8
87vette81big
Guest
HP Increase ? Depends who you talk to.
Some say None.
Others 50 Hp.
Likely 5-10 Hp over iron I think.
Some say None.
Others 50 Hp.
Likely 5-10 Hp over iron I think.
bits of pontiac tech you may not know
- Thread starter Grumpy
- Start date
8
87vette81big
Guest
The Casting date is on the bottom of the Intake Richard.
Once installed on the engine its hidden from view.
Once installed on the engine its hidden from view.
never skip or ignore links and sub-links they contain a wealth of related info
I spent decades of time building engines using salvage years as the source for the majority of the components ( I used, and recommended)
I also spent and still spend a great deal of time building engines for myself and others, with huge restrictions on component cost and time.
Brian may think I like to point out high dollar parts....
no I hate having to spend money, on parts especially if theres a perfectly good component you can get at a local salvage yard that will work perfectly well in the application,
that may cost less than 10%-40% of what the aftermarket part may cost.... but I think excellent long term durability is far more important than throwing something together fast and cheaply, that may not last very long If you do the research, and check everything the first time...if you , do things correctly and you don,t need too do it over.
I also built more than a few (several dozen 389,400,421, 428 Pontiac back in the 1960s-1990s, and several more in the last few decades
, or as the old saying goes.. if you can't afford to do it correctly, how are you going to afford to do it over when it self destructs after the original parts selected fail.
yeah it frustrating at times..
here is one area of reality, where the difference lies between the best vs the better ,
and the all too frequent .... guys charging an exorbitant amount of money for inferior work,
you know, exactly what I'm saying if youve ever dealt with skilled machine shops,
and the better mechanics, and all too often, scam machine shops, and fly by night operations, that pop up and go out of business every few years,
and why good machinist and knowledgeable engine builder's ,are so hard to locate, and most have long wait times , too get quality work done..
and why it almost always costs considerably more, and frequently takes longer to have some shops and race teams, work on your car or engine,
its also why many guys get rather pissed off, when they see what it costs for a top quality builder to build any engine.
and without doubt guys in some shops see what the best shops charge and think.. hell, if the best shop in my area, charges that much I should be charging a good deal more,
and I can knock that out for a bit less and in less time and make a killing...... and why finding a good machinist and machine shop is a real challenge in most areas.
I can easily suggest a cam , but its a rather meaningless gesture, and all too frequently a waste of time and effort for both of us.
simply because, without verifying the facts, and this is where Id say the vast majority of internet web sites,
and the recommendations, you see being posted in them, all too often, go wrong far too frequently.
yeah its easy to assume the timings correct the true functional compression, in every cylinder is nearly identical,
(most guys measure, two or three cylinders and without a second thought ignore the rest,
and thus they, blissfully assume all the other cylinders must be the same or so close its a waste of effort,
, most guys fail to put in the effort, too measure the less easily accessed cylinders, thinking
(why bother its a P.I.T.A. and if the first two or three are fine so will the rest of them, )
and that is the attitude that will be used for other factors, yeah, most guys, and every other guy reading similar threads on a vast ocean of similar web sites,
all over the internet, skip over anything that is redundant or takes a bit of extra effort, they simply assume they know things that may or may not be true.
the vast majority of guys , are absolutely convinced, that verifying every measurement and clearance issue in their engine,
in each cylinder is so close that they are effectively duplicate in all areas,
yeah without any doubt... its a waste of time and effort, too do what most guys, will just be convinced is busy work,
yes most tuners and car owners are just like the vast majority and are convinced everything between all the cylinders have not changed are exactly as you and they remember them too be..
especially if they have taken the time and effort too do things correctly several times in the past and found that to be true in the past.
thats the difference between the 5%-10% of guys consistently posting the best and most
consistent time slips and lap times vs the guys that frequently win a few races,
but over a season or two, don,t consistently, year after year build a good reputation, for durability and consistently winning.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/
http://www.frankspontiacparts.com/engineparts/pontiacengines.htm
http://www.frankspontiacparts.com/engineparts/transmissionparts.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_V8_engine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_V8_engine
https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus/2005/08/Tin-Indian-Power/1281457.html
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/picking-a-pontiac-400-or-455-block-for-performance-use/
http://www.frankspontiacparts.com/engineparts/suspensionparts.htm
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/474-hp-594-tq-495-inch-pontiac/
http://www.wallaceracing.com/axledata2.htm
http://ronspontiacpage.com/indexes/index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_V8_engine
http://www.teufert.net/identify/identify.htm
http://www.pontiacpower.net/castnum01.html
http://www.wallaceracing.com/engine.htm
http://wallaceracing.com/head1.htm
http://www.antiquecarparts.net/tech04.htm
http://ronspontiacpage.com/reference-pages/stockheadspecs.htm
http://www.pontiacpower.net/numbers/head-codes/
http://www.classicpontiac.org/FAQ.asp?myPage=V8HeadInfo
http://www.pontiacracing.net/head.htm
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/0312pon-4x-6x-racing-heads/
http://www.antiquecarparts.net/tech03.htm
http://www.antiquecarparts.net/tech01.htm
http://www.antiquecarparts.net/tech02.htm
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/some-pontiac-related-links.4125/#post-42587
your correct it could be explained in more detail
http://wallaceracing.com/head1.htm
http://www.antiquecarparts.net/tech04.htm
http://www.pontiacpower.net/castnum01.html
http://ronspontiacpage.com/reference-pages/stockheadspecs.htm
http://www.bassettracing.cz28.com/custom3.html
http://www.classicpontiac.org/FAQ.asp?myPage=V8HeadInfo
This is a quick block ID for junk yard hunting, etc. You must find the date code at the back LH side of the block first. The letter is the month, next 2 digits are the day and the last digit is the year. Here are 2examples:
A249 code "XE"
A = January - 24 is the 24th day - and 9 is 1969
The block is a 69 428.
Another example is:
K109 "WA"
K = October or November - 10th day - 9 = 1969
The block is a 70 455 4 bolt.
These motors usually have a large "70" at the rear of the block.
*Note - blocks with only 2 mounting holes or pads (for the motor mounts) per side is from 1969 and older blocks with 5 or 3 mounting holes or pads (for the motor mounts) per side is from 1970 and newer blocks with 2 freeze plugs per side is 1966 and older blocks with 3 freeze plugs per side is 1967 and newer certain blocks for 4 bbl carb usage have scallops in the cylinders at the deck for unshrouding the intake valves. Most 1967 and earlier blocks place these scallops at approx 4 o'clockand 8 o'clockwhile 1968 and newer blocks place the scallops at 3 o'clockand 6 o'clock. Early 2 bbl blocks and most newer blocks did not have any scallops.
400 Engine Codes
Year Model Codes
1967 GTO XM XL WT WW YS XE WS WV YZ YI (RAM AIR) XS YR XP
1967 Firebird WZ WU YT (RAM AIR) WQ XN WI
1967 Fullsize XA XB WA WB WM WN YA YB YC XV YD XU YU YV XC YE XW YF XX YX WD XT WE WY XY XZ YL XH XJ WF
1968 Fullsize YA XA WA WB YC ZR YE YF XZ XH
1968 GTO XM WT YS (400 HO) WS YZ (RA I) XS XP (RA II) WY XW
1968 Firebird WZ YT (400 HO) WQ YW (RA I) WI XN (RA II) WU XT
1969 Firebird WZ YT (RA III) WQ YW (RA III) WH XN
1969 GTO WT YS XM XX (RA III) WS YZ (RA IV) WW XP
1969 Fullsize WA WD YA YB WB WE YC YD XZ WX XH YF WA WD YA YB WB WE YC YD
1970 Fullsize WE YD YB XZ WX XH
1970 GTO & Firebird XX XV WT YS (RA III) WS YZ (RA IV) WW XP
1971 Fullsize WS XX YS
1971 GTO, GP & Firebird XX WT WK YS
1972 All YX YZ ZX WS WK YS YT
1973 All YP ZK Y4 YX Y1 ZX YZ YT XK ZN WS YF WP Y6 YG YN ZS YY XX X5 Y3 YS XN
1977-79 T/A 6.6 (W72) option casting number 481988 XX is cast on the valley area and externally
428 Engine Codes
Year Codes
1967 WG YY YH Y2 XD WJ XK YK Y3
1968 WG YH WJ YK
1969 YL YH WG XK XE XJ WJ YK WF XF WL XG
455 Engine Codes
Year Model Codes
1970 Fullsize YH - 2 BOLT WG XF - 4 BOLT
1970 GTO WA YA YC - 4 BOLT
1971 Fullsize WJ YC WG YG - 2 BOLT
1971 Others HO (4 BOLT) WL WC YE
1972 2 BOLT YH YC YA ZH
1972 4 BOLT (HO) WM YB WD YE 4 BOLT (HO) WM YB WD YE
1973 YK X7 YD XM WW WT YC XE YA XL ZC ZA (SD) ZJ XD
1974 Y9 Y4 Y6 A4 Z4 Z6 YY YU YX AU ZU ZX YW ZW YR (SD) W8 Y8
1975 YW YU ZU ZW WX
1976 Y3 Y4 Z3 Z4 Y8 ZB WX
I spent decades of time building engines using salvage years as the source for the majority of the components ( I used, and recommended)
I also spent and still spend a great deal of time building engines for myself and others, with huge restrictions on component cost and time.
Brian may think I like to point out high dollar parts....
no I hate having to spend money, on parts especially if theres a perfectly good component you can get at a local salvage yard that will work perfectly well in the application,
that may cost less than 10%-40% of what the aftermarket part may cost.... but I think excellent long term durability is far more important than throwing something together fast and cheaply, that may not last very long If you do the research, and check everything the first time...if you , do things correctly and you don,t need too do it over.
I also built more than a few (several dozen 389,400,421, 428 Pontiac back in the 1960s-1990s, and several more in the last few decades
, or as the old saying goes.. if you can't afford to do it correctly, how are you going to afford to do it over when it self destructs after the original parts selected fail.
yeah it frustrating at times..
here is one area of reality, where the difference lies between the best vs the better ,
and the all too frequent .... guys charging an exorbitant amount of money for inferior work,
you know, exactly what I'm saying if youve ever dealt with skilled machine shops,
and the better mechanics, and all too often, scam machine shops, and fly by night operations, that pop up and go out of business every few years,
and why good machinist and knowledgeable engine builder's ,are so hard to locate, and most have long wait times , too get quality work done..
and why it almost always costs considerably more, and frequently takes longer to have some shops and race teams, work on your car or engine,
its also why many guys get rather pissed off, when they see what it costs for a top quality builder to build any engine.
and without doubt guys in some shops see what the best shops charge and think.. hell, if the best shop in my area, charges that much I should be charging a good deal more,
and I can knock that out for a bit less and in less time and make a killing...... and why finding a good machinist and machine shop is a real challenge in most areas.
I can easily suggest a cam , but its a rather meaningless gesture, and all too frequently a waste of time and effort for both of us.
simply because, without verifying the facts, and this is where Id say the vast majority of internet web sites,
and the recommendations, you see being posted in them, all too often, go wrong far too frequently.
yeah its easy to assume the timings correct the true functional compression, in every cylinder is nearly identical,
(most guys measure, two or three cylinders and without a second thought ignore the rest,
and thus they, blissfully assume all the other cylinders must be the same or so close its a waste of effort,
, most guys fail to put in the effort, too measure the less easily accessed cylinders, thinking
(why bother its a P.I.T.A. and if the first two or three are fine so will the rest of them, )
and that is the attitude that will be used for other factors, yeah, most guys, and every other guy reading similar threads on a vast ocean of similar web sites,
all over the internet, skip over anything that is redundant or takes a bit of extra effort, they simply assume they know things that may or may not be true.
the vast majority of guys , are absolutely convinced, that verifying every measurement and clearance issue in their engine,
in each cylinder is so close that they are effectively duplicate in all areas,
yeah without any doubt... its a waste of time and effort, too do what most guys, will just be convinced is busy work,
yes most tuners and car owners are just like the vast majority and are convinced everything between all the cylinders have not changed are exactly as you and they remember them too be..
especially if they have taken the time and effort too do things correctly several times in the past and found that to be true in the past.
thats the difference between the 5%-10% of guys consistently posting the best and most
consistent time slips and lap times vs the guys that frequently win a few races,
but over a season or two, don,t consistently, year after year build a good reputation, for durability and consistently winning.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/
http://www.frankspontiacparts.com/engineparts/pontiacengines.htm
http://www.frankspontiacparts.com/engineparts/transmissionparts.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_V8_engine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_V8_engine
https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus/2005/08/Tin-Indian-Power/1281457.html
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/picking-a-pontiac-400-or-455-block-for-performance-use/
http://www.frankspontiacparts.com/engineparts/suspensionparts.htm
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/474-hp-594-tq-495-inch-pontiac/
http://www.wallaceracing.com/axledata2.htm
http://ronspontiacpage.com/indexes/index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_V8_engine
http://www.teufert.net/identify/identify.htm
http://www.pontiacpower.net/castnum01.html
http://www.wallaceracing.com/engine.htm
http://wallaceracing.com/head1.htm
http://www.antiquecarparts.net/tech04.htm
http://ronspontiacpage.com/reference-pages/stockheadspecs.htm
http://www.pontiacpower.net/numbers/head-codes/
http://www.classicpontiac.org/FAQ.asp?myPage=V8HeadInfo
http://www.pontiacracing.net/head.htm
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/0312pon-4x-6x-racing-heads/
http://www.antiquecarparts.net/tech03.htm
http://www.antiquecarparts.net/tech01.htm
http://www.antiquecarparts.net/tech02.htm
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/some-pontiac-related-links.4125/#post-42587
your correct it could be explained in more detail
http://wallaceracing.com/head1.htm
http://www.antiquecarparts.net/tech04.htm
http://www.pontiacpower.net/castnum01.html
http://ronspontiacpage.com/reference-pages/stockheadspecs.htm
http://www.bassettracing.cz28.com/custom3.html
http://www.classicpontiac.org/FAQ.asp?myPage=V8HeadInfo
This is a quick block ID for junk yard hunting, etc. You must find the date code at the back LH side of the block first. The letter is the month, next 2 digits are the day and the last digit is the year. Here are 2examples:
A249 code "XE"
A = January - 24 is the 24th day - and 9 is 1969
The block is a 69 428.
Another example is:
K109 "WA"
K = October or November - 10th day - 9 = 1969
The block is a 70 455 4 bolt.
These motors usually have a large "70" at the rear of the block.
*Note - blocks with only 2 mounting holes or pads (for the motor mounts) per side is from 1969 and older blocks with 5 or 3 mounting holes or pads (for the motor mounts) per side is from 1970 and newer blocks with 2 freeze plugs per side is 1966 and older blocks with 3 freeze plugs per side is 1967 and newer certain blocks for 4 bbl carb usage have scallops in the cylinders at the deck for unshrouding the intake valves. Most 1967 and earlier blocks place these scallops at approx 4 o'clockand 8 o'clockwhile 1968 and newer blocks place the scallops at 3 o'clockand 6 o'clock. Early 2 bbl blocks and most newer blocks did not have any scallops.
400 Engine Codes
Year Model Codes
1967 GTO XM XL WT WW YS XE WS WV YZ YI (RAM AIR) XS YR XP
1967 Firebird WZ WU YT (RAM AIR) WQ XN WI
1967 Fullsize XA XB WA WB WM WN YA YB YC XV YD XU YU YV XC YE XW YF XX YX WD XT WE WY XY XZ YL XH XJ WF
1968 Fullsize YA XA WA WB YC ZR YE YF XZ XH
1968 GTO XM WT YS (400 HO) WS YZ (RA I) XS XP (RA II) WY XW
1968 Firebird WZ YT (400 HO) WQ YW (RA I) WI XN (RA II) WU XT
1969 Firebird WZ YT (RA III) WQ YW (RA III) WH XN
1969 GTO WT YS XM XX (RA III) WS YZ (RA IV) WW XP
1969 Fullsize WA WD YA YB WB WE YC YD XZ WX XH YF WA WD YA YB WB WE YC YD
1970 Fullsize WE YD YB XZ WX XH
1970 GTO & Firebird XX XV WT YS (RA III) WS YZ (RA IV) WW XP
1971 Fullsize WS XX YS
1971 GTO, GP & Firebird XX WT WK YS
1972 All YX YZ ZX WS WK YS YT
1973 All YP ZK Y4 YX Y1 ZX YZ YT XK ZN WS YF WP Y6 YG YN ZS YY XX X5 Y3 YS XN
1977-79 T/A 6.6 (W72) option casting number 481988 XX is cast on the valley area and externally
428 Engine Codes
Year Codes
1967 WG YY YH Y2 XD WJ XK YK Y3
1968 WG YH WJ YK
1969 YL YH WG XK XE XJ WJ YK WF XF WL XG
455 Engine Codes
Year Model Codes
1970 Fullsize YH - 2 BOLT WG XF - 4 BOLT
1970 GTO WA YA YC - 4 BOLT
1971 Fullsize WJ YC WG YG - 2 BOLT
1971 Others HO (4 BOLT) WL WC YE
1972 2 BOLT YH YC YA ZH
1972 4 BOLT (HO) WM YB WD YE 4 BOLT (HO) WM YB WD YE
1973 YK X7 YD XM WW WT YC XE YA XL ZC ZA (SD) ZJ XD
1974 Y9 Y4 Y6 A4 Z4 Z6 YY YU YX AU ZU ZX YW ZW YR (SD) W8 Y8
1975 YW YU ZU ZW WX
1976 Y3 Y4 Z3 Z4 Y8 ZB WX
Last edited:
8
87vette81big
Guest
You collecting parts again ?
Or are You going to build something ?
Do You want it or need it ?
Or are You going to build something ?
Do You want it or need it ?
Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly but are you saying the 69 to 70s are iron and are better? But then aluminum is better? Isn't the '72 RA4 intakes aluminum?
8
87vette81big
Guest
Pontiacs are not Super Fussy over intake manifolds on the street I have found.
Daul plane best choice.
The 1969-70 RAIV & 1971-72 455HO Have the Kool Factor .
Daul plane best choice.
The 1969-70 RAIV & 1971-72 455HO Have the Kool Factor .
8
87vette81big
Guest
I have used Iron Intakes before.
The Very Best iron Intake I used was from a 1967 GTO.
1969-70 Is RAM AIR 4 Aluminum .
1971-72 is 455 HO Aluminum.
The Very Best iron Intake I used was from a 1967 GTO.
1969-70 Is RAM AIR 4 Aluminum .
1971-72 is 455 HO Aluminum.
8
87vette81big
Guest
Its the Exhaust system that holds back real power Richard in Pontiac V8.
Run Awesome with Big Tube Race Headers.
And True mandrel bent Dual 3.00 -4.00" inch systems.
Since the LS Era its becoming hard to find the Race parts that I knew prior.
Run Awesome with Big Tube Race Headers.
And True mandrel bent Dual 3.00 -4.00" inch systems.
Since the LS Era its becoming hard to find the Race parts that I knew prior.
I just got word back late yesterday the shop I contracted the custom work to the 65 GTO I bought a couple months ago in Utah is now under chapter 13 protection. Not being there and working through the night to protect the car from becoming parted or worse I had to hire for a ransome a flatbed and pay for a "U Store it" place all over the phone and fax machine. Now I'm upside down unless I make this car drivable. Oddly, the way the doors open on this car and the tilt steering makes this car comfortable to get in and out of with my bad knees.
So, this now becomes my car to fit me since it's fully loaded the way I need it to be.
8
87vette81big
Guest
I like the Early GTO's A lot.
Kinda wish sometimes I would have bought a 1964 GTO On the Northside of this County I live in.
Price was a little high at 27 years old.
1 year later I bought my TA.
Its Ok to Text me if you need a faster answer.
The young guys from DC do it.
I text Junk and he Tx's me back.
Kinda wish sometimes I would have bought a 1964 GTO On the Northside of this County I live in.
Price was a little high at 27 years old.
1 year later I bought my TA.
Its Ok to Text me if you need a faster answer.
The young guys from DC do it.
I text Junk and he Tx's me back.
8
87vette81big
Guest
Check out the 1970 455 Bonneville engine.
$1250 likely a fair price.
The 1972 HO 455 intake you really don't need it now Richard.
$1250 likely a fair price.
The 1972 HO 455 intake you really don't need it now Richard.
8
87vette81big
Guest
Get Your GTO HOME RICHARD ASAP.
8
87vette81big
Guest
The 1970 455 has Motor Mount Bosses casted in and factory tapped to fit all Pontiacs 1959-81.
1965 GTO YES !
Use the correct Engine mounts.
1965 GTO YES !
Use the correct Engine mounts.
Having a 455 with some factory tricks is what interests me. But as I always maintain, I'm not going to put together a car that's not worth it in the end. I was hopping you could help me answer some detailed questions and I would make it worth your while. You help other people for nothing but I always pay my way and I don't think anyone here or DC can deni that.
Too late, I already bought the RA4 intake. Way too many have informed me just how rare RA4 parts have become so I couldn't let this one get away!
8
87vette81big
Guest
Its a 1972 455 HO Intake Richard.
You never posted a picture(s).
I googled 488945.
Just to let you know that they are reproducing this intake In China.
Crap Shit Fick.
Some dude in Dekalb IL imports and sells nationwide .
WHY I SAID CHECK THE CASTING DATE ON THE BOTTOM OF THE ALUMINIUM INTAKE.
FACTORY ORIGINAL HAS..
CHUNA FICKEN DON'T .
You never posted a picture(s).
I googled 488945.
Just to let you know that they are reproducing this intake In China.
Crap Shit Fick.
Some dude in Dekalb IL imports and sells nationwide .
WHY I SAID CHECK THE CASTING DATE ON THE BOTTOM OF THE ALUMINIUM INTAKE.
FACTORY ORIGINAL HAS..
CHUNA FICKEN DON'T .
I posted and Grumpy posted pictures of this intake of what we have. I'll post some more.
8
87vette81big
Guest
Ok.
Casting date on Bottom of the 455 HO Proves its original .
Casting date on Bottom of the 455 HO Proves its original .
This is the only shot I have right now of th bottom. Is that it, just look for a date on the bottom? Any particular date range?
This has me concerned. So there shouldn't be any date code on the bottom of these?
https://www.opgi-static.com/common/G240347-lrg.jpg
https://www.opgi.com/gto/G240346/
https://www.opgi-static.com/common/G240347-lrg.jpg
https://www.opgi.com/gto/G240346/