oil temps and engine wear

grumpyvette · Feb 2, 2012

I was just over at a friends shop where he was working on a kids car giving him a tune up, after he finished the kid said let me try it out, and proceeded to back the car out on the street and do a 5000rpm tire smoking burn out without letting the engine come close to reaching operational temps first, as he pulled it back up the drive way I mentioned to my friend that the chances of that engine staying in one piece over the long term was about zero, look as kids we all did dumb stuff but if you insist on beating the hell out of an engine before temps stabilize and oil gets up to the correct temps its certainly going to take a toll in increased engine wear rates, theres always a compromise and on most engines the best oil temp range to reduce wear,emissions and get the best mileage is found when the oil temps kept in the 190F-215F range MOST OF THE TIME and it RARELY exceeds 220F
look up your fluid capacity
http://www.amsoil.com/lookup/auto-and-light-truck/?zo=531421&page=/products/application_guide.aspx

http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief13%20-% ... cosity.pdf

Choosing and Using Engine Oil Coolers - Pegasus Auto Racing Supplies

Looking for information on Choosing and Using Engine Oil Coolers? Then come read about it at Pegasus Auto Racing Supplies!

www.pegasusautoracing.com

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=9880&p=37712&hilit=t+stat#p37712
BTW HERES AN IMPORTANT TIP, IF YOUR INSTALLING A REMOTE OIL COOLER, IT is really common for guys to use lines that are far too small, that restrict flow oil flow or select a transmission or oil cooler that has to small of internal passages, shop carefully you want a MINIMUM of 1/2, or AN8 line size and 5/8" or AN10 is BETTER.
many guys don,t realize that adding an oil and/or a transmission fluid cooler, with its own fan and radiator that allows those liquids to be cooled separately, to your engine and drive train, significantly reduces the heat load on the radiator, and generally allows the engine temps to decline noticeably. in fact just adding a high volume oil pan and a transmission cooler can drop your engine coolant temps 20F-30F in many cases

hotrod said:
For a dual-purpose car, engine oil needs to be at least 220 degrees F to burn off all the deposits and accumulated water vapor. For every pound of fuel burned in an engine, the combustion process also generates a pound of water! If engine sump temperatures rarely exceed 212 degrees (water’s boiling point), the water will mix with sulfur (another combustion by-product) and create acids that can eventually damage bearings.

As for ultimate power potential, the general consensus among most racers is that hot oil and cool water make more power in most engines. Cold engine oil causes excessive frictional drag on the bearings and cylinder walls. A quality conventional motor oil will tolerate oil sump temperatures of up to 250 degrees, but starts breaking down over 275 degrees. The traditional approach is to try to hold oil temperatures between 230 and 260 degrees. Even on a short-duration, drag-only combo where oil is frequently changed, I would not want to routinely see under-200-degree oil temps.

a rather common issue with adding oil coolers, is that many of the coolers available can significantly restrict fluid flow because of the small restrictive internal cross section of the internal tubing, AN #6 and 3/8" tube coolers can be quite restrictive, the AN#8 are better but DUAL AN#8 coolers and AN#10 lines generally work the best, and there's also frequently limited space to position a cooler in the outside cool air flow mandating a powered fans.
the solution to both issues can and frequently does require use of two different oil coolers but placed in series this can further increase flow restrictions, the solution is in use of larger internal cross sectional area,transfer lines and mounting the twin coolers in parallel thus doubling the effective cross sectional area reducing the flow restriction the cooler potentially could produce if used in series
by Larry Gedney

This article is provided as a public service by the Geophysical Institute, University of Alaska Fairbanks, in cooperation with the UAF research community. Larry Gedney is a seismologist at the Institute.

Dr. Terry McFadden teaches a course at UAF called Arctic Engineering. It is a gold mine of tips, solid engineering, common sense and often little-known facts about coping with day-to-day problems encountered in cold climates.

If you don't like puzzles, skip the next paragraph, but I'm including it here to show the kind of problem that McFadden gives his class. It's a classic of basic engineering rationale, and requires only rudimentary mathematics and a little insight to solve. For malingerers, the answer is given at the end of this column. The problem reads:

"Some experts estimate that the wear on the rings of an internal combustion engine is as high as 0.001" per 1000 miles of operation when the oil temperature is below 170 degrees F. If the maximum allowable wear is 0.006", how long can you run your engine when the oil temperature is below 170 degrees before you wear it out?" (A 6-to-1 engine-to-wheel reduction ratio, an average running speed of 3000 rpm, and 14-inch wheels 28 inches in diameter are assumed.)

The point of this problem is to stress that by far the greatest amount of engine wear takes place before the oil is warmed up. The amount of wear that occurs afterward is insignificant by comparison.

It can be appreciated, therefore, that it is important to warm the oil, as well as the engine block. An engine that is kept warm with a circulating heater or with one that is plugged into the block can usually be started easily, but the oil is not heated and it provides very little lubrication at first. Consequently, the most engine wear occurs during the few minutes immediately after starting.

The ideal situation, of course, is to have a heater for both the engine block and the oil pan. Owners of cars with air-cooled engines like the old Volkswagen beetle know that the oil pan heaters are the only kind of heater that the engine will take (aside from dipstick heaters, and the less said about them, the better).

The answer to the problem given above is that the engine would be technically worn out after just 144 hours of cold operation. Realistically though, those 144 hours represent an awful lot of cold starts.

As startup the engine is cold (pressure high, temperature low)
As the engine warms up (pressure low, temperature high)
As the rpms increase (pressure up, temperature up)
At some point the oil begins to thin (temperature up, pressure down)
Ideal oil temperature is between 180-220F
ZDDP:

Remember all my talk about the brand you choose not being so important? Times are a changing but it's not 100% clear what's happening and what is the best action to take.

Oil contains many performance enhancing additives:

Detergents - keep the engine parts clean
Dispersants - keep contaminant from clumping together
Friction Modifiers - reduce wear and improve fuel efficiency
Antioxidants
Rust Inhibitors - prevent corrosion by acids
Pour Point Depressants - keeps oil fluid at low temps
Antifoam Agents
Seal Conditioners - swell elastomeric engine seals
Metal Deactivators - reduce oxidation
Viscosity Modifiers - makes multi-grade oils possible
Antiwear/EP agents - compounds (like ZDDP) that bond to metal to prevent wear

READ THE LINKS, theres a ton of useful info

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/which-oil-what-viscosity.1334/

http://transmissionrepairguy.com/transmission-cooler/

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1334

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=5037

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3536

http://www.classiccarmotoroil.com/articles.html

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3519

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=615

http://autos.yahoo.com/maintain/repairq ... 120_2.html

http://www.ratwell.com/technical/OilSelection.html#tnp

http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic ... rature.htm

http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

BTW I DON,T KNOW WHO SELLS THESE BUT IVE GOT TWO ON MY CORVETTES OIL FILTERS AND THEY EASILY REDUCE OIL TEMPS 7-15 DEGREES the ones I have are about 6" long and fit about 90% of the diam of the filter
they still sell these and you could modify them or use as designed

Amazon.com

Mesa Performance..Cool Collar Test Data

Mesa Performance..Oil Coolers

this lower designs what Ive used for decades

the t-stat controls COOLANT temps,
which are generally 15F-25F lower than peak oil temps,
obviously the coolant temps vary as the t-stat opens allowing flow ,
and closes as temps drop off.
your oil temp may read only 10F hotter than the coolant temps,
but its a fact that oil temps vary a great deal during the trip from sump,
oil pump, valve train,and bearings and back to the oil pan sump.
get out a high quality infrared temp gun, and scan the valve springs after 10 minutes of engine run time,
youll notice the oil temp on the rockers is significantly cooler than that flowing over the valve springs
this is the most consistently accurate I.R temp gun I've used for testing

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/e...1100200223789&utm_content=All Extech Products
INFRARED TEMP GUN
Wide temperature range from -58 to 1832Â°F (-50 to 1000Â°C)
any time that your dealing with a potential temperature issue or a trouble issue where
, knowing the exact temperature vs what a gauge might say,
\it helps to have a handy and accurate infrared temp gun handy,
to locate and confirm heat, levels.

grumpyvette · Sep 21, 2012

"HEY grumpy, my engines just not running as well as it used too and I found fine metallic dust in the heads , when I went to adjust the valves and on the dip stick when I checked the oil level, when I did the last oil change,I saw that same metallic dust in the oil pan, IT looked like fine glitter, I know that can,t be good! now what?"

you can expect things like this if its allowed to continue

fact! if you have significant amounts of metal shavings on your dip stick you have significant metallic debris in your oil pan, and your oil pump IS sucking them up and forcing them thru its gears and toward the oil filter , SOME of that metallic trash ALWAYS bypasses the oil filter eventually, and the oil pump is subjected to increased wear.
sounds like a cam or lifters or some valve train components wearing rapidly and the metallic trash is bound to eventually destroy your bearings ETC.
your engine WILL continue to wear at an increased rate and failure to pull it down and correct the problem is just prolonging and increasing the potential for increased damage or catastrophic failure.

its time to pull it down, inspect, locate and correct any potential problem areas before things get worse
NEVER GUESS, DEAL IN PROVEN FACT!
Id get out the plasti-gauge and check clearances, don,t guess , know exactly what your dealing with!
if the clearance falls in spec and the bearings look decent they can be re-used, but its foolish to do so if they look overly dirty, worn or don't have the correct clearances
lots of moly assembly lube and spraying any potential moving contact surface with moly spray (like bearings ,lifters rockers) and liberal use of moly assembly lube during the break-in process helps reduce wear issues
keep in mind ALL engines run on USED BEARINGS AND RINGS,LIFTERS,ROCKERS AND CAMS, simply because the first time you start the engine, all the components are no longer new ,out of the box parts,
yes both rings and bearings and contact surfaces like rockers, cam lobes and lifter bases benefit from a coat of moly spray and moly assembly lube
they are now USED PARTS.. but coating all the friction surfaces with a good slick layer of moly based lubricants to protect them until the flow of warm pressurized oil can form a protective barrier is simply smart insurance, especially because moly embeds into micro surfaces, and forms a very effective secondary protective layer of lubricant.

Molybdenum is a very hard metal with a number of industrial uses.
It is combined with chromium in steel to make the steel harder and more resistant to bending. Most of the bicycle frames produced today use chromium and molybdenum steel. Because the steel is so much harder, the manufacturers can use less, thereby making the frame lighter.

Molybdenum Disulfide (Moly) has been used for decades in lubricating pastes and greases because it is extremely slippery and forms a protective coating on metal parts.

Moly exists as microscopic hexagonal crystal platelets Several molecules make up one of these platelets. A single molecule of Moly contains two sulfur atoms and one molybdenum atom. Moly platelets are attracted to metal surfaces. This attraction and the force of moving engine parts rubbing across one another provide the necessary thermochemical reaction necessary for Moly to form an overlapping protective coating like armor on all of your engine parts. This protective armor coating has a number of properties that are very beneficial for your engine.

The Moly platelets that make up the protective layers on your engine surfaces slide across one another very easily. Instead of metal rubbing against metal, you have Moly platelets moving across one another protecting and lubricating the metal engine parts.

This coating effectively fills in the microscopic pores that cover the surface of all engine parts, making them smoother. This feature is important in providing an effective seal on the combustion chamber. By filling in the craters and pores Moly improves this seal allowing for more efficient combustion and engine performance.

This overlapping coating of Moly also gives protection against loading (perpendicular) forces. These forces occur on the bearings, and lifters. The high pressures that occur between these moving parts tend to squeeze normal lubricants out.

Eventually, there is metal to metal contact, which damages these moving parts and creates large amounts of heat. Fortunately, this is not the case with some lubricants.The layer of moly that forms on these moving surfaces can withstand pressures of 500,000 psi, without being squeezed out.

Engineers and scientists have tried for years to use Moly in motor oils but they had been unsuccessful because they could not find a way to keep Moly in suspension. Once Moly was put into suspension it would gradually settle out. It was easy to see it come out of suspension because a black sludge would collect on the bottom of the oil containers. In engines it would settle to the bottom of the crankcase or clog oil pathways and filters.

Engineers have overcome these obstacles. They have developed a process that keeps Moly in suspension and isn’t filtered out. Since that time theproduct has undergone extensive independent testing in labs and in the field for many years to insure that the product stands up to the rigorous needs of today’s engines. With the plating action of Moly reducing friction which reduces heat, this helps keep rings free from carbon buildup, prevents blow-by, decreases emission, and extends oil life.
http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3536

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=120

http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/do...e_design_for_high_performance_engine_bearings

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=117

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=52

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=282

bytor · Sep 21, 2012

Good read, it got me thinking.

Whats to keep someone from installing a temp sensor identical to what your using for your water coolant sensor in your 7qt oil pan. Then use a two position switch to 'share' the temperature gauge in the car to monitor coolant and oil temperature. That way you could get a decent indication of oil temp at will.

Indycars · Sep 21, 2012

The best part about your idea is there are no changes needed to your
dash. Important if you don't want to cut into the dash for another gauge.

oil temps and engine wear

grumpyvette

Administrator

Choosing and Using Engine Oil Coolers - Pegasus Auto Racing Supplies

grumpyvette

Administrator

bytor

Well-Known Member

Indycars

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