has anyone else noticed the..

[grumpyvette]

has anyone else noticed the fuel you get from the local gas stations is causing problems?
ethanol added to fuel in theory increases octane and reduces emissions but it also tends to destroy some gaskets and seals and can cause parts to rust.
ETHANOL READILY ABSORBS MOISTURE FROM THE AIR
Im seeing a good deal more rust and oxidized metal causing carburetor problems,as a result of alcohols tendency to absorb moisture.
Ive seen several guys having rather,obvious corrosion issues in the carburetors of muscle cars that don,t get driven a great deal with the current fuel, and Ive had to replace my weed trimmers, carburetor for similar issues , it seem s that much of the current fuel is less stable over the longer term, its probably that 10%-15% ethanol but its beginning to show up as a suspected cause in a lot of the tuning issues I see, at a far higher frequency that the older fuel caused, especially when I disassemble and inspect carburetors.
its looking as though the fuel separates over time, into a semi corrosive mix.
most cars get used for transportation on a frequent basis so fuel changes and doesn,t sit in the fuel tank, un-used for months at a time,
but on project cars, race cars, and many of the cars we build as week end toys thats not always the case, and in tools like chain saws or lawn mowers fuel can sit for months between uses

Due to the instability of gas containing alcohol, shelf life is less than 3 months according to the fuel manufacturers, this is a HUGE issue with engines that don,t get used constantly like lawn equipment, or rarely driven muscle cars


BTW alcohol in fuel tends to cause aluminum to oxidize over time, and the higher the ethanol content the faster things corrode
http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
these links might help
It took me awhile but I learned you need to put a couple cap fulls of the dark blue MARINE STA-BIL in the mowers gas tank before you store it, or in several weeks time the alcohol makes the mower hard or impossible to start.

http://www.fairwaylawns.com/blog/bid/58 ... awn-Mower/

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 89595.html

http://www.goldeagle.com/products/product01A7.aspx

http://mystarbrite.com/public/pdf/LIT010V2.1-101.pdf

http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/ ... ne_formula

http://www.goldeagle.com/products/product01A7.aspx

http://pure-gas.org/

http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/ ... ne_formula

READ THESE LINKS

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=3736&p=16099&hilit=alcohol+ethanol#p16099

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=3234&p=22125&hilit=ford+dual+quads#p22125

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1037&p=26532&hilit=studs+carburetor#p26532


I disassembled, and cleaned the carb,s on my friends car, they had crap all over the inside,that looked like waxy varnish, I put 15 gallons of fresh high test fuel,and some additives in the fresh fuel, in the tank,a couple ounces of that marine (DARK BLUE) STA-BIL , a couple ounces of SEAFOAM fuel additive, and a couple ounces of M.M.O. and then cleaned the lines with high pressure air, and replaced the fuel filter, it still ran like crap for about 10 minutes, but it became obvious that the two additives were working as the engine started running better after the first 10 minutes then progressively improved

 

[mathd]

its because the ethanol is hygrogene(if thats the right term in english) it mean it absorbe water into the fuel. water and oil dont mix but ethanol and water do, the ethanol is turnin the fuel into a semi-polar liquid wich mean it will mix with oil and water so any humidity will make water in fuel wich then make corrosion. Obviously a fuel stainless line fuel pump/regulator and carburetor made for alcohool fuel should not have those problem.
Ethanol is bad for aluminium fuel line too.

 

[grumpyvette]

there may fewer problems with ethanol polluted gas in some areas because gas is made of different formulas in different parts of the country and at different parts of the year,and because it is relatively dry and cool in some areas, Less atmospheric moisture being pulled into fuel tanks and storage cans, where it condenses and goes into solution in the fuel. that could very well be a huge factor, in why some areas have far more issues , around here moisture in the airs almost constant at high levels and its rare to go a week without rain most of the year
theres several additives that are supposed to make use of ethanol laced fuel far less corrosive,

ANY TIME YOU SUSPECT FUEL INJECTOR OR FUEL SYSTEM RELATED ISSUES ,A REASONABLE START POINT IS TO USE A GOOD QUALITY FUEL INJECTION CLEANER ADDITIVE IN THE FUEL TANK AND SWAP TO A NEW FUEL FILTER
http://www.bgprod.com/catalog/gasoline- ... m-cleaner/
http://www.bgprod.com/catalog/gasoline- ... m-cleaner/
if you find a really good additive that works 100% let me know , we have ETHANOL FUEL LACED GAS AND ITS KILLS SMALL ENGINES LIKE LAWN MOWER CARBS AND PRESSURE CLEANER CARBS, in the mean time heres a list of gas vendors that only sell alcohol free fuel
ETHANOL FREE FUEL
http://www.buyrealgas.com/

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a6244/e15-gasoline-damage-engine/

BTW IF YOU WANT TO AVOID ETHANOL LACED FUEL
http://pure-gas.org/

http://marksullense85carburetors.com/

THE O-RING ON THE NEEDLE AND SEAT, AND THE DIAPHRAGM IN THE ACCELERATOR PUMP, CAN BE DAMAGED BY ETHANOL IN FUEL UNLESS AN ETHANOL COMPATIBLE MATERIAL IS USED

http://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tools/top ... s-debunked

the common 10% or greater ethanol content causes the o-rings too deteriorate
there are gas stations that sell non-ethanol laced fuel

http://pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html

http://www.sta-bil360.com/how-it-works

there ARE ETHANOL FREE GAS STATIONS LISTED, when you NEED TO FILL A MUSCLE CAR TANK, HERES MY LOCAL STATION, yes it costs more short term, easily an extra 70-80 cents a gallon, but you don,t run nearly the same risk of trashing your muscle cars engine and fuel delivery systems
http://pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html

 

[DorianL]

We bricked an Opel Insignia in Germany... we filled the tank at the Diesel pump as we should and the diesel pump filled it with gasoline. I had a cold and could not smell a thing. First time I ever hear of such a screw up. Fortunately it was a rental.

 

[grumpyvette]

I filled the lawn mower tractors fuel tank with gas again, and I had even added some ethanol treatment and some fuel system cleaner and the needle & seat in the carb was stuck shut from the crappy fuel and a residue it has, after sitting for only a week, I had to take it apart and clean it and use throttle body spray cleaner to get it functional again, the fuel SUCKS lately.
I even tried going to a different gas station and different brand of fuel , hoping it was a brand related issue, but it appears to be more than a single brand, related problem.

high pressure air and some carb cleaner solvent can be very helpful cleaning out sticky or dirty parts

 

[grumpyvette]

my lawn mower stopped running, just some info, the current gas in my area contains 10% ethanol and if you don,t put the correct additive in the fuel tank before you store the mower chances are excellent that over time the fuel will screw up the carburetor. I need to mow 5 acres about once a month year round in florida and the area next to the house about every 2-3 weeks MINIMUM,so about 6-8 hours is required to do both areas in a day I disassembled the carb and carefully cleaned it, it ran fine for about two weeks then started causing start-up issues the problem was several internal seals swelled to the point they caused fuel flow restriction issues, the inlet valve that allows fuel to enter the carb has a rubber or plastic seal on the needle valve so it locks in place jamming the valve after it sits, without moving for a few days ,I talked to the local small engine repair shop and they say easily 1/2 the repair work is related to crappy gas thats left sitting in mowers.
alcohol separates out of engine fuel, if left sitting for days at a time ,to some degree, and forms a corrosive layer that can clog jets.
you can really notice the damage the alcohol in the fuel causes when you look at a set of new seals and gaskets placed next to a new replacement set.
It took me awhile but I learned you need to put a couple cap fulls of the dark blue MARINE STA-BIL in the mowers gas tank before you store it, or in several weeks time the alcohol makes the mower hard or impossible to start.

http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/koh ... k_carb.asp

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/carb ... -of-6html/

http://www.smallenginesuppliers.com/sho ... 15123.html

RELATED INFO
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-plating-pump-diaphragms.10040/#post-39044

 

[grumpyvette]

my sons pressure cleaner he purchased from HOME DEPOT in 2010 stopped running, it was a HUSKY BRAND. that looked remarkably similar too , but NOT the same AS this one, a quick diagnosis pointed to a defective carb,PART #61 a quick check with a few local lawn mower and small engine repair shops showed the list price of a replacement carb was $150 plus shipping and IT WAS NO LONGER LISTED AS AVAILABLE and frankly being quoted $150 for a 1 barrel lawn mower or pressure cleaner carb is absurd, when most sell for $20-$50 NEW, and having no parts available on a 4 year old power tool is a good reason to avoid dealing with the manufacturers products

http://www.ppe-pressure-washer-parts.co ... sher-parts
http://www.repairclinic.com/PartDetail/ ... 01/1952405
well I went looking for parts, and found that the carb was listed as no longer available and discontinued, so I decided to take it apart and clean it out, it was a very basic carb design that while hardly complicated, had previously got the job done , so on dis-assembly I found it had crud in the needle/float valve and after very careful cleaning and re-assembly and carefully replacing a few minor parts, and after purchase and use of a few cans of carb cleaner and some very small drill bits I find I have invested about $35 and it now runs like new!
so just because ETHANOL and NO FUEL FILTER can contribute to a small engine failure (or even an automobile carb if the car sits for long with the ethanol laced fuel) that does not mean its a lost cause to rebuild
http://www.ppe-pressure-washer-parts.co ... akdown.pdf

 

[philly]

this is why i found it so valuable the info you posted about fuel-water separation filters:

if you do a bit of research youll find that those combo water separator & fuel filter combos come in dozens of different configurations and flow ratings.
these are ideally mounted near the fuel tank where you can easily access and replace parts,
that particular one pictured first,below is rated at 90 gph which for the application is adequate.
youll find this type filter mostly listed in marine applications and for diesel fuel, but they can be used for gas in carb applications.
be aware that you must carefully read the fine print on specs ,some of these filters Ive seen ar 4" in diam. and 14" tall, some are 2" diam. and 4" tall making them more reasonable for automotive use, some have CLEAR fuel bowls with a drain, sone have a drain but you can,t see the fuel thru the filter, most cars use 1/4" or 3/8" NPT or smaller fuel hose fittings some of the marine filters have fittings up to 1" NPT which by automotive standards is HUGE!

http://www.amazon.com/Moeller-Separatin ... _sbs_sg_12

http://www.amazon.com/Moeller-Separatin ... d_sbs_sg_1
Image

http://www.amazon.com/RACOR-500FG-EQUIV ... _sbs_sg_16
Image
http://www.amazon.com/Racor-320R-Rac-Se ... _sbs_sg_11

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/us ... 378&AMAZON

the filters located,between the tank and fuel pump, and the pumps generally located reasonably low inside the frame so it self primes and its protected from impacts, so the filters before the pump,and its fittings are large and not restrictive and the filters easily accessed for frequent replacement and inspection, theres several models, carefully check the thread size on the model you select before you order youll want to find the correct fittings and thread sizes and fuel line sizes ALL before you start spending cash, if the pumps AN#10 thats roughly 5/8" fuel line so that should be roughly the size maintained, you can go from larger to smaller as the fuel travels from the tank to the carb, but try hard to avoid going from small to larger as it always cause flow issues
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/prm-81794/overview/

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=8505&p=32253&hilit=separator#p32253

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=211&p=275&hilit=separator#p275

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=4381&p=29985&hilit=separator#p29985

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=4211&p=29888&hilit=separator#p29888



although the addition of the fuel water separator on a small lawnmower may not make much sense or be practical at first, in the long run using one and an additive to negate the effects of the ethanol in gas can save you big money in the long term extending the life of your equipment. much like a quality air tool lube can extend the service life of air tools when used properly and regularly.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=2718&p=41142&hilit=carb+defender#p41142

 

[grumpyvette]

yes I also think that the use of the ETHANOL protective fuel additives is a smart move, when dealing with the current pump octane gas laced with ethanol thats so damn destructive, when used in smaller engines or older car engines that were never designed to use it, or cars that get limited use, that sit with old fuel for weeks, between use.

obviously you can elect to buy gas with no ethanol content but its expensive in smaller quantities. but ok if your using it in a chain saw or weed wacker
http://www.trufuel50.com/product-info/? ... Mgod9FEAQg

there ARE ETHANOL FREE GAS STATIONS LISTED, when you NEED TO FILL A MUSCLE CAR TANK, HERES MY LOCAL STATION, yes it costs more short term, easily an extra 70-80 cents a gallon, but you don,t run nearly the same risk of trashing your muscle cars engine and fuel delivery systems
http://pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html

 

[philly]

there is such a thing as a gas station that sells fuel with no ethanol or additives in it, but they are so few and far between even in a big city like miami that its impractical to use that stuff... really the additives are all we can do within the scope of reason

 

[87vette81big]

there is such a thing as a gas station that sells fuel with no ethanol or additives in it, but they are so few and far between even in a big city like miami that its impractical to use that stuff... really the additives are all we can do within the scope of reason

Its why I would rather use Race gad Phil or AV Gas Vs E85,
I just don't trust Corn fuel.

 

[Indycars]

there is such a thing as a gas station that sells fuel with no ethanol or additives in it, but they are so few and far between even in a big city like miami that its impractical to use that stuff... really the additives are all we can do within the scope of reason

Not in Oklahoma, I always fill up with 100% gas, it's about 7-10 cents more per gallon just around the corner.

Sorry Phil and Grumpy, but sometimes it's an advantage to live in boring Oklahoma!
But all I can get is 91 octane.

 

[philly]

i like the tactical use of tiny font... what i happen to know that you must not know is.... grumpy's got a 42" flat screen computer monitor and no font is too small for that thing! :lol:

 

[philly]

there is such a thing as a gas station that sells fuel with no ethanol or additives in it, but they are so few and far between even in a big city like miami that its impractical to use that stuff... really the additives are all we can do within the scope of reason

Its why I would rather use Race gad Phil or AV Gas Vs E85,
I just don't trust Corn fuel.

if we are talking about buying drums of race gas, you can buy a drum of C85 for consistent ethanol blend and it comes with additives to lower corrosion. but really i think q16 has the most power potential

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/blogs/vp-r ... nt-tuning-

 

[87vette81big]

there is such a thing as a gas station that sells fuel with no ethanol or additives in it, but they are so few and far between even in a big city like miami that its impractical to use that stuff... really the additives are all we can do within the scope of reason

Its why I would rather use Race gad Phil or AV Gas Vs E85,
I just don't trust Corn fuel.

if we are talking about buying drums of race gas, you can buy a drum of C85 for consistent ethanol blend and it comes with additives to lower corrosion. but really i think q16 has the most power potential

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/blogs/vp-r ... nt-tuning-

No Turbos yet.
Play.
Flip a few engines.
$.

 

[philly]

hell yea put one of those bad ass motors to use in the GP and have some fun while you acquire all the parts for the "oh shit thats fast" build

 

[philly]

hell yea put one of those bad ass motors to use in the GP and have some fun while you acquire all the parts for the "oh shit thats fast" build

 

[Indycars]

i like the tactical use of tiny font... what i happen to know that you must not know is.... grumpy's got a 42" flat screen computer monitor and no font is too small for that thing! :lol:

I'm going to be much more careful in the future!

 

[Grumpy]

I recently had a guy email me this video link, on how to remove ethanol content from gas....

I watched the video, and felt like banging my head on the wall.....
the guys method is very in-efficient, and frankly stupid and wasteful.
if you don,t want alcohol content in your fuel... simply buy it from a source that sells pure 100% petroleum gas.
yes ethanol in fuel can cause serious issues if its left standing in the tank over extended periods or if the engines not designed to handle ethanol laced fuel.
obviously you don,t want ethanol in smaller engines that tend to see intermittent use like lawn mowers, weed wackers, chain saws and dirt bikes, and boat engines
and MUSCLE-CARS, CORVETTES AND T-BUCKETS , ETC.
STORED OVER THE WINTER


https://www.pure-gas.org/

 

[Maniacmechanic1]

The Grand Prix has run fine on E10 Shell 87 Octane Gasoline.
When its real Hot out I switch out to E10 Shell 93 octane.. near 100F outside temps.

Old Holley Carbs seem to take the E10 Gas OK.
Still used real thick Zinc Cadium Diachromate plating throughout.
I shut the key off and that kills the Mallory electric fuel pump.
Let the Olds 425 run out of gasoline in the Holley float bowls. Takes 45 seconds to 1 minute.
Shut off the Magneto kill switch then.

Only 1 gas station in the area that sells 91 octane no ethanol.
This past year the quality has been terrible.
Quit using. Had tuning running issues.
Switched to Shell E10 Gasoline.