Copper/brass Vs Aluminum In Radiators

2. The siamese center exhaust ports are a design compromise that presents additional problems when aluminum heads are used. The area near the center exhaust valves is thicker, thus allowing providing less surface area for cooling.

We recommend installing a pair of -10 AN lines that connect the rear of the aluminum cylinder heads to the thermostat housing crossover in the front. This step will help offset the smaller water jackets. A pair of -10AN lines connecting the pressure side of the water pump with the area in the center of the cylinder head (just below the exhaust ports) will offset the lack of surface area due to the extra material.
@Grumpy I'm curious what you, and everyone else, thinks about thermal barrier coating the exhaust ports of an SBC head as another solution to managing the heat in the center exhaust ports in an SBC.

-It seems like a good way to put less heat into the head and the coolant and more into the exhaust- all good things, I THINK.
But I fear it also would put more heat into the exhaust valves, which already have plenty of heat going into them...

Should thermal barrier coatings on the exhaust ports be paired with coating the exhaust valve heads to keep the heat of combustion out of them? Or Sodium-filled exhaust valves? (I'm never sure if sodium-filled exhaust valves just removes more heat vs. a hollow-stemmed valve or if it removes more heat vs. a solid stainless valve...) -Running a bit more valve guide clearance is easy and possibly good too, I think.


Adam
 
all valid ideas, and certainly coating the interior of the exhaust ports after they are ported,
should help reduce heat transfer to the coolant and help at least marginally in exhaust scavenging.
sodium-filled exhaust valves are rather expensive but well proven to allow marginally faster heat transfer,
to the valve stems and valve guides to reduce the effective exhaust valve temps,
yes you can slightly increase valve stem clearances but that can often result in more rapid valve seat , and valve guide wear
 
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Cerakote has three different piston/combustion chamber coatings that could be used for the exhaust port. None of them use a catalyst or a thinner, just pour and shoot. One is even an AIR cure, the other two are oven cure. All three good to 1800°F.

Four oz bottle is $35 and would be plenty if spraying the exhaust ports only or $90 for a pint to spray pistons and chambers also.



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Cerakote has three different piston/combustion chamber coatings that could be used for the exhaust port. None of them use a catalyst or a thinner, just pour and shoot. One is even an AIR cure, the other two are oven cure. All three good to 1800°F.

Four oz bottle is $35 and would be plenty if spraying the exhaust ports only or $90 for a pint to spray pistons and chambers also.



View attachment 18096
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I think a challenge with DIY, spray-on coatings in the exhaust port is that you're not supposed to coat the valve guide. I think officially you're supposed to have the head sent without exhaust valve guides installed, then get the coating applied and then have the valve guides installed.

If there is a coating that has good adhesion with a wipe-on and "bake" type application, I could see that working. The Profiler heads, anyway, don't have any aluminum in the casting making a big valve guide support bump / vane around the valve guide, the valve guide just sticks down into the head "floating" there unsupported, and it would get covered in a spray-on application if it was left in.

I think the thermal barrier coatings on the valve guide would hold in the heat going through the exhaust valve and make the stuck valve risk greater, which is one of the primary things I'd be trying to avoid by thermal barrier coating the exhaust ports.


Less heat going into the coolant there just seems like such a "win", less coolant / engine heat, and more exhaust heat.


On a marginally-related note, a few months ago Total Seal did a dyno test of increasingly thinner piston rings and one of the side-effects that immediately showed up on the Super Flow dyno instrumentation was the reduced coolant and oil temps from the reduced friction of the thinner rings.

-I mean we constantly hear that the rings, and especially the 2nd ring are responsible for a huge percentage of total engine friction, but I always tended to think of BURNING GASOLINE and air being like exponentially such a greater source of engine / coolant heat that the frictions from the rings wouldn't really matter / move coolant or oil temps. --> WRONG. You can see it in otherwise identical back-to-back dyno tests between thick and thin rings.

Lake Speed Jr. puts off such a polyester leisure suit-wearing, high-pressure used car salesmen vibe that I'm always cautious about "buying what he's selling", but thin piston rings really do have SOOO many benefits that it's quite sad that you almost never see thin ring pack pistons in SBC rotating assemblies that are actually widely available for sale. (The Mahle Power Pak pistons have all included them for years, but they're premium pricing and then require balancing the assembly for them.) -If you look at SBC rotating assemblies on any site and sort by price, you'll have to get 2/3rds of the way through the list into some pretty decent-money assemblies to get a piston that uses a 1.2mm or thinner ring pack. (SAD...)

SBCs seem just viewed as the "cheap-ass's engine", so it seems like we don't get the "good stuff" in the parts department because manufacturers feel like they can sell similar parts to the LS guys for 2x as much.

Reduced friction and heat, some small power gains (more with more stroke, more bore, and more rpm), DRAMATICALLY reduced bore wear with silicon-containing piston alloys, and rings that don't intrude on the piston pin bore when you go with a 6" rod 3.75" stroke piston --a LOT of benefits all together that, IMHO, more manufacturers should make them standard.


Adam
 
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I think the thermal barrier coatings on the valve guide would hold in the heat going through the exhaust valve and make the stuck valve risk greater, which is one of the primary things I'd be trying to avoid by thermal barrier coating the exhaust ports.
Where the valve guide protrudes into the exhaust port, you must have reason to believe that heat is moving from the valve to the guide and not from the guide to the valve .... correct? You can't get a piece of masking tape around the guide or slip a plastic cap over the guide while spraying?

How much is the heat traveling thru the valve going to change when the piston, chamber and valve faces(?)
are coated? Dynomation has a box to check for coated Piston or Chamber coated, OR Both coated.


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but thin piston rings really do have SOOO many benefits
Surely at some point, their durability is going to suffer. OK for a truly racing vehicle only, but for the street there must be a limit. Have you read anything about life span vs ring width?
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" heat is moving from the valve to the guide and not from the guide to the valve ...."
thats one reason sodium filled valve stems are suggested to be used on air cooled and turbo race engines
2205p_rw_savvy02.jpg

yes that's a very valid point here, the valve stem, and valve seat, is where the heat from the exhaust valve is rapidly transferred to the cylinder heads, keep in mind the valve train is on a 720 degree repetitive cycle than the valves spend over 1/2 of that seated on the valve seats in the heads, allowing heat flow out of the valve heads and stems to transfer to the cylinder heads
2205p_rw_savvy04.jpg
 
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Where the valve guide protrudes into the exhaust port, you must have reason to believe that heat is moving from the valve to the guide and not from the guide to the valve .... correct? You can't get a piece of masking tape around the guide or slip a plastic cap over the guide while spraying?

How much is the heat traveling thru the valve going to change when the piston, chamber and valve faces(?)
are coated? Dynomation has a box to check for coated Piston or Chamber coated, OR Both coated.


View attachment 18099


Surely at some point, their durability is going to suffer. OK for a truly racing vehicle only, but for the street there must be a limit. Have you read anything about life span vs ring width?
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Yes. Heat moving from the valve to the guide. Grumpy's diagram is A-MA-ZING! First time I've seen that one. I knew the seat was super important and sometimes in higher heat apps the seat gets ground wider to pull more heat out, but I've never seen the heat graph of stainless vs. sodium-filled valves before.

--About using a piece of masking tape.... Yeah, that's super obvious now that you said it and obviously the way to go, lol! -I feel very stupid, not having thought of that now.

(I looked at Swaintech's website for coating before and I believe it was them who said that they wanted you to send the heads to them without the guides for coating so that got stuck in my head.)

As you move to thinner rings, you get harder ring materials to keep the durability of the rings up.
I've got a really weird and financially stupid ring pack on my engine, because I really wanted to use all my L82 bottom-end parts: Forged crank, pink rods, forged pistons -the engine only had 14.4k miles on it when I rebuilt it so the piston to wall clearance was still ok, but I also wanted a thin ring pack.

Total Seal 1.2mm, 1.2mm, 3/6" with spacers to work in the stock piston. Top ring is steel and gapless, Napier 2nd for good oil removal, the oil ring is 20lbs which is a standard tension at 1.2mm.


Adam
 
Rick! I forgot that you have full Dynomation!

I've had a theory for quite a while (one that a few guys on SpeedTalk said seems to make sense), that ultimately thermal barrier coatings on piston tops, combustion chambers, and /or valve heads SHOULD act in MANY ways like an equivalent to a certain amount of increase in compression.

-With more compression we're getting more pressure-temperature in the compressing fuel-air mixture, and if we exceed the fuel's ability to resist self-igniting at that temp level, then we get pre-ignition and detonation. You can see lots of people who are running DCRs on the edge of their fuel and then they go and get coatings and complain about it pinging like crazy and having to tear it off, too.

-Compression gives us benefits on thermal efficiency, tiny increases in burn speed / reduction in ignition advance requirement, but ALSO on the expansion ratio and coatings won't give us anything like the expansion ratio benefits, but I think it gives us most of the other benefits.

Could you take any random engine you already have in Dynomotion and simulate both coasted piston AND chamber and do a before and after snapshot of the power curve, and THEN -> go back to the uncoated option and play with increasing the compression until you get similar power numbers and then we can see how that compares and how much extra compression it would take to equal piston + chamber compression?

-It would be so cool and MAYBE? useful to say "piston thermal barrier coating is roughly equivalent to a 0.5 increase in static CR" and "chamber thermal barrier coating is roughly equivalent to another 0.2 increase in static CR".

Or maybe Dynomation just proves I'm totally wrong. Either way, you have the magic myth buster tool!



Adam
 
" heat is moving from the valve to the guide and not from the guide to the valve ...."
thats one reason sodium filled valve stems are suggested to be used on air cooled and turbo race engines
2205p_rw_savvy02.jpg

yes that's a very valid point here, the valve stem, and valve seat, is where the heat from the exhaust valve is rapidly transferred to the cylinder heads, keep in mind the valve train is on a 720 degree repetitive cycle than the valves spend over 1/2 of that seated on the valve seats in the heads, allowing heat flow out of the valve heads and stems to transfer to the cylinder heads
WOW! That makes me think you should probably run slightly larger valve-to-guide clearances if going with a sodium exhaust valve. Right? (More heat = more expansion = need more clearance?)


Adam
 
they design the sodium filled valves stem diameter to work in the stated valve guide clearance,
as usually taking the effort to read instructions generally helps avoid issues.
in most cases the vendors provide very detailed install instructions regarding valve spring loads,
valve guide clearances, valve spring installed heights and valve spring load rates to be used.
 
--About using a piece of masking tape..
Believe I would go with the plastic caps, should be alot easier although a bit more expensive.

Could you take any random engine you already have in Dynomotion and simulate both coasted piston AND chamber and do a before and after snapshot of the power curve, and THEN -> go back to the uncoated option and play with increasing the compression until you get similar power numbers and then we can see how that compares and how much extra compression it would take to equal piston + chamber compression?
Yes, I can do that. The software is on the garage computer and temps are hitting 102°F rogjt now, so I've only been out there in the mornings. Give a 2-3 days.

I image that it's not a linear relationship. If it's a 1/2 point at 9:1, it might be more at 12:1.
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Could you take any random engine you already have in Dynomotion and simulate both coasted piston AND chamber and do a before and after snapshot of the power curve, and THEN -> go back to the uncoated option and play with increasing the compression until you get similar power numbers and then we can see how that compares and how much extra compression it would take to equal piston + chamber compression?

Here you go, what do you think ???

ThermalCoatingComparisonToSCR_01.jpg

I've increased the SCR to 11.35 so that the two curves from above graph are laying laying nearly perfectly on top of each other.

ThermalCoatingComparisonToSCR_02.jpg
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Here you go, what do you think ???

View attachment 18109

I've increased the SCR to 11.35 so that the two curves from above graph are laying laying nearly perfectly on top of each other.

View attachment 18108
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WOW, WOW, WOW! Myth Confirmed!

The overlay is so perfect it just looks like one set of lines.
Thermal Barrier coating both the piston and chamber of this BBC engine was almost EXACTLY equivalent to a 0.66 increase in CR!

I'm guessing that it would also increase the propensity to knock by about the same amount of the new "compression equivalent", too..

I can't tell from the chart, but how many ft lbs was the rough increase from the higher "train tracks" after the coating?



Adam

P.S. Sorry for the lag, I'm On Call responding to system outages at work for 12 hours a day for 7 days in a row this week so I barely have time to sleep and eat this week; almost no internet time. ;-(
 
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I don't want to push my luck asking you to simulate a bunch of scenarios, but if it's not too painful, could you do the same thing for just piston top coating?

Given the larger surface area, I'm guessing that coating the chamber has a larger "Compression increase equivalent" vs. the piston, but it's just a guess right now.

-I also think that the amount of gain from the chamber coating would depend upon the temp of the coolant at least with big swings in coolant temps. (Could be huge for Prostock starting with coolant temps at like 100 deg F after the burnout.) -No, I don't expect Dynomation to be able to simulate that at all.

I'm to the point that I feel like thermal barrier coatings in a pump gas application are pointless if you can actually get the static compression ratio to where you want it, otherwise, the thermal barrier coatings can "make up for" a less-than-ideal compression ratio.

Actual compression ratio increases increase power even if you do things like pull the heat back out with cool coolant or piston oil squirters, so always pushing the static compression ratio just seems so much more important to me. Thermal barrier coatings just to make up for not enough compression or to act like extra compression when you're not octane limited. That's my current opinion.



Adam
 
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I can't tell from the chart, but how many ft lbs was the rough increase from the higher "train tracks" after the coating?
1693680220535.jpeg

I don't want to push my luck asking you to simulate a bunch of scenarios, but if it's not too painful, could you do the same thing for just piston top coating?
Will try to run the requested sims after the holiday weekend.
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you should keep in mind every choice made is a compromise in some areas, planning is critical, but reality can bite you financial in the ass.
incremental gains through minor mods while surely possible and yes proven, to work,but adding those mods,
are at some point ,mods to the engine,or transmission, that are becoming rapidly more, expensive and thus restrictive to completion of a durable & functional engine than the benefits are to the overall build, those mods may produce minor and documented gains, but the minor gains produced are far out weighted by the cost of the mods, especially in a daily drivers engine, things that make sense in a formula 1 or NASCAR engine build, are cost prohibitive to do on a street car, simply shedding weight on the car or improving the aerodynamics, may be far cheaper and result in greater performance.
I've built a few dozen 489-496 BBC engines in the past for guys with novas, camaros chevelles etc, that had visions of having a 10 second or faster car on the street, and the results of having a significantly more powerful engines always resulted in the need for mods like suspension mods,
like traction bars, air shocks, bigger tires, bigger brakes, better engine cooling systems, new stronger differentials, etc. that they may have never considered, that were required to make the car handle correctly, this is never a cheap hobby, but at some point there's a limit to what your wallet will tolerate and how long you want to deal with a car who's engine is (STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION SO I CAN'T DRIVE IT YET)
 
Super interesting. so, for this engine 0.31+ CR increase equivalent from the piston top coating and .35+ CR increase equivalent from the chamber coating.
You can't really say the piston is good for .31 CR, since the choice is "Piston or Chamber Thermally Coated". It's not really specifying which one is getting coated.

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