mini, maxi or round ball for ELK
between my friends and myself we have used all three projectiles on ELK in several states over the years,
ON most hunts I use mostly 54 and 58 caliber hawken style rifles,
hunting with a muzzle loading rifle is generally a fairly close range sport compared to modern rifles,
the rifles are most effective under 150 yards.
not one of my elk ,but one dropped with a muzzle loader at close range
loads have varied as each rifle likes a different charge weight and type of powder.
my custom built 58 caliber hawken style rifle has a 42 inch 1" barrel and prefers round patched balls,
over either 95 or 110 grains of 1f , powder charges,
its a heavy but very accurate rifle.
my friend jack prefers a tc renegade 54 cal with mini balls over 80 grains of 3f
AL likes a 58 mini in his 1861 Springfield replica loaded with 76 grains of 2f
the main thing we found is that like most hunts its shot placement more than caliber or the projectile that counts,
even a soft lead mini doesn't always exit and the soft lead round balls seldom do, but they all kill very effectively.
but when selecting an ELK hunting muzzle loader your limited to 50 cal or larger in some states so keep that in mind
they may not have nearly the energy of a modern rifle or velocity, they depend on accurate shot placement and projectile mass/inertia to get the job done,
so the larger 50-54-and 58 -69 calibers have a distinct advantage, especially in states that limit you to a round ball projectile keep in mind you need to match the rifle's twist rate, to the projectile used, most rifle's will shoot a patched round ball very accurately, once you find the individual rifles preferred powder charge and patch combo,
mini and maxi balls can be noticeably harder to find an accurate load for if the rifling is not designed to use them.
round balls don't retain energy, or accuracy as well as the better mini/maxi ball designs do at longer ranges
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/pdfs/catalog/page_205.pdf
what do you guys use on ELK HUNTS ??
ITS NOT ENERGY BUT PROPER SHOT PLACEMENT, YOULL NEED TOO ACCURATELY PLACE SHOTS WHERE YOU WANT THEM TO IMPACT THAT COUNTS.
A GOOD KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAMES ANATOMY AND YOUR ABILITY for PROPER SHOT PLACEMENT IS CRITICAL
a good knowledge of a deer's or elks anatomy is also mandatory ,
remember an arrow muzzle loader mini or round ball, or revolver bullet kills by rapid blood loss and critical organ failure,
so accurate hits are mandatory for rapid results
you can't just slice, or punch holes in random parts of the games anatomy and get rapid kills.
some of the faster velocity rifle bullets , and larger diameter pistol bullets add an additional factor, of hydro-static shock , especially when a bullet impacts at about 2200 fps- or higher velocity and it has either a flat melplat (nose or it expands on impact)
, theres an energy shock wave that travels through the internals and this crushes and rips tissue the bullet itself never touched.
Ive always been into the older traditional muzzle loaders of the mountain man hawken type , mostly in 58-62 caliber
I recently was asked if I thought a 50 caliber front loader,
would be adequate for elk hunting, and if you look around you'll very quickly see that 50 caliber is becoming a favorite calibe,
in many newer muzzle loaders.
I'll freely admit Ive never used a 50 cal front loader on elk, I've always used my 58 cal or 62 cal,
but a maxi ball over 100 grains of 2F seemed to work well every time so far,
and in my two hawken style rifles groups under 2.5" at 100 yards are common off a good rest,
READ THIS
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-the-bore-clean-and-accuracy-consistant.4638/
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/uploads/supporto/9SUGGESTED BLACK POWDER LOADS.pdf
BTW for DEER AND HOGS but not ELK, you can load a .58 cal Hawken rifle using a 20 ga. shot cup with two .535 round balls stacked in line. Loaded over 85 grs. 2f black powder, a cotton ball, then a bore diameter ball of the soap lube., then the shot cup with the two round lead balls, be damn sure the column is firmly seated on the powder charger,
the two lead balls penetrate more than deeply enough for deer and almost always impact within 3"-5" , usually vertically from each other near the point of aim.
this is the same soap base grease in a larger container and cheaper per pound and easier to locate than the smaller container below
the soap paste is similar to peanut butter or axle grease as it comes out of the can, wet a patch with water and rub a bit into both surfaces to get a well greased patch that makes loading a patched ball fairly easy
http://www.colpalcommercial.com/brands.aspx?id=1730
just a bit of info, on hunting loads for larger bore hawkens
now a bit of math might be useful here , the max listed loads I commonly see posted for a 50 caliber throw a 370-410 grain bullet of several designs loaded over 100-110 grains of powder in the neighborhood of 1500-1550 fps giving you about 1850 ft lbs at the muzzle for energy
the 54 caliber steps up to about 430 grains of bullet weight and 130 grains of powder to give near 1900-2100 ft lbs of muzzle energy
the better hawken replicas in 58 caliber can use a 500-600 grain bullet over 100-130 grains of powder to give near 1400-1500fps thats close to 2700-2900ft lbs of energy
TRUST ME WHEN I SAY A 120-140 grains of powder under a 600 grain maxi ball will kill anything that walks if you can hit where you aim, it blows a golf ball size hole thru an elks chest and exits even at 200 yards, but I'd also point out the recoil on those rifles WILL GET YOUR FULL ATTENTION
[/quote]
SENECA, 36 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.350", 65 grains):
40 grains FFFg - 1894 FPS - 518 ft.lbs
50 grains FFFg - 2034 FPS - 597 ft.lbs
60 grains FFFg - 2150 FPS - 667 ft.lbs
Maxi-Ball loads (128 grains):
40 grains FFFg - 1761 FPS - 882 ft.lbs
50 grains FFFg - 1843 FPS - 965 ft.lbs
60 grains FFFg - 2001 FPS - 1138 ft.lbs
SENECA, 45 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.440", 127 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1584 FPS - 707 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1701 FPS - 816 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1800 FPS - 914 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1904 FPS - 1022 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1980 FPS - 1106 ft.lbs
Maxi-Ball loads (240 grains):
60 grains FFg - 1369 FPS - 915 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1456 FPS - 1036 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1541 FPS - 1160 ft.lbs
HAWKEN, 45 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.440", 127 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1605 FPS - 732 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1720 FPS - 841 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1825 FPS - 947 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1929 FPS - 1054 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 2003 FPS - 1140 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 2081 FPS - 1231 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 2158 FPS - 1324 ft.lbs
Maxi-Ball loads (240 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1564 FPS - 1195 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1659 FPS - 1345 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1743 FPS - 1485 ft.lbs
RENEGADE & HAWKEN, 50 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.490", 175 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1357 FPS - 761 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1434 FPS - 850 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1643 FPS - 1115 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1838 FPS - 1396 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1950 FPS - 1571 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 2052 FPS - 1739 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 2135 FPS - 1883 ft.lbs
Maxi-Ball loads (370 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1271 FPS - 1328 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1344 FPS - 1484 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1418 FPS - 1652 ft.lb
RENEGADE & HAWKEN, 54 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.530", 230 grains):
60 grains FFg - 1263 FPS - 815 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1469 FPS - 1102 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1654 FPS - 1397 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1761 FPS - 1584 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1855 FPS - 1758 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 1931 FPS - 1905 ft.lbs
120 grains FFg - 1983 FPS - 2009 ft.lbs
Maxi-Ball loads (430 grains):
90 grains FFg - 1263 FPS - 1523 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1345 FPS - 1728 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 1428 FPS - 1948 ft.lbs
120 grains FFg - 1499 FPS - 2146 ft.lbs
RENEGADE, 56 CALIBER SMOOTHBORE
Round ball loads (.550", 265 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1195 FPS - 840 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1285 FPS - 972 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1300 FPS - 992 ft.lbs
Source: "Shooting Black Powder Guns," Thompson/Center Arms Company, publication designation "CR October, 1980.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_hype.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/long_range_mu ... unting.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/58_muzzleloaders.htm
between my friends and myself we have used all three projectiles on ELK in several states over the years,
ON most hunts I use mostly 54 and 58 caliber hawken style rifles,
hunting with a muzzle loading rifle is generally a fairly close range sport compared to modern rifles,
the rifles are most effective under 150 yards.
not one of my elk ,but one dropped with a muzzle loader at close range
loads have varied as each rifle likes a different charge weight and type of powder.
my custom built 58 caliber hawken style rifle has a 42 inch 1" barrel and prefers round patched balls,
over either 95 or 110 grains of 1f , powder charges,
its a heavy but very accurate rifle.
my friend jack prefers a tc renegade 54 cal with mini balls over 80 grains of 3f
AL likes a 58 mini in his 1861 Springfield replica loaded with 76 grains of 2f
the main thing we found is that like most hunts its shot placement more than caliber or the projectile that counts,
even a soft lead mini doesn't always exit and the soft lead round balls seldom do, but they all kill very effectively.
but when selecting an ELK hunting muzzle loader your limited to 50 cal or larger in some states so keep that in mind
they may not have nearly the energy of a modern rifle or velocity, they depend on accurate shot placement and projectile mass/inertia to get the job done,
so the larger 50-54-and 58 -69 calibers have a distinct advantage, especially in states that limit you to a round ball projectile keep in mind you need to match the rifle's twist rate, to the projectile used, most rifle's will shoot a patched round ball very accurately, once you find the individual rifles preferred powder charge and patch combo,
mini and maxi balls can be noticeably harder to find an accurate load for if the rifling is not designed to use them.
round balls don't retain energy, or accuracy as well as the better mini/maxi ball designs do at longer ranges
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/pdfs/catalog/page_205.pdf
what do you guys use on ELK HUNTS ??
ITS NOT ENERGY BUT PROPER SHOT PLACEMENT, YOULL NEED TOO ACCURATELY PLACE SHOTS WHERE YOU WANT THEM TO IMPACT THAT COUNTS.
A GOOD KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAMES ANATOMY AND YOUR ABILITY for PROPER SHOT PLACEMENT IS CRITICAL
a good knowledge of a deer's or elks anatomy is also mandatory ,
remember an arrow muzzle loader mini or round ball, or revolver bullet kills by rapid blood loss and critical organ failure,
so accurate hits are mandatory for rapid results
you can't just slice, or punch holes in random parts of the games anatomy and get rapid kills.
some of the faster velocity rifle bullets , and larger diameter pistol bullets add an additional factor, of hydro-static shock , especially when a bullet impacts at about 2200 fps- or higher velocity and it has either a flat melplat (nose or it expands on impact)
Ive always been into the older traditional muzzle loaders of the mountain man hawken type , mostly in 58-62 caliber
I recently was asked if I thought a 50 caliber front loader,
would be adequate for elk hunting, and if you look around you'll very quickly see that 50 caliber is becoming a favorite calibe,
in many newer muzzle loaders.
I'll freely admit Ive never used a 50 cal front loader on elk, I've always used my 58 cal or 62 cal,
but a maxi ball over 100 grains of 2F seemed to work well every time so far,
and in my two hawken style rifles groups under 2.5" at 100 yards are common off a good rest,
READ THIS
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-the-bore-clean-and-accuracy-consistant.4638/
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/uploads/supporto/9SUGGESTED BLACK POWDER LOADS.pdf
BTW for DEER AND HOGS but not ELK, you can load a .58 cal Hawken rifle using a 20 ga. shot cup with two .535 round balls stacked in line. Loaded over 85 grs. 2f black powder, a cotton ball, then a bore diameter ball of the soap lube., then the shot cup with the two round lead balls, be damn sure the column is firmly seated on the powder charger,
the two lead balls penetrate more than deeply enough for deer and almost always impact within 3"-5" , usually vertically from each other near the point of aim.
this is the same soap base grease in a larger container and cheaper per pound and easier to locate than the smaller container below
http://www.colpalcommercial.com/brands.aspx?id=1730
just a bit of info, on hunting loads for larger bore hawkens
now a bit of math might be useful here , the max listed loads I commonly see posted for a 50 caliber throw a 370-410 grain bullet of several designs loaded over 100-110 grains of powder in the neighborhood of 1500-1550 fps giving you about 1850 ft lbs at the muzzle for energy
the 54 caliber steps up to about 430 grains of bullet weight and 130 grains of powder to give near 1900-2100 ft lbs of muzzle energy
the better hawken replicas in 58 caliber can use a 500-600 grain bullet over 100-130 grains of powder to give near 1400-1500fps thats close to 2700-2900ft lbs of energy
TRUST ME WHEN I SAY A 120-140 grains of powder under a 600 grain maxi ball will kill anything that walks if you can hit where you aim, it blows a golf ball size hole thru an elks chest and exits even at 200 yards, but I'd also point out the recoil on those rifles WILL GET YOUR FULL ATTENTION
[/quote]
SENECA, 36 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.350", 65 grains):
40 grains FFFg - 1894 FPS - 518 ft.lbs
50 grains FFFg - 2034 FPS - 597 ft.lbs
60 grains FFFg - 2150 FPS - 667 ft.lbs
Maxi-Ball loads (128 grains):
40 grains FFFg - 1761 FPS - 882 ft.lbs
50 grains FFFg - 1843 FPS - 965 ft.lbs
60 grains FFFg - 2001 FPS - 1138 ft.lbs
SENECA, 45 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.440", 127 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1584 FPS - 707 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1701 FPS - 816 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1800 FPS - 914 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1904 FPS - 1022 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1980 FPS - 1106 ft.lbs
Maxi-Ball loads (240 grains):
60 grains FFg - 1369 FPS - 915 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1456 FPS - 1036 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1541 FPS - 1160 ft.lbs
HAWKEN, 45 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.440", 127 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1605 FPS - 732 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1720 FPS - 841 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1825 FPS - 947 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1929 FPS - 1054 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 2003 FPS - 1140 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 2081 FPS - 1231 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 2158 FPS - 1324 ft.lbs
Maxi-Ball loads (240 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1564 FPS - 1195 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1659 FPS - 1345 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1743 FPS - 1485 ft.lbs
RENEGADE & HAWKEN, 50 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.490", 175 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1357 FPS - 761 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1434 FPS - 850 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1643 FPS - 1115 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1838 FPS - 1396 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1950 FPS - 1571 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 2052 FPS - 1739 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 2135 FPS - 1883 ft.lbs
Maxi-Ball loads (370 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1271 FPS - 1328 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1344 FPS - 1484 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1418 FPS - 1652 ft.lb
RENEGADE & HAWKEN, 54 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.530", 230 grains):
60 grains FFg - 1263 FPS - 815 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1469 FPS - 1102 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1654 FPS - 1397 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1761 FPS - 1584 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1855 FPS - 1758 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 1931 FPS - 1905 ft.lbs
120 grains FFg - 1983 FPS - 2009 ft.lbs
Maxi-Ball loads (430 grains):
90 grains FFg - 1263 FPS - 1523 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1345 FPS - 1728 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 1428 FPS - 1948 ft.lbs
120 grains FFg - 1499 FPS - 2146 ft.lbs
RENEGADE, 56 CALIBER SMOOTHBORE
Round ball loads (.550", 265 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1195 FPS - 840 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1285 FPS - 972 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1300 FPS - 992 ft.lbs
Source: "Shooting Black Powder Guns," Thompson/Center Arms Company, publication designation "CR October, 1980.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_hype.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/long_range_mu ... unting.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/58_muzzleloaders.htm
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