back in the later 1960s I was introduced by a group of "old geezers"(at least in my eyes, at the time, ) to big game hunting,
and I was mentored in the skills and requirements of out of state hunting.
(most years several of us made 1-2 week long hunting trips to hunt elk and mule deer)
for the next 40 years or so I looked forward to hunting season, almost every year,
as a big part of recreation and vacation time,
I spend a considerable amount of time and cash learning how to reload,
shoot and hunt effectively.(these guys really believed getting into under 100 yards,
before shooting was a big advantage, so we hunted dense timber most years.
now I enjoyed myself and having had a decent job and a little spare cash available most years,
I bought, tested and enjoyed collecting, and trading a large selection of rifles
,tested various calibers, and got to be a better than average shot,
(certainly not competitive in bench rest type shooting)
in fact most of these guys (my mentors) felt taking a shot at over 250 yards,
just showed you lack of hunting skill. and if you could not hit a coke can, sized target
shooting off hand , at 100 yards or sitting with a sling,
hit a coke can sized target at 150-200 yards at least 1/2 the time,
they felt you needed much more practice
but at least ,I was eventually able to shoot noticeably better than
(your average hunter, I frequently shot against in friendly competition, at local ranges)
which mostly consisted in shooting beer cans or similar size targets, shooting off hand, at 100-200 yards,
usually betting a couple bucks on each shot that connected, and eventually,
using the skills gained on hunts, observing the results we got on game,
comparing the lethality.
on various hunting trips, and doing inspections on the game we shot, as we dressed the animals out.
many of my friends also hunted, most had a favorite rifle or two, but most guys I hunt with ,
just stuck to using the rifles they owned, few people, I hunted with changed weapons.
(I sure could have saved a ton of cash if I knew then, what I know now)
one guy has a 30/06 remington pump, he always used a 180-220 grain bullet, hes used that for 5 decades,
and he was not alone, several of the old geezers swore that slide action 30/06 was the "BEST COMBO AVAILABLE"
one has used a BROWNING BLR in caliber 358 win, hes always used a speer 250 grain bullet,,
he used that rifle almost exclusively for elk for 25 plus years.
and one guy has a browning BAR in caliber 280 rem.(hes always used a 150-162 grain bullet)
this guy with a browning bar, constantly kept up a good humored / joking harassment over my choice of a magnum rifle.
these guys saved a ton of cash sticking to a rifle they owned that work for them.
I started out with a 30/06 and having tried about a dozen or more calibers I found,
the weatherby 340 mag and the sako in 375 H&H
(usually with a 250-300 grain bullet) gave me more success, one shot kills, thus consistent results and confidence,
than almost anything else I used.
personally I want to see a noticeable reaction on bullet impact,
and ideally I want the game animal I hit to drop in a few yards of bullet impact,
it took me a few years before I learned that where you place the bullet has a huge effect on the reaction you generally get,
keep in mind a hit can be 100% lethal but not be instantly fatal or incapacitating,
lower chest heart/lung shots are 100% lethal but rarely instantly fatal
please don,t mis-understand, having a rifle that potentially has extra reach is a plus...
its just not a factor that you'll need to use very often,
in the areas I hunted for decades
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ou-so-dependent-on-your-weatherby-rifle.2403/
450 marlin
35 Whelan
this may sound a bit odd, but the 358 BLR and Remington pump action, 35 Whelan
are both highly respected and sought after by the group of guys I hunt with,
as they are reasonably light, accurate, powerful and have proven very effective, loaded with 225-250 grain bullets, when I started hunting the Remington 760 pump in 30/06 was considered the ideal elk rifle by my mentors, now the similar 7600 in 35 Whelan is much sought after as is the browning BLR in 358 and 450 marlin
375 H&H
some guys I hunted with, used a 257 roberts, or 6.5mm swedish mauser,
both rifles I originally considered a bit marginal, and still do!
but if your careful they can be used successfully under limited ranges, if you shoot well consistently
both rifles killed elk and mule deer on different trips and different years,
now I knew both calibers had a long and successful history
But I was rather impressed that the smaller calibers worked as well as they did.
(but they are just not ideal from the results I've seen)
now looking back I can't remember anyone having any trouble killing deer or elk regardless of the rifle or caliber used,
NOW I certainly am not suggesting that all the rifles performed equally well or were nearly as effective or rapidly lethal,
but if your only criteria was did a well placed shot result in a dead deer or elk,
and you were not especially concerned if a few well hit animals made in 40-60 yards, before succumbing,
to the resulting lethal internal damage the bullet had done, and a few dropped immediately on bullet impact,
then yeah they all worked.
yes a 257 roberts, with a 100 grain bullet or a 6.5mm Swedish Mauser loaded with a 140 grain bullet was 100 percent lethal on every elk ,
or mule deer, that were shot correctly , and at fairly short ranges,
with weapons many guys considered marginal, even in skilled hands.
(if you don't place a shot in the vitals you can't blame the rifle for not doing its job.
Now personally, I'm convinced the 338-458 caliber rifles are a bit more effective, or rapidly lethal,
if you understand the cartridge limitations in trajectory, you can't ignore physics,
a larger bullet hitting harder does do more damage,
while that may not be more lethal, its generally going to be more rapidly effective. if placed correctly.
as I've stated, its not the cartridge as much as,
the skill and knowledge of the guy using it, and his understanding of its limitations and the games anatomy.
but damn near anything you might choose, to use, will work, if used correctly, in skilled hand works, if the guy using it,
has the skills to hit where he wanted it to, and he understands the cartridge and his limitations on making the shot'
and I darn sure suggest you select a bullet with a 240-280 sectional density and ideally between 2400fps to 3000 fps muzzle velocity.
or put a bit differently, I wasted a great deal of time and cash , testing dozens of rifles and cartridges,
and should have just stuck with using my weatherby 340 mag and the sako in 375 H&H.
but those were not the only effective options, they were just what I found suited my hunting style best.
and yeah I have used a BLR in 450 marlin with a 405 bullet in heavy cover for the last two decades, fully aware its limited in range.
and almost invariably grab my weatherby 340 mag and the sako in 375 H&H. as my primary rifle choice.
selecting your bullets sectional density and keeping it above about .250, in rifles,
has noticeable advantages on elk size game,
as it tends to result in an increase in consistent depth of penetration
(link)
heres a brief bit of info on a past hunt.
one old geezer that taught me to hunt , back in the early 1970s,
used a 257 Roberts in a pre 1964 Winchester, for decades.
he used to constantly joke about my 340 wby,
and how I used to have to carry several extra pounds of rifle weight,
when his Winchester was all that was needed.
he killed more than his share of deer and occasionally an elk.
I helped him drag or pack out several, over several decades.
on one occasion we were sitting on the edge of a clear-cut,
that had started to re-grow and there were lots of 3-5 foot tree-lings,
over several acres.
a legal 4x4 elk slowly entered the area we watched over,
the old geezer only had a deer license that year.
so I was sitting with my 340 wby using the bi-pod on a large fallen log,
with the crosshairs held on the area higher than, but just over the bull's heart,
and a bit behind his shoulder, I waited as he slowly advanced,
when it became obvious he was the only legal bull elk we had seen in days.
I estimated the range at about 170 yards.
when I fired, the elk dropped like a demolition on an older building.
he just dropped in place,
the older guy looked at me and said...
..damn , that was impressive
..I've never seen any elk convinced so fast that he was dead before.
most elk I shoot want to consider the matter,
think it over ...... maybe cover 40-50 yards.!
then conclude I was right!
kid that was impressive!
" that made my day "
and I was mentored in the skills and requirements of out of state hunting.
(most years several of us made 1-2 week long hunting trips to hunt elk and mule deer)
for the next 40 years or so I looked forward to hunting season, almost every year,
as a big part of recreation and vacation time,
I spend a considerable amount of time and cash learning how to reload,
shoot and hunt effectively.(these guys really believed getting into under 100 yards,
before shooting was a big advantage, so we hunted dense timber most years.
now I enjoyed myself and having had a decent job and a little spare cash available most years,
I bought, tested and enjoyed collecting, and trading a large selection of rifles
,tested various calibers, and got to be a better than average shot,
(certainly not competitive in bench rest type shooting)
in fact most of these guys (my mentors) felt taking a shot at over 250 yards,
just showed you lack of hunting skill. and if you could not hit a coke can, sized target
shooting off hand , at 100 yards or sitting with a sling,
hit a coke can sized target at 150-200 yards at least 1/2 the time,
they felt you needed much more practice
but at least ,I was eventually able to shoot noticeably better than
(your average hunter, I frequently shot against in friendly competition, at local ranges)
which mostly consisted in shooting beer cans or similar size targets, shooting off hand, at 100-200 yards,
usually betting a couple bucks on each shot that connected, and eventually,
using the skills gained on hunts, observing the results we got on game,
comparing the lethality.
on various hunting trips, and doing inspections on the game we shot, as we dressed the animals out.
many of my friends also hunted, most had a favorite rifle or two, but most guys I hunt with ,
just stuck to using the rifles they owned, few people, I hunted with changed weapons.
(I sure could have saved a ton of cash if I knew then, what I know now)
one guy has a 30/06 remington pump, he always used a 180-220 grain bullet, hes used that for 5 decades,
and he was not alone, several of the old geezers swore that slide action 30/06 was the "BEST COMBO AVAILABLE"
one has used a BROWNING BLR in caliber 358 win, hes always used a speer 250 grain bullet,,
he used that rifle almost exclusively for elk for 25 plus years.
and one guy has a browning BAR in caliber 280 rem.(hes always used a 150-162 grain bullet)
this guy with a browning bar, constantly kept up a good humored / joking harassment over my choice of a magnum rifle.
these guys saved a ton of cash sticking to a rifle they owned that work for them.
I started out with a 30/06 and having tried about a dozen or more calibers I found,
the weatherby 340 mag and the sako in 375 H&H
(usually with a 250-300 grain bullet) gave me more success, one shot kills, thus consistent results and confidence,
than almost anything else I used.
personally I want to see a noticeable reaction on bullet impact,
and ideally I want the game animal I hit to drop in a few yards of bullet impact,
it took me a few years before I learned that where you place the bullet has a huge effect on the reaction you generally get,
keep in mind a hit can be 100% lethal but not be instantly fatal or incapacitating,
lower chest heart/lung shots are 100% lethal but rarely instantly fatal
please don,t mis-understand, having a rifle that potentially has extra reach is a plus...
its just not a factor that you'll need to use very often,
in the areas I hunted for decades
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ou-so-dependent-on-your-weatherby-rifle.2403/
450 marlin
35 Whelan
this may sound a bit odd, but the 358 BLR and Remington pump action, 35 Whelan
are both highly respected and sought after by the group of guys I hunt with,
as they are reasonably light, accurate, powerful and have proven very effective, loaded with 225-250 grain bullets, when I started hunting the Remington 760 pump in 30/06 was considered the ideal elk rifle by my mentors, now the similar 7600 in 35 Whelan is much sought after as is the browning BLR in 358 and 450 marlin
375 H&H
some guys I hunted with, used a 257 roberts, or 6.5mm swedish mauser,
both rifles I originally considered a bit marginal, and still do!
but if your careful they can be used successfully under limited ranges, if you shoot well consistently
both rifles killed elk and mule deer on different trips and different years,
now I knew both calibers had a long and successful history
But I was rather impressed that the smaller calibers worked as well as they did.
(but they are just not ideal from the results I've seen)
now looking back I can't remember anyone having any trouble killing deer or elk regardless of the rifle or caliber used,
NOW I certainly am not suggesting that all the rifles performed equally well or were nearly as effective or rapidly lethal,
but if your only criteria was did a well placed shot result in a dead deer or elk,
and you were not especially concerned if a few well hit animals made in 40-60 yards, before succumbing,
to the resulting lethal internal damage the bullet had done, and a few dropped immediately on bullet impact,
then yeah they all worked.
yes a 257 roberts, with a 100 grain bullet or a 6.5mm Swedish Mauser loaded with a 140 grain bullet was 100 percent lethal on every elk ,
or mule deer, that were shot correctly , and at fairly short ranges,
with weapons many guys considered marginal, even in skilled hands.
(if you don't place a shot in the vitals you can't blame the rifle for not doing its job.
Now personally, I'm convinced the 338-458 caliber rifles are a bit more effective, or rapidly lethal,
if you understand the cartridge limitations in trajectory, you can't ignore physics,
a larger bullet hitting harder does do more damage,
while that may not be more lethal, its generally going to be more rapidly effective. if placed correctly.
as I've stated, its not the cartridge as much as,
the skill and knowledge of the guy using it, and his understanding of its limitations and the games anatomy.
but damn near anything you might choose, to use, will work, if used correctly, in skilled hand works, if the guy using it,
has the skills to hit where he wanted it to, and he understands the cartridge and his limitations on making the shot'
and I darn sure suggest you select a bullet with a 240-280 sectional density and ideally between 2400fps to 3000 fps muzzle velocity.
or put a bit differently, I wasted a great deal of time and cash , testing dozens of rifles and cartridges,
and should have just stuck with using my weatherby 340 mag and the sako in 375 H&H.
but those were not the only effective options, they were just what I found suited my hunting style best.
and yeah I have used a BLR in 450 marlin with a 405 bullet in heavy cover for the last two decades, fully aware its limited in range.
and almost invariably grab my weatherby 340 mag and the sako in 375 H&H. as my primary rifle choice.
selecting your bullets sectional density and keeping it above about .250, in rifles,
has noticeable advantages on elk size game,
as it tends to result in an increase in consistent depth of penetration
(link)
What Is Sectional Density And Why Does It Matter? | Gun Belts Blog
Ever hear of sectional density being mentioned as an attribute of a bullet? It's the relative ability of an object to deal with resistance, which does matter a bit. Read on...
gunbelts.com
LONG RANGE CALIBERS FOR ELK ARE NOT MANDATORY
now obviously this is a bit tongue in cheek, because different areas may require different equipment, and if you watch most videos or out door shows, or read most hunting magazines, you might get the idea most elk and mule deer are usually shot at long distance in open grass lands. While this...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
starting out looking for a decent hunting rifle for deer/elk
heres a few related videos, and a few related comments well I had GARY a local guy ,stop by last evening, and he brought over his new browning BAR semi auto in caliber 270 win, he purchased it as a used rifle, but was concerned that it really would be a bit too light, or lacking in power to...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
velocity or bullet mass and caliber, how much is required
Ive hunted deer, elk and hogs for close too ,5 decades,... don,t get too concerned with the ability of the weapon you choose to do the job, its mostly shot placement not velocity, energy and/ or bullet weight, and your consistent ability to hit the games vitals that should concern you, and of...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
A Couple Thoughts And Observations On Caliber And Cartridge Effectiveness
Tom was over last night and over coffee we got to talking about next year and a combo mule deer and elk hunt hes planning, he brought over a 270 win BAR rifle he has used for at least 30 years ,and wanted to know if I wanted to buy it or knew anyone that might as he wants to buy a 300 win mag...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
Jacks Browning 375 H&H A bolt
I don,t remember the exact year now but I well remember Jack was always kidding me about using a damn CANNON on my elk hunts AS I had been using either my 340 wby or 375H&H carbine for several years on these yearly Elk hunting trips, now that 375 H&H carbine or 340 wby rifle had killed all the...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
Looking For A Decent Cartridge And Rifle Combo In A Deer/elk Rifle
Id point out right up front, that we all, have preferences based on our personal experience's but there are basic standards ,we all need to judge our choices by, in reliability, carry weight, fit, function, consistent ,repeatable accuracy, and physical laws that govern getting consistent...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
one old geezer that taught me to hunt , back in the early 1970s,
used a 257 Roberts in a pre 1964 Winchester, for decades.
he used to constantly joke about my 340 wby,
and how I used to have to carry several extra pounds of rifle weight,
when his Winchester was all that was needed.
he killed more than his share of deer and occasionally an elk.
I helped him drag or pack out several, over several decades.
on one occasion we were sitting on the edge of a clear-cut,
that had started to re-grow and there were lots of 3-5 foot tree-lings,
over several acres.
a legal 4x4 elk slowly entered the area we watched over,
the old geezer only had a deer license that year.
so I was sitting with my 340 wby using the bi-pod on a large fallen log,
with the crosshairs held on the area higher than, but just over the bull's heart,
and a bit behind his shoulder, I waited as he slowly advanced,
when it became obvious he was the only legal bull elk we had seen in days.
I estimated the range at about 170 yards.
when I fired, the elk dropped like a demolition on an older building.
he just dropped in place,
the older guy looked at me and said...
..damn , that was impressive
..I've never seen any elk convinced so fast that he was dead before.
most elk I shoot want to consider the matter,
think it over ...... maybe cover 40-50 yards.!
then conclude I was right!
kid that was impressive!
" that made my day "
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