opinion on selecting budget 383 heads

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.
Staff member
I have a fairly mild SBC 383 stroker (actually 385, 4.040" x 3.750") that's in my sig. It has Summit/Dart Vortec Heads which are nothing more then Dart Iron Eagle S/S 170cc late model heads with Vortec style intake face.

So I'd like to switch to a hydraulic roller cam and a better set of heads. I'm liking the Crower Cam pt# 00468 225°/232° dur. @.050", 277°/286° ave. dur., .535"/.550" lift, 110 LSA.

There are a ton of heads in this range. I don't necessarily need aluminum heads. Some of the heads I've been looking at-
Iron heads there are the Dart Iron Eagle 180, Chevrolet Performance Vortec Small Port Bowtie Cylinder Heads 185.
Aluminum heads are Dart SHP 180, Brodix IK 180 ($1000 for a assembled pair), Pro-Filer 185 (kind of liking these the most).

My current heads have 67cc combustion chambers. I'd go with 64cc comb. chams. on my new heads. That'll bump my compression up a tad. From 9.1:1 to maybe 9.4:1. Which should be a good thing.

Probably going to replace my Edelbrock AVS 650 with a Holley 4150, 650 w/vac. sec's, elec. choke (0-80783C). Of course the correct Edelbrock Per. RPM non-air gap intake too.

This isn't a racecar, it's driver and a fun car. Not looking to get every last bit of performance from it at the cost of drivability and fun. Opinions?

NYH1.
you obviously have dozens of options, but Id suggest you do some research and nof fall for internet hype, that suggests, after building dozens of SBC engines a set of 195cc-200 cc heads on a 383 sbc has been repeatedly well proven to be very well matched, for brisk street performance.
youll loose a ton of torque if the port size is slightly larger,
your cylinder head flow rates,
the engines dynamic compression ratio,
the intake manifold and header design,
your exhaust back-pressure,
the cam timing and duration and LSA,
should be matched to maximize exhaust scavenging of the cylinders in the intended power band,
those factors FAR out weight the intake port volume as significant factors in how your engine will run
even for your non-race application on a 383 Id select a 195cc minimum port size,
and on anything I was seriously looking for performance,
a set of 210cc heads would certainly be selected over the smaller port sizes,

you won,t loose anything on the low and mid rpm band but will find minimal gains above about 4500 rpm with that cam
Id also suggest you carefully recalculate the engines compression ratio and dynamic compression with that cam and any heads you select,
you may find a 64-67 cc combustion chamber a bit too small on a 383 too use pump gas, generally youll want the dynamic compression near 8:1
read the links it could easily prevent you wasting money and time.
a day spent in reading linked research could save you weeks and over a $1000 is wasted cash

https://www.profilerperformance.com/176-sbc-23-degree-heads.html


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/tbucket-engine-project-dart-shp.3814/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/sellecting-cylinder-heads.796/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-springs-and-setting-up-the-valve-train.181/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/more-port-flow-related-info.322/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/port-speeds-and-area.333/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-between-shorty-and-full-length-headers.1303/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/is-backpressure-hurting-your-combo.495/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-combustion-chambers.2630/page-3#post-77963

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ding-sbc-crate-engine-heads.13041/#post-69328

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-a-383-sbc-combo-planing.12168/#post-58778

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...train-clearances-and-problems.528/#post-57678

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/383-information-overload.11137/#post-49857
 
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profiler
185cc with 2.02 Valves

.200 135 110
.300 201 145
.400 245 180
.500 265 206
.600 270 213

195cc with 2.02 Valves. Same exhaust port as 185cc.

.200 145 110
.300 209 145
.400 254 180
.500 273 206
.600 274 213

flow numbers on a Profiler 210 AS CAST (no cnc porting) with a valve job and gasket match

tested a 28" with a 4.155 bore fixture

Intake 2.08 valve
.100 74 cfm
.200 135 cfm
.300 197 cfm
.400 243 cfm
.500 282 cfm
.600 290 cfm
.700 295 cfm
.800 299 cfm

Exhaust 1.60 valve test with a 1-3/4 pipe 3" long

.100 59 cfm
.200 112 cfm
.300 162 cfm
.400 189 cfm
.500 205 cfm
.600 212 cfm
.700 221 cfm
.800 228 cfm

below is some unrelated DART heads, but even with those the difference between the 180 vs 215 port size seems to favor the over 185 cc ports
port1.jpg

port2.jpg

port3.jpg


IF your willing to read and learn , building a 450hp-550hp 383 SBC is not that difficult, but I can tell you from decades of building them, that most guys will find "DEALS" on mis-matched components too save a few bucks and skimp on quality components and precision machine work, and the result generally hurts both durability and performance a great deal as a result.
ID suggest you do detailed research, and a properly matched set of aftermarket aluminum heads that flow at least 250 cfm at .500 lift and a compression ratio near 9.5:1 for pump gas is a good starting point.
read the links and sub-links below carefully.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/tbucket-engine-project-dart-shp.3814/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...383-build-that-is-now-going-to-be-a-400.7804/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/cam-help-for-new-383-build.13099/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-selecting-budget-383-heads.14620/#post-78229
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-a-383-sbc-combo-planing.12168/#post-71932
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/tweaking-a-350-383.13087/#post-68195

matching the piston dish to the vortec combustion chamber and maximizing the quench area,
tends to reduce detonation, improve and speed up the combustion efficiency

26603d1139171792-piston-deck-measurement-clearance-squishband.jpg

attachment.php




ID suggest you select from heads from these sources
Jegs; 800/345-4545; Jegs.com

Summit Racing; 800/230-3030; SummitRacing.com

Scoggin-Dickey Parts Center; 800/456-0211; ScogginDickey.com


TRICKFLOW
http://www.trickflow.com/egnsearch.asp? ... 4294867081
http://www.trickflow.com/customerservice
1-330-630-1555 • 1-888-841-6556

BRODIX
http://www.brodix.com/heads/heads.html
479.394.1075

DART
http://www.dartheads.com/products/cylinder-heads
Dart Machinery; 248/362-1188; DartHeads.com


AIR FLOW RESEARCH
http://www.airflowresearch.com/
toll free: 877-892-8844
tel: 661-257-8124

Patriot Performance
Patriot Performance; 888/462-8276; Patriot-Performance.com


RHS
http://www.racingheadservice.com/rhs/cylinder-headshtml
Toll Free: 877-776-4323
Local: 901-259-1134

EDELBROCK
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new ... main.shtml
Edelbrock; 310/781-2222; Edelbrock.com

BMP (world products)
http://www.theengineshop.com/products/cylinder-heads
Tel: 631-737-0372
Fax: 631-737-0467

BUTLER PERFORMANCE
http://www.butlerperformance.com/products/cylinder_heads/cylinder_head_labor.html
866-762-7527

BLUE PRINT ENGINES
http://www.blueprintengines.com/ind...sb-chevy-aluminum-cylinder-heads-cnc-machined
1800-483-4263

PRO-FILER
https://www.profilerperformance.com/
937‐846‐1333



“Quality means doing it right when no one is looking.”
Henry Ford

“Quality is like buying oats. If you want nice, clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse ... that comes a little cheaper.”

an hour to a week spent in careful research,
before you buy or install parts,
can save you months or frustration
and easily 300%-to 500% of the eventually,
cost incurred in buying cheaper parts,in this hobby!

while a manual transmission like a muncie has traditionally been used in performance muscle cars , the current technology with a higher than stock stall speed converter and a decently strong auto transmission like a properly built TH400 or $l80E makes the rather common 450-500 hp 383 small block a much more reasonable combo, with decent durability.
Ive built dozens of 383-406 SBC engines and properly configured and assembled 383-406 SBC engines are fully able to shred a stock 700r4/700r style auto transmission, over time as both transmissions were designed to operate with engines providing no more than 400 ft lbs of torque.
RELATED INFO, theres a great deal here you should read
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=8460

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccrp-1209-eight-budget-sbc-head-shootout/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/83138-choosing-best-small-block-heads/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/0606ch-cylinder-head-performance-test/

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2010/01/street-performance-cylinder-heads/

https://www.airflowresearch.com/articles/Misc/flog/flog.php

http://www.competitionproducts.com/...c-Bare-Pair/productinfo/PMX9317/#.V2m23PkrLcc


http://www.wallaceracing.com/chokepoint.php

http://www.wallaceracing.com/chokepoint-rpm.php

http://www.wallaceracing.com/calc-cfm-head.php

http://www.wallaceracing.com/ca-calc.php

http://www.wallaceracing.com/csa-calc.php

http://www.wallaceracing.com/area-under-curve.php

http://www.wallaceracing.com/calchpaf.php

http://www.wallaceracing.com/throttle-blade-diameter.php

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...mble-and-swirl-quench-squish.4081/#post-12283

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...alves-and-polishing-combustion-chambers.2630/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/port-speeds-and-area.333/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-seat-angles-and-air-flow.8460/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/header-dimension-calculator.15013/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/more-port-flow-related-info.322/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-by-step-guide-with-pictures.5378/#post-73427

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...llecting-cylinder-heads.796/page-2#post-90819

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-combustion-chambers.2630/page-3#post-77963

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/the-new-215cc-vortec-heads.266/#post-75012

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2006/11/wet-flow-testing/

https://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-40-wet-flow-revelations-the-monsoon-inside-your-motor/

https://www.musclecardiy.com/cylinder-heads/the-basics-of-wet-flow-cylinder-head-testing-part-4/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ir-ratios-that-gets-ignored.15506/#post-95741

https://www.airflowresearch.com/wet-flow-development/

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/cylinder-head-flow-bench/

https://www.chevydiy.com/airflow-basics-for-chevy-small-block-cylinder-heads/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/sucp-0803-performance-cylinder-head-comparison

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/port-speeds-and-area.333/#post-72826



 
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Thank you Grumpy.
That's more like three days reading but I for one am blown away and I'm going to read every link.

Related question, would you agree or disagree with this statement?

"Durations around 218 are better for torque but will give up higher rpm power (HP)."

If that's true, what would picking something with that low duration but a lot of lift do (like .560)?
 
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the answer depends a good deal on what size or displacement engine ,we are talking about, and the drive train.
whats its compression ratio and several other factors like is it EFI or carbureted, do you have headers and a low flow restriction exhaust,
(transmission and differential gearing matter) but if were talking your typical 350-383, in a typical daily driven street car, , yes thats a mostly valid statement
theres a limit on the lift to duration ratio, The 47.5% rule applies (read links)
if you want to avoid rapid valve train wear and stability loss issues

and yeah use of 1.6:1 roller rockers and a roller lifter cam allows you to get more lift on a limited duration.
 
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Thank you grumpy. Looks like a 220 duration would give me the rpm powerband I want, and with a 200cc high flowing head and 2800 stall on a 700r4... I'd basically have a tire spinner all day every day. I was going to go with 1800cc heads because people told me that's better for torque on a 383, but your posts above convinced me to go slightly larger to the 200cc (and 220 is too big).

Just need to figure out if I'll be able to drive on the interstate with 28 inch tires at 2,800rpm at 75mph.

Other concern is that "Pre-Vizard" (I respect him but don't enjoy the videos) I was told to stay away from anything with LSA below 110 as I wouldn't have any vacuum to speak of for brakes. With this short duration cam and lsa of 108 Vizards videos have convinced me to go with, how are people able to have any brakes? Just need a sentence to google to see what setup they are doing. This is my only daily driver so brakes and AC (kids go to school in it) are important.
 
If that's true, what would picking something with that low duration but a lot of lift do (like .560)?

if your looking at .560 lift youll find most cams with that lift in a SBC have a bit more duration like these



 
if your looking at .560 lift youll find most cams with that lift in a SBC have a bit more duration like these



Okay so what you're saying is since I should be going for lower duration to be in the rpm band I want, I won't find lift that big. Understood.

Edit: this is not going as well as I thought it would. Seems all the numbers I put together from various things I read don't actually pan out in the real world as being offered. 220-226 duration with 108LSA and atleast .480 lift isn't a thing. Vizard hates anything above 108LSA so I'm struggling here.
 
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david visard may be 100% correct as to max potential, making torque/ power
but he does not have to listen to the wife bitch if the car does not drive flawlessly in traffic either :facepalm:
why not call several cam manufacturers tech guys and ask what they would suggest,
and once you have at least 4-5 suggestions select the AVERAGE duration/lift and LSA, of the 4-5 suggested cams
and look for the cam that most closely matched the average specs,
don't worry or concern yourself with the LSA too much,
it's not going to be a huge factor in the power curve in a cam with that low of duration,
you could use a 110-112 LSA and only lose a few potential peak hp,

what you might lose, is minimal, in peak torque and hp is compensated for,
by lower emissions , BETTER BRAKE VACUUM READINGS and better driveability at lower rpms
if your going with a flat tappet hydraulic cam, swapping to rhodes lifters reduces the effective duration at lower rpms but gives you back the effective duration once the rpms exceed about 3500 rpm
ASK rhodes lifters if they make a similar roller lifter if you plan on going with hydraulic roller lifters,

Id be looking for a cam, for a daily driven 383 sbc application
Id be looking for a cam with about a max of 215/218 duration, a .480-500 lift and a 110-112 LSA for your application

and even that cam would benefit from a 2800 rpm stall converter
and if available Id use rhodes lifters if they are available for your application, and yes they tend to tick, or click audibly just a bit when properly adjusted so they sound just a bit like properly adjusted solid flat tappet lifters, if the sewing machine clicking with Rhodes lifters would make you or your wife nuts don't use Rhodes lifters
and use 1.6:1 roller rockers




checking piston to valve clearances

this is an old post I got asked to repost, naturally the first step is to install and correctly degree in your cam, http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/measuring-piston-dome-volume.17255/...
garage.grumpysperformance.com

Does Different Pushrod Length Change Valve To Piston Clearance

Guys, I went from an incorrect length (8.950) to a correct length (9.034) pushrod. Does that change valve to piston clearance? I compensated for the shorter pushrods with the lash adjuster screw. In fact I "compensated right out of oil circulation" with T&D Rockers. Now that I have the correct...
garage.grumpysperformance.com

valve train clearances and problems

you might want to read thru these links and sub links it will help you avoid costly mistakes http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66830/overview/ https://www.harborfreight.com/multipositional-magnetic-base-with-fine-adjustment-5645.html...
garage.grumpysperformance.com

sellecting valve springs, and setting up the valve train

How do you determine the spring pressure needed to keep the valves under control for a given lift, duration, and max rpm. It might take you several hours to read thru all the links and sub links but its time very well spent as it could save your engine from destruction and save you thousands of...
garage.grumpysperformance.com

rocker/push rod wear issues

Put vortec heads on my L98 and ordered 1417 1.52 Roller Rockers and 7808 Pushrods from CompCams. Installed screw in rocker studs with guide tool before assembly of the engine. Checked valve geometry and the roller left a mark right on the center of the valve like its supposed to. Oil pressure...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
 
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Well you spelled it out for me Grumpy. I'll just do what you said as far as a cam profile thank you. And the lifters.

Seems like I'm just dealing with information overload and am looking for torque out of a cam when I shouldn't be. Per this guy, you can't get low rpm torque from a cam:


I'm so confused with all the different experts telling me different thing.

Then this guy says I should be slapping a cam in with like 106 LSA, 208 duration; and no overlap:



I'm about ready to throw in the towel as far as understanding what I'm doing. I've been wearing people out with questions, like you today, and I've been reading non stop daily for months trying to pick a cam. You just told me exactly what i need though so that is helpful.
 
torque is mostly the result of the engines displacement and efficiently burning the fuel/air mix to produce pressure above the piston.
pressure can reach 600 -800 plus psi , but rpm effectively controls the number of power strokes per second, and remember pressure falls rapidly, and by the time the piston had dropped as the crank has rotated about 30 degrees past TDC its dropped very significantly
and as previously stated having a 2800 rpm stall converter greatly enhances the potential power curve the cam upgrade could produce as it allows a more rapid and smooth transition into the cams most effective power range. and use of 1.6:1 roller rockers add significanly increased flow and probably 15-20 extra hp due to both better flow and reduced friction.


use these calc and related links
USE THE CALCULATORS to match port size to intended rpm levels... but keep in mind valve lift and port flow limitations
http://www.wallaceracing.com/runnertorquecalc.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/ca-calc.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/area-under-curve.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/chokepoint.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/header_length.php
http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/1 ... ch_engine/


proper header design can have a big effect on the torque curve.
given the info you posted the cam I suggested is or should be a decent match in my experience,
as stated why not contact 4-5 cam tech department's and get their thoughts / suggestions as a starting point
2016-02-26_16-51-06.jpg

Cylinder-Pressure-Lrg.gif


fe008cfd.gif


herbert cams 714-491 -2267
duration_v_rpm_range_wintakemanifold01_b2df3f98be614a599705bb1f0b557d37f1804ad2.jpg


camcomp_dde0b24eebe620648f972b4209584cb660843f2a.jpg
LiftCurveAread.gif


LSAChart01.jpg
 
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Perfect.
I've got some reading to do then I'll make a thread with my "build" in a week and get everyone's feedback.
This is the best forum on the internet I'm surprised I've never heard of it. The owner guru admin responds to NEWBIES without getting mad.
 
I REALLY TRY! :like: I try to help members AVOID all the crap I went through ,
during my learning process thus speeding up your learning curve and reducing your costs
and theres several lots of experienced guys on the site like RICK!
(and a dozen plus others)
READ THRU THESE THREAD's and sub links
YEAH IT WILL TAKE A WHILE!
but youll learn a great deal in the process
(and lots of links as he progressed)
RICK ask questions and did a great job at following suggestions
the result was his skills increased and he built an impressive engine designed to match his particular application



BUY A FEW BOOKS ON ENGINE REBUILDING AND PROPER ENGINE ASSEMBLY
AND READ THROGH THEM CAREFULLY,
ITS MONEY VERY WELL SPENT!

51Dfu8o7JtL._AC_UY218_.jpg



s-l500.jpg


s-l1600.jpg



s-l500.jpg
 
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Grumpy I emailed Rhodes but it appears they DO have a Rhodes solution for hydraulic roller cams.
And, that IndyCars user and his build and the work put into it sets a REALLY high bar. He smoothed out his entire block and even matched his oil pump. Is that man single without kids?!?

 
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HRS-91113FB-1_s.jpg
I don't see a roller on that lifter???
cca-850-16.jpg

related info the stock OEM hydraulic roller lifters with the sheet steel spider retainer don't work very well with lifts over .500 or at rpms over 6000 rpm in some engines
ccrp_0710_03_z-hydraulic_roller_cams-87_small_block_engine.jpg
bentspiderspring.jpg
bentspiderspring1a.jpg

generally linked lifters are superior

ST2112BBR-1.jpg
 
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That's a really good point it just said it's for a hydraulic roller... but that can't be the lifter.
 
Is that man single without kids?!?
No I have two kids and been married 40 years now. Did you notice how long
it took me? It didn't happen in a couple of months!!

When you start your build thread, then I can do some computer simulations with the Dynomation software I have. I will post a list of the info I need to get started, assuming that you want to go that direction.. It's a good way to explore different camshafts and compare them side-by-side. Just let me know.

.
 
I mea
No I have two kids and been married 40 years now. Did you notice how long
it took me? It didn't happen in a couple of months!!

When you start your build thread, then I can do some computer simulations with the Dynomation software I have. I will post a list of the info I need to get started, assuming that you want to go that direction.. It's a good way to explore different camshafts and compare them side-by-side. Just let me know.

.
I meant no offense; your attention to detail was impressive and a little daunting for someone that wants to go from block to running in 24 months.
You cleaned everything; and port matched your oil pump.
 
No offense taken!!! I probably came across a little stern, I should have put a couple of smiley faces in my comment above.
 
Well you spelled it out for me Grumpy. I'll just do what you said as far as a cam profile thank you. And the lifters.

Seems like I'm just dealing with information overload and am looking for torque out of a cam when I shouldn't be. Per this guy, you can't get low rpm torque from a cam:

I'm so confused with all the different experts telling me different thing.

Then this guy says I should be slapping a cam in with like 106 LSA, 208 duration; and no overlap:



I'm about ready to throw in the towel as far as understanding what I'm doing. I've been wearing people out with questions, like you today, and I've been reading non stop daily for months trying to pick a cam. You just told me exactly what i need though so that is helpful.
That guy is way out on a limb by himself. I'd be very careful taking his pretty extreme opinions on cams, especially LSAs and overlap.

To catch up some of the other guys on here who aren't on that FB group thread, Scott Hatch, the author of those videos believe that "except on race engines, cam overlap is bad" and that overlap only helps engine performance (including in a 23 deg SBC) at high RPMs and otherwise hurts performance and you should try to build all street engines with zero or as close to zero overlap as you can get...

He's pretty immovable on it.

Does anyone have Grumpy's awesome chart on overlap and cubic inches and "categories" of cams handy? -That chart is very useful to this discussion and I couldn't find it in a quick search...


Adam
 
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