Looking For A Decent Cartridge And Rifle Combo In A Deer/elk Rifle

[Grumpy]

Id point out right up front, that we all, have preferences based on our personal experience's
and
it's a fact that most centerfire cartridges used by a consistently accurate shot, with good ammo at reasonable ranges by a hunter,
who understands a cartridges limitation's,
can make a rifle so chambered work well, in most areas.

but there are basic ballistic and physics standards ,we all need to judge our choices by,
choices made in reliability, carry weight, fit, function, consistent ,repeatable accuracy,
and physical laws that govern and effect getting consistent results.
and obviously the terrain and average distances you can see or get a shot at game has a huge effect on valid options
having a decent amount of power ( impact energy and penetration)and a reasonably flat trajectory are benefits ,
but the area you hunt and the game hunted may not require you to maximize either characteristic.
understand there's a huge difference between what might prove lethal WHEN USED in skilled hands,
with perfect shot placement,
and what works almost every time with a decent shot made by your average hunter.

when I started out hunting ELK over 60 years ago my mentors were convinced that a 30/06 with a 220 grain round nose bullet was ideal.
(it worked well then and continues to work now in skilled hands in the area we hunt where shots over 250 yards are very rare.)
Id also point out that by far the two most popular rifle & cartridge combos
being used in our group of experienced hunters, are the Remington 7600 in 35 Whelan loaded with a SPEER 250 grain bullet at about 2500 FPS and the BROWNING 358 win BLR loaded with that same SPEER 250 grain bullet loaded to about 2275 FPS
most of these discussions are rather pointless, most people use what they have,
and are not likely to do the real research required to buy the best and most effective option,
KEEP in mind, its the skill of the user and his knowledge ,and acceptance of,
of each rifles accuracy and the user fully understanding the rifles,
range limitations, and the projectile selected,
rather than the cartridge that makes or breaks the combos effective use!
check the used gun rack at many gun-shops,
there are occasionally bargains to be had in ,
older high quality rifles,
that spent far more time in a gun safe,
than out hunting.
ON EACH AND EVERY ELK PHOTO, YOU WOULD AIM OR PLACE THE SCOPE CROSS HAIRS ABOUT 12 " HIGHER,THAN THE HEART IS SHOWN LOCATED,
THIS WOULD RESULT IN A LETHAL HIT FROM BETWEEN ABOUT 10 YARDS UP TO ABOUT 250 YARDS WITH MOST RIFLES

I get asked rather frequently what my choices in rifles and cartridges are,
and while my choice may not match yours ,
there are some basic guide lines to use!
we all have preferences in cartridges we have used successfully,
its hard to ignore physics and there are some limits to what will work,
but experience and the skill, knowledge and experience .
of the person wielding the firearm had a huge effect on the likely results.
you can certainly use something that's not even close to ideal,
and you'll get good results if you have the skill's, and experience to compensate,
for your rifles lack of range or accuracy or penetration,
and you use those skills to compensate by getting in close to shoot.
select the area you hunt ,shorten the average ranges you shoot at,
and ,the game you choose should obviously have a big effect on the best cartridge/bullet and rifle choice,
and many people are far more concerned with recoil levels than you might imagine.
it's been my experience that shots taken , or even the opportunity, to take a shot at game,
at over 300 yards are rather rare.
cartridges like a 45/70 or 444 marlin certainly have the required power and penetration at under 150-200 yards ,
but rapidly loose the more ideal, flat trajectory much past that range,
cartridges like a 243 or 257 Roberts certainly shoot flat,
but once well past about 200 yards they are a bit low on power/penetration,
compared to other choices in common or at least available cartridges like a, 154 grain in a 280 rem,150 grain 270 win,
165 grain in a 30/06, or 308 win, or a 338/06 with a 200 grain bullet.
action type is generally based on your experience and personal preferences,
but most people prefer bolt actions, lever actions, for reliable and consistent, function,
with semi auto and pump actions and single shots ,
being a bit less popular but just as effective in skilled hands.
Id strongly suggest you select a cartridge/rifle combo that provides at least 2500-2600 fps at the muzzle,
and at least a 150 grain bullet weight minimum in a decent cartridge,
and anything over 250 grains in projectile weight seems a bit of over/kill.
in a rifle combo in a deer/elk rifle,
and ideally in a rifle that weights less than 9 lbs with a scope mounted.
the smallest bore diameter, Id suggest would be 6.5 mm,
(and yeah a friend of mine uses a 257 Roberts and 100 grain bullets to kill elk, but he won't consider taking a shot over 200 yards)
and I don't think you need anything over .358 to get the job done reliably, but several guys I know hunt with marlin 45/70 rifles.
for ease of access to ammo or reloading component availability,
easy reloading, and decent power at lower cost,
Id suggest a cartridge based on the 30/06 case ,
examples,
(but your certainly not limited too..)
270 win,
280 rem,
30/06,
338/06,
35 Whelan, and selecting bullets with a minimum of a
,240 sectional density,
and above 250 in sectional density being preferred
there's nothing in north America a consistently accurate shot,
in the hands of a good experienced hunter,
using something along those guide lines can't reliably kill,
with a single precisely placed shot using high quality bullets.
and yeah I personally prefer the Weatherby, tikka, Sako, Browning and Mauser
actions

.375 Ruger vs. .375 H&H

Better ballistics? Better load options? Best .375 OVERALL? All this and more on today’s episode of the Backcountry Hunting Podcast!

www.youtube.com

https://www.chuckhawks.com/sd_beginners.htm#:~:text=It's calculated as follows: Sectional Density = (bullet, must increase accordingly to achieve the same penetration.

https://www.vcalc.com/equation/?uuid=951b9e0f-4057-11e3-83ad-bc764e049c3d

https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/
I think many people would be rather amazed to find a cartridge like a 6.5mm 147 grain bullet
pushed from something like a 6.5mm Swedish Mauser, or a 150 grain bullet from a 270 win,
(both combo's known for flat trajectory)
are not all that much flatter in trajectory ,
than a 225 grain bullet fired from a 35 Whelan,
over the first 300 yards where most game is taken,
if all three rifles have a 200 yard zero

what are your thoughts on the ideal cartridge and rifle combo.
what action type and scope would you consider ideal.

related videos

personally I prefer the 340 wby and 375 H&H over all the other cartridges ,
for hunting elk, ( as they have the flat trajectory and when properly loaded the lethality to be devastatingly effective)
,that I've used with complete confidence, for the past 5 decades
but the 300 mags, the 338 win mag, 7mm mags,358 win, 35 Whelan, 450 marlin 30/06 ,270 win 45/70 ,all with proper loads in the hands of a hunter that understands the cartridges limitations, with proper loads all have devoted followers
keep in mind the areas I hunted for 5 decades rarely allow you to even see any elk past about 250 yards due to terrain and aspen and conifer and oak brush and rolling hill terrain
I have used, those two cartridges ( 340 wby and 375 H&H, for many of my hunting trips ) ,
for 5 decades, and I'm very pleased with the results ,I have not yet needed a second shot, mostly because I won.t shoot until I'm certain of the shot placement (yes that has occasionally resulted in not taking shots I might have made)

Thread 'LONG RANGE CALIBERS FOR ELK ARE NOT MANDATORY'

Feb 23, 2009

now obviously this is a bit tongue in cheek,
because different areas may require different equipment,
and if you watch most videos or out door shows,
or read most hunting magazines,
you might get the idea most elk and mule deer are usually shot at long distance in open grass lands.
While this is true in some areas,
,its certainly not true for many areas I've hunted over 5 decades, most of the guys I started hunting elk with,
advised...

• grumpyvette
• Replies: 40
• Forum: rifle related

but the cost of the magnum length actions , and use of either Weatherby mark V,
or sako actions and recoil levels, and weight of the rifles chambered in those cartridges , and the increased cost of related ammo, are reasons most people won't be purchasing similar rifles,
personally I don't feel the few extra few ounces of weight, marginally longer action length, or obviously increased recoil are too high a price to pay for the very effective results,
that pushing a 250-300 grain .338-375 caliber projectile have, as I have complete confidence in the results I've seen., which in my opinion justifies the minor "problems" many people seem to have with those choices.
to me , personal confidence in what I carry ,
and the results I've seen makes the other factors trivial at best.
and yes I'm very aware that I could more than likely have used a 35 Whelan, chambered rifle, and had very similar results,
no you certainly do not NEED that extra power and penetration potential, of a magnum
as thousands of elk are killed every year with 270 win and 30/06 power level rifles,
but it certainly does not hurt to have a bit more power and penetration either.
many guys find the 7mm & 30 cal magnums to be very effective but the quality of the bullets and of course shot placement is critical.
But I'll stick with the 338 win, 340 wby , 35 Whelan and 375 H&H over all the other larger big game cartridges
and if terrain & brush limits your shots to under 250 yards the 358 win and 450 marlin are also good options

10 Forgotten Hunting Calibers That Are More Accurate Than Modern Calibers!

Rifle tech may evolve, but some forgotten hunting calibers still outperform today’s top choices. In this video, we explore 9 classic rounds—like the 6.5×55 S...

www.youtube.com

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...splitting-hairs-on-cartridge-selection.16404/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ange-calibers-for-elk-are-not-mandatory.1275/
its much more important to your success that your very familiar with and fully understand the trajectory and range limitations of your rifle, that your very persistent and that you do research on the area and game you'll be hunting, your success far more on those factors than the cartridge head stamp

 

[Grumpy]

I was talking to a buddy about recent rifle purchases and he stated he purchased a BROWNING BLR lever action in 30/06 from an estate,
he found at a local yard sale, that he thinks was only recently purchased, before the owner passed, for only $700,
this is easily a $1000 plus rifle as it came with scope and rings and sling, and a cheap padded case.
and it appeared to have only been sighted in if that,
by the statement's made by the previous owners widow,
who threw in two boxes of 165 grain federal cartridges with only 24 intact cartridges and 16 empty cases,
she claimed it was a birthday present she bought for her husband, about 16 years ago,
that never got to be used on a single hunt, so yeah there are occasional bargains to be found,
you could use something like that, high quality BROWNING BLR lever action,
for the rest of your life and never need anything else, with zero regrets.
the rifle looked to be new and certainly in excellent condition.
I asked if he might want to make a quick extra $75-$100,
as I could see where I could get about $800, from my wife... but he just laughed.
similar to this picture I found posted else ware

ON EACH AND EVERY ELK PHOTO, YOU WOULD AIM OR PLACE THE SCOPE CROSSHAIRS ABOUT 12 " HIGHER,THAN THE HEART IS SHOWN LOCATED,
THIS WOULD RESULT IN A LETHAL HIT FROM BETWEEN ABOUT 10 YARDS UP TO ABOUT 250 YARDS WITH MOST RIFLES

Thread 'sometimes you just like the way a gun handles and looks'

Aug 3, 2009

many years ago I saw a nice detailed picture in an add in the back of the shotgun news for this sako 375 H&H carbine that looked something similar like this, but with far darker, almost black walnut wood and I decided I (NEEDED IT) badly, the cost was much higher than reason, would suggest be spent, but once a 4x Leopold scope was installed it served very well for many years as my second ELK rifle, loaded with 300 grain hornady bullets, over a stiff charge of WW760 powder (77 grains) and a federal 215 primer, its never failed to kill...

• grumpyvette
• Replies: 1
• Forum: rifle related

knowing the terrain brush and game you'll hunt, and having practiced extensively with your weapon of choice,
has a huge effect on what weapon works really well
one guy I hunted with for several decades, has used a browning BLR in caliber 358 win very successfully,
another guy has used a 458 win in a ruger number 1 rifle with 400 grain cast bullets for 5 decades now,
Ive rarely seen him take a sot at over 175 yards, but he's very familiar with his weapon of choice and thinks its the ideal rifle.

 

[Grumpy]

extensive field experience is a serious teacher, cartridges like the 30/06 through the 375 H&H may be over 100 plus years old,
but they both continue to perform nearly flawlessly in skilled hands that understand the games anatomy,and the cartridge limitations,
and what's required in skilled shot placement! you don't need the latest or fastest cartridge, you need to hit where your aiming!

 

[Grumpy]

a 50 plus year mental and physical journey,
into practical experience in finding the best practical rifle and caliber for the game and areas I hunt,
I started out as many of my friends did with a used 30/06 mil surplus 1917 bolt action,
this was overly long and heavy, for my taste, but worked flawlessly, with 200 grain handloads

the guys who were my mentors were all old geezers in their 50s-60s and I was only20,
at the time but Id read everything I could find for years about hunting, larger game.
I had been invited to go along on an out of state mule deer and elk hunt in 1968, in Colorado!
most of the areas I saw or hunted in looked similar to these pictures

several of my mentors had slide action 30/06 Remington ,model 760 rifles,
(and many later swapped to 7600 remington rifles in 35 whelen chambering)

on most hunts the ability to rapidly and accurately make that first shot,
(and in most cases at well under 150 yards)
is far more critical to your success than most other factors.
darn near all the magazines and web sites will try to make you believe ,
you need to have the ability to shoot minute of angle groups out to 500 plus yards,
most of the guys I hunt with have been hunting all over the country for decades,
and most have never taken a shot at game past 300 yards,
simply because there's never been an opportunity to do so!
yes, I have a 7600 35 whelen, that I purchased as a camp back-up gun,
a rifle thats been in constant use , when guys in elk camp,
have issues like fogged scopes and loose mounts, and don,t bring a back-up
and that rifles use has resulted in 4 people purchasing a similar rifle after using it...
.Im sure it would be even more if the 35 whelen/7600 pump guns were currently easy to find now ,
as they seem to have been discontinued

btw \54 grains of ww748 under a speer 250 grain, is lethal on elk
(which along with the BROWNING BLR in caliber 358 win has become almost standard in the group(as their sons have now become the old geezers,) one of the more successful carbines is the 358 win BLR
I still hunt with)
and almost every one of these guys , at that time,
swore that was close to ideal when loaded with a 220 grain Remington peters cartridge,
most of these guys had decades of experience , and were much more successful on average than most hunters.
but I doubt if any had every had to shoot elk at over 120 yards in several decades of hunting,
a couple of the guys who had a bit more cash, were enamored or smitten with the BROWNING BLR in caliber 358 win.
a group of about 6-8 of these guys had started a loose social club based on the yearly hunt they had together ,
where they drove as a group out to Colorado in two or three pick-up trucks each year to spend the 10 day elk season,
out in Colorado, camping out and having what they all considered to be a nearly mandatory obligation to hunt elk.

I was instructed , in the fine points of elk hunting, by this group of geezers, that to be successful,
you simply sight in, off the bench at 100 yards, put the scope cross hair centered ,
(at 100 yards off the bench) on the yellow dot,
and have all the shots print over the smaller red dot, and you should consistently be practiced , with your rifle of choice,
until hitting a 3" dot , at 100 yards shooting off hand or sitting was the goal.

my first elk was hit almost exactly where Id intended, but remember I had very little or no field experience at the time,
that first elk, even if well hit, well... it ran off 40 yards before falling, thus I was not impressed with my rifle,
and I had almost exactly the same result about 2 years later, so I decided to do extensive research,
and I purchased a weatherby 340,(which the local gun-shop owner swore was the best elk rifle made anyplace!)
(I was warned that ammo cost a lot of money and the rifle was very expensive, and the potential for heavy and recoil abusive) but
I found I had zero issues with the recoil, and accuracy was consistently impressive.
my first 340 wby has a fancy wood stock, which I soon replaced with a fiberglass version, as soon as those stocks were an option.

I found the 340 weatherby was about ideal except for the length and weight,
and about a few years later I saw an add for a sako 375 H&H carbine,
looking up the ballistics I found the 375 H&H loaded with a 270 grain bullet and my 340 wby loaded with the 250 grain bullets ID been using, had similar
ballistics, I ordered one, and found it to be very effective, but it had a two piece wood stock that I had to modify and re-bed to get it to shoot consistently small groups

both those rifles shoot a consistent 3 shot 100 yard bench rest group under 1.25"
I've tried a dozen other rifles over the decades but I keep gong back to the 340 and 375 H&H
the only other contender I recently had good results with was a BROWNING BLR in caliber 450 marlin
(keep in mind the area I hunt, where getting a shot over 200 yards is about as likely as my wife approving of me getting a 19 year old mistress.
yeah the magazines all seem to be pushing the 6.5 creedmore and the 28 nosler,
but the older guys I know want more projectile mass , and I have rarely seen game out past 200 yards.

now I'm sure someone will read this and think, this guys sure stating a MAGNUM<
cartridge has a significant advantage over the standard 30 caliber ,
in lethality, but let me repeat, all the choices in the rifles I used, were lethal with a single well placed shot,
its bullet design and consistently accurate shot placement,
and a knowledge of the games anatomy,
not the use of super high velocity, or larger caliber bullets that make
the difference, even my 30/06 , with a standard 190-200 grain bullet,
was 100% lethal with one shot, the big difference was in the obvious, and the immediate reaction,
of the game on bullet impact! the difference in my experience was noticeable and impressive.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ange-calibers-for-elk-are-not-mandatory.1275/


you certainly don't need the range, flat trajectory or power these cartridges provide ,
in 95% of the places you'll hunt, but its nice to have the options they provide at times

 

[Grumpy]

youll almost never see an opportunity for a similar shot out in the open, like these pictures, which were probably taken in a national park or some non-hunting area, as always shot placement is critical, but you can't ignore physics, larger heavier bullets , in the 30-45 caliber range at reasonably high velocity are proven to be very effective, personally I like the 338-375 calibers as many of the cartridge options tend to find a balance between useful power and flatter trajectory,
keep in mind the terrain you'll hunt, if its thick timber , and narrow canyons ,you'll rarely see game past 150-200 yards

The Best Elk Hunting Calibers of 2026

In this review, hunting and shooting expert Ron Spomer gives his insight and experience on the best calibers for elk hunting.

www.outdoorlife.com

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/300-win-mag-200-gr-eld-x-precision-hunter#!/
you can't really have many issues with H4831 or IMR 4831 but I prefer the 150 grain speer bullets in a 270 win.
I have a BAR in both 270 win and 300 win mag,
btw Ive also used a speer 200 grain bullet over a stiff load of H4831 in a browning BAR, for mule deer,
with a 215 federal primer, used on mule deer, it no more or less lethal, and it kicks a bit harder but , I'll point out its also been a consistently accurate combo!
most of these discussions are rather pointless as its the skill of the user and his knowledge ,and acceptance of,
of each rifles accuracy and range limitations, and the projectile selected,
rather than the cartridge that makes or breaks the combos effective use!
the one attribute it does seem to have is its use
(200 grain bullet/300 win mag/ BAR) irks my hunting buddies,
if I use it on mule deer, but not so much on elk,
I find it amusing, and a bit confusing, in that I don't really understand why my choice in rifle or handload combos,
can in any way effect them. but if you lack a reason to start a heated and pointless conversation, tell the guy next to you have a 300 win mag in a bar you intend to use on mule deer hunts..... its always resulted in a pointless and sometimes mildly heated discussion... I don't really know why, it works well, and if you place shots in the lower,. heart/lungs its been very consistent/lethal and does not destroy any more meat than the 270 150 grain combo does in my experience.

 

[Grumpy]

if I was asked to pick the two best elk hunting cartridges,
for me it's a very easy choice
, the 340 weatherby and 375 H&H easily fill that nich, but it's not the cartridge you use ,
it's how well you understand its strengths and limitations and your skill in its use!
in the list of cartridges best suited to that usage, if you ask WHY? I think that?, it's simply, every elk I ever shot or saw shot with those rifles, did exactly what as an elk hunter you hope and expect to happen, on bullet impact the elk obviously was hit lethally, few moved more than a few yards and most dropped within a few seconds. there was zero doubt the projectiles impact was both effective and rapidly lethal.
I've seen similar results from other cartridges like the various 300 mags, and at times the 45/70. 450 marlin... but not as consistently.

I think this guys choice of the 375 RUGER is a very valid choice
basically similar to the SAKO Mannlicher 375 H&H carbine I've carried on many hunts, I've found the 270 grain soft points from hornady BARNES AND NORTHFORK ALL work well.(the speer 235 grain bullets work great on high shoulder/heart/lung shot deer)

https://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/375HH-New.pdf

remember you loose some velocity with the shorter 20"-22" barrels but I doubt its critical.
VARGET AND WW748 powders with fed 215 primers work great

especially if the heavier bullet weights are used,
the 225-250 weight 338 projectiles in the 340wby
and the 270-300 grain weight 375 projectiles work flawlessly,
if the marksman uses them correctly, and understands the obvious limitations,
mostly dictated by range and anatomy and impact velocity

if you like lever actions and regularly hunt the thick timber in the canyon country like I do for elk, you might want to buy and use a browning BLR in caliber 450 marlin, as its proving to be very effective, I sight mine in at 3.5" high at 100 yards.
this puts you dead on at 170 yards, about 3.5" low at 200 yards and about 13" low at 250 yards
certainly effective at the ranges you'll see elk at in the timber

BTW in the BROWNING BLR chambered in 450 MARLIN ,
View attachment 19272
a good deal of testing having been recently done it seems the HORNADY round nose HORNADY 350 grain bullet is proving to be both exceptionally accurate and consistently deep penetrating.

the hornady 350 grain round nose bullets are proven effective in the BLR and unlike some 400 grain designs,
they don't shed the jackets easily on impact

Hornady 45 Caliber (.458 Diameter) Bullets 350 grain Round Nose Box of 50

Hornady's traditional line of bullets feature exposed lead tips for controlled expansion and hard-hitting terminal performance. Most have their pioneering secant ogive design — one of the most ballistically efficient profiles ever developed. Most feature Hornady's exclusive InterLock® design — a...

www.grafs.com

47.6 grains of h4198
or
51 grains of RL7 with a 215 fed primer,
have proven to be excellent loads in the 450 marlin chambered BLR

 

[Grumpy]

I've used both cartridges (300 mag and 338 mag) on deer and mule deer and elk hunts
properly loaded both are very effective, you really can't fault either cartridge,
the key is in selecting a quality bullet that holds together on impact.
and as with any cartridge you need to know your personal limitations.
recoil and muzzle blast can be rather unpleasant in shorter barrel length (under 22"),
and rifles weighing under about 7 lbs, both cartridges perform best in longer 24'-26" BARRELS AND 8LB + RIFLES
both cartridges have reasonably flat trajectories and more than enough power,
when properly loaded to be devastating on game with proper shot placement!
in skilled hands a 400-500 yard shot from an accurate rifle with a scope and bi-pod in use,should be reasonably easy

 

[Grumpy]

one of the MOST critical decisions you'll be almost forced to make , is in selecting dependable optics,
luckily the quality and number of options available has increased a great deal, in recent years and prices have dropped while quality has increased a GREAT deal over what had been available even a few years and certainly far better than even a decade ago!
Id strongly suggest selecting a 30mm optic scope tube over the previously much more common 1" diameter and a 44mm-50mm forward optic lense to maximize low light gathering technology. frankly I've been amazed at the increased quality vs the reduced prices, the low quality of sub $300 scopes once was almost a given accepted lack of quality, but recently scopes that cost less than about $300-#350 have improved remarkably in optic quality and durability, over what was available even a few years ago.
(read carefully and shop carefully there are bargains to be found, use loc-tite )
some of the lower cost imported scope rings are very comparable in quality to commercial scope rings costing 4-5 times as much

Amazon.com

https://a.media-amazon.com/images/I/61WPSpM0pwL._AC_SX679_.jpg

Amazon.com

Amazon.com

I've recently purchased this scope and find its a very good value its been a very helpful upgrade on my 375 H&H carbine
making it much more useful in low light in early mornings and late evenings on lower settings and extending the carbines useful range on the mid upper settings in good lighting at a very attractive price

printable targets and sighting in

http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf.html http://www.targetz.com/targets01.htm http://mytargets.com/ http://www.ruggedbuddy.com/Rugged-Buddy-Sawhorse.html http://www.targetprinter.com/ viewtopic.php?f=92&t=2370 http://www.targetz.com/targetzlib/10064.pdf...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

btw I've generally found sighting in hunting rifles to hit 3.5" high at 100 yards provides a very useful trajectory on most hunting rifles out to maybe 250 yards where the vast majority of larger games shot, certainly this works with the 270 win, 30/06 sprng,358 win, 300 wby, 35 whelen, 340 wby and 375 H&H
while trajectories vary a good deal a center chest hold right behind the front leg with any of those cartridges sighted in that way is certainly lethal out to 250 plus yards with a decent bullet selected do your handload research, use a ballistic calculator, and use premium bullets
and having a bi-pod and sling certainly helps if you practice regularly, its not the rifle and cartridge you select as much as it is the skill and understanding of the hunter using it and his understanding of the rifle & cartridge s strengths and limitations and his knowledge of game anatomy

new reloading manuals

I've got reloading manuals that date back to the late 1960s, all the way up to the newer ones, the older ones have far less detailed info and they may have older cartridges and powders listed new manuals don't ,but there's a bunch of newer cartridges not listed in older manuals, and there's a...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

 

[Grumpy]

most hunt results were and are much more dependent on the skill and persistence and knowledge of the hunter,
than it will ever be on the cartridge he selected if its anywhere close to matching the game and terrain,
expected range it may be expected to be used at! and proper projectile selection, while critical, is a bit less important than,
the hunters skill and accurate shot placement ,thus, while critical to success , these are not factors that matter as much,
if the hunter can't, consistently, locate and get in well within range of the game he's hunting.
yes some rifles and cartridge combo are better than others,
but it's the skill of the hunter and his ability to consistently find and get within easy range that's most critical!

 

[Grumpy]

as a general rule, choose a cartridge that provides a minimum of ,these characteristics
a cartridge that pushes at least a 25 caliber bullet that weights at least 87-100 grains,
and has at least 1500 ft lbs at the muzzle energy
two of the most common and effective cartridges
, for use on deer & hogs are the 270 win. and 308 win.
personally I see the 270 win. with a 130 grain bullet and,
the 308 win. with a 150 grain bullet as reasonable minimums
but I've seen a 257 Roberts with a 100 grain bullet pushed to 3000 fps,
in the hands of a good shot work.(thats 2000 ft lbs at the muzzle)
mostly because the shooter knew not to take any risky shots!

Reload .257 diameter 110 grain Rifle Bullets at Midsouth Shooters

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these seem to work in my 257 roberts blr loaded over 43 grains of WW760

 

[Grumpy]

this video, was obviously based as humour,(click bait)
anyone with experience will suggest that a 270 win, cartridge will in skilled hands,
easily kill elk within reasonable ranges and if shot placements reasonably good.
personally I think the 30/06-338 win are about ideal, and I have a strong preference ,
for use of a 200-250 grain bullet, but looking back on 55 years of hunting elk I've almost always,
carried a 338-358-375 caliber rifle, and hunted areas where the potential for shots over about 300 yards were very rare!
among most, of the experienced old guys I hunt with the remington 7600 chambered in 30/06 or 35 whelen,
and the browning blr in either 30/06 or 358 win, are considered ideal.
as previously stated,most of these discussions are rather pointless,
as its the skill of the user and his knowledge ,and acceptance of,
of each rifles accuracy and range limitations, and the projectile selected,
rather than the cartridge that makes or breaks the combos effective use!

Thread 'LONG RANGE CALIBERS FOR ELK ARE NOT MANDATORY'

Feb 23, 2009

now obviously this is a bit tongue in cheek,
because different areas may require different equipment,
and if you watch most videos or out door shows,
or read most hunting magazines,
you might get the idea most elk and mule deer are usually shot at long distance in open grass lands.
While this is true in some areas,
,its certainly not true for many areas I've hunted over 5 decades, most of the guys I started hunting elk with,
advised...

• grumpyvette
• Replies: 40
• Forum: rifle related

Thread 'bits of wisdom, related to rifle and caliber, and rifle choice, gained over 5 plus decades'

Mar 8, 2022

back in the later 1960s I was introduced by a group of "old geezers"(at least in my eyes, at the time, ) to big game hunting,
and I was mentored in the skills and requirements of out of state hunting.
(most years several of us made 1-2 week long hunting trips to hunt elk and mule deer)
for the next 40 years or so I looked forward to hunting season, almost every year,
as a big part of recreation and vacation time,
I spend a considerable amount of time and cash learning how to reload,
shoot and hunt effectively.(these guys really believed getting into under 100 yards,
before shooting...

• Grumpy
• Replies: 8
• Forum: tales of the hunt

 

[rlphvac]

I do have several deer rifles in different calibers from 243 to 300 Win Mag but I find myself using my Tikka 25/06 with a Leupold VX 3 =3 x 9 x 40 scope in the area I hunt it has killed a lot of deer without any chasing and looking maybe a few steps but thats all

 

[Grumpy]

one of my mentors decades ago had and used a model 70 bolt action chambered in 257 ROBERTS
I thought he was absurdly under gunned for ELK , but he was remarkably and consistently successful..
he stated several times that he was aware he was at a huge disadvantage being thus armed,
that he was limited to, by taking shots, limited to under about 200-250 yards ,
but he was very willing to absorb that limitation, as in his opinion, a 30/06 just kicked too hard to be useful..

just because a cartridge may not be very popular in no way inferes,
it's not effective, in skilled hands, nor does popularity infer its the best option..

here's a brief bit of info on a past hunt.

one old geezer that taught me to hunt , back in the early 1970s,
used a 257 Roberts in a pre 1964 Winchester, for decades.
he used to constantly joke about my 340 wby,
https://garage.grumpysperformance.com/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.grumpysperformance.com%2Fdec18%2FWeatherby340ma.jpg&hash=f400efbd9c995cc9d2a55af83b461d68
and how I used to have to carry several extra pounds of rifle weight,
when his Winchester was all that was needed.
he killed more than his share of deer and occasionally an elk.
I helped him drag or pack out several, over several decades.
on one occasion we were sitting on the edge of a clear-cut,
that had started to re-grow and there were lots of 3-5 foot tree-lings,
over several acres.
a legal 4x4 elk slowly entered the area we watched over,
the old geezer only had a deer license that year.
so I was sitting with my 340 wby using the bi-pod on a large fallen log,
with the crosshairs held on the area higher than, but just over the bull's heart,
and a bit behind his shoulder, I waited as he slowly advanced,
when it became obvious he was the only legal bull elk we had seen in days.
I estimated the range at about 170 yards.
when I fired, the elk dropped like a demolition on an older building.
he just dropped in place,
the older guy looked at me and said...
..damn , that was impressive
..I've never seen any elk convinced so fast that he was dead before.
most elk I shoot want to consider the matter,....
think it over ...... maybe cover 40-50 yards.!
then conclude I was right!
kid that was impressive!
" that made my day "

 

[rlphvac]

I dont mind the recoil of my 30/06 or my 300 Win Mag but where I hunt from my stand I'm lucky to get even a 100 yard shot if I was walking I would choose bigger because I could get some really long shots I usually take my 7mm Mag or my 300 Mag as a back up gun because sometimes I will sit in my buddys stand on the power line right of way and that could be a 500 yard shot at the top of the hill but I couldn't believe how hard it is to see the deer on that right of way its grass and some brush but the deer are hidden I know they are there and sometimes I loose sight of them I thought I was doing something wrong until I asked my buddy about it and he said that no its real hard to see them there for whatever reason

 

[Grumpy]

one reason is DEER and ELK tend to neutral colored and usually move fairly slowly,and rather irregularly,
and are not as large and obvious as many hunters assume, especially at extended ranges and in most heavy grass and light brush,
much of their body is below the upper edges of the grass and brush,
in many areas game has learned to stay mostly in the brush, and avoid open areas,
you can only see their upper backs and head/neck if anything ,at any considerable distance.
human eyes are designed to pick up movement at reasonably close ranges, not ideal for locating static deer at hundreds of yards

https://www.fws.gov/sites/default/files/styles/scale_width_1200/public/2021-06/White-tailed%20deer%20bucks.jpg.webp?itok=bFr1Bkkd

https://images.ctfassets.net/pujs1b1v0165/33fa1h7ZwbsPGODzsOcKGo/c5dac791202d751b7565d09a7cc65fe5/whitetail-hunting-crp.jpg?w=2400&fit=fill&fm=webp

 

[rlphvac]

I was watching a doe and looked away to glass the area for a minute or so then I looked back to where I knew she was and couldn't find her for a few seconds and as it turned out I was looking right at her and missed her

 

[Grumpy]

the 338/06 and 35 whelen are both exceptionally effective cartridges when properly loaded
and both are reasonably cheap and easy to reload for.

 

[Grumpy]

one of the most sought after elk hunting combose is the 35 whelen in a remington 7600 pump action

https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/rifle/35_Whelen_250.pdf

35 Whelen Load Data

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[Grumpy]

 

[Grumpy]