it correctly tuned, so it would idle , correctly then , he eventually gets really frustrated, and calls me over to give an opinion, ...after about 10 minutes of asking him a few questions I smile and ask him if he ever considered the idea that the standard 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 firing order might not be ideal for use with a 4/7 swap cam?


what particular tools have you gentlemen purchased over the last few years,
that you have found to be either a big help in making the job easier,
or a big time saver?

I frequently go over to other guys garages to help them out with various projects and repairs ans almost always,
I find I'm forced to make a side trip back to my shop to use a tool I own,
or on a few rare occasions I get rather jealous when I see they own a few tools that I wish I owned.
that can be as simple as retrieving a floor jack,
and several jack stands so I feel reasonably safe under some guys car while ,
doing a clutch replacement in his shop or using my various welders or a mill, or hydraulic press.
(step one is always think things through and don,t do stupid stuff that can get you injured , assume that mechanical things like floor jacks can fail and that having decent lighting and a fire extinguisher handy are mandatory)
now obviously I can,t afford to buy every tool Id like to own,
and there's always going to be guys that have better tools and more skills and experience than I have in several areas of expertise,
(but thats also incentive to learn new skills and acquire better tools)
and like everyone else I buy tools and some wear out,
or break and need to be replaced.
(so I may have to buy some tools more than once)
(gives me a great excuse to upgrade quality)
but I'm always amazed at how few guys own what I consider just basic repair tools like..
a decent drill press, a work bench, with a vise,
and diagnostic tools like, a decent 12" caliper, a vacuum/ pressure gauge,
and a multi-meter, and a timing light and,
a factory shop manual for your make year and model car.
not to mention, a basic tool like a decent set of jack stands and a floor jack,
or in some cases just decent quality vise grips and screw drivers
now a a mig or oxy-acetylene welder , and a belt sander, are in my opinion almost mandatory,
but I fully understand that if you don,t regularly do your own repair work,
those tools might not be in your garage
now maybe I'm the one whos got the wrong concept, here,
but I learned early in the process ,of becoming an engineer & mechanic
that making mistakes is both very expensive and wastes time,
Time and cash, you could better spend doing the job correctly,
AFTER asking someone with a great deal more experience for advice,
and doing some research into what any project might require.
and that when your not sure, or might even vaguely suspect your NOT doing something correctly,
or your NOT getting the results you expect,.....
its best to STOP and ASK DETAILED QUESTIONS ,
and follow up those questions with a general question, like
" is there anything I might be over-looking ,
or any bits of related info ,you might think of,
Can, you can tell me about the tools or parts that might be useful, here,
too know about or use or suggest a better way too do this?"

related threads
(DON,T IGNORE THE LINKS AND SUB-LINKS)

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bare-minimum-tools.11026/#post-48766

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/most-versital-shop-welder.1594/#post-50625

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-t-get-it-running-correctly.12495/#post-62966

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...s-off-under-your-tree.11863/page-2#post-68027

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/tool-boxes-and-chests.10357/page-3#post-69921

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/under-car-safety.26/page-3#post-59431

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/multi-meters.3110/#post-59136

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/first-mig-welder.10392/#post-43002

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/precision-measuring-tools.1390/

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-9901-affordable-engine-building-tools/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/148-0505-engine-building-tools/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/porting-can-help.462/page-3#post-67176

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/block-prep.125/page-2#post-55610

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bare-minimum-tools.11026/#post-51843

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...op-needs-a-decent-drill-press.970/#post-50726

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...hen-parts-are-not-available.11371/#post-52007

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-the-correct-tools-helps.12466/#post-62446