Disappointed with new brake calipers...

DorianL

solid fixture here in the forum
Staff member
My stock calipers with OEM rotors and polymatrix D Wilwood pads worked reasonably well... but of course I wanted better.

I put on some twin-piston calipers from SSBC. Nice pieces, BTW...

The breaks are sensitive to input at higher speeds and that is nice.

BUT, I can't get them to do emergency stops no matter how hard I press the pedal (and after break-in + 200 miles). OEM + polymatrix D + stock booster and master cylinder would.

Could it be I should replace the stock rotor? Would resurfacing the stock rotor suffice?

THANKS

D.

Additional question - why so many different rotors for the same app on Summit? In description, there's nothing to tell them apart. except $$$$
 
DorianL said:
My stock calipers with OEM rotors and polymatrix D Wilwood pads worked reasonably well... but of course I wanted better.

I put on some twin-piston calipers from SSBC. Nice pieces, BTW...

The breaks are sensitive to input at higher speeds and that is nice.

BUT, I can't get them to do emergency stops no matter how hard I press the pedal (and after break-in + 200 miles). OEM + polymatrix D + stock booster and master cylinder would.

Could it be I should replace the stock rotor? Would resurfacing the stock rotor suffice?

THANKS

D.

Additional question - why so many different rotors for the same app on Summit? In description, there's nothing to tell them apart. except $$$$
You say they are sensitive to input, but they won't do an emergency stop. Do you mean they won't lockup the wheels???
How does the total surface area of the pistons compare between your old and new calipers??? If the surface area went down, then your clamping force in the new calipers is lower. It's a long shot, but a possibility.
Did you change the master cylinder???
 
They are standard-sized pads. The master cylinder is the same... only thing that changed are the calipers. extra pistons...

I am wondering if rotors are glazed from old pads...
 
your new master cylinder, or brake booster may not be matched too, the new calipers, your new master cylinder, must provide, and be compatible with,and matched too, and supply the calipers with the correct VOLUME and PRESSURE that the NEW BRAKE CALIPERS are designed to function with, the master cylinder bore and volume of fluid must be close to the same as stock, if you reduce the master cylinder volume it increases the pressure but decreases the volume of brake fluid forced into the calipers, if the calipers have a larger volume it may require more fluid and will require more pressure when you swap from a single piston caliper to dual cylinder calipers the volume required is very likely to have changed ,AS IS, the ratio of brake fluid required between the front and rear calipers, obviously a discussion with the brake caliper manufacturer should give your the answers in that regard, and probably a suggestion or two on the best master cylinder or other components to use.
Id also verify the vacuum supplied by the engine, most boosters are designed to operate with a MINIMUM of 18" of vacuum supplied to the booster and with many radical engine combos thats NOT being supplied

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...en-do-you-inspect-the-brakes-condition.15187/


http://www.ssbrakes.com/ssbc-products/s ... -products/

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-part ... /brake.htm

http://www.ssbrakes.com/tech-info-faqs/faqs/


Disc brake calipers are basically hydraulic slave cylinders mounted in a floating bracket that maintain the brake pad alignment,allow the application of hydraulic pressure and dissipate heat, as they force the disc brake pads against the spinning rotor that's been mechanically locked to the axle.

disc-brake3.jpg

ScriptedZ-06Calipers3.jpg


http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-part ... brake1.htm

DISC BRAKE ROTORS basically are the surface the pads apply friction to and those spinning disc rotors on their outer surface ,those discs are usually equipped with internal vents that use centrifugal force to throw air ,outward as they spin thru vents so the air absorbs and dissipates the heat efficiently that's sucked into the inner hub area by the discs low pressure , near the axle to cool them , as the airs thrown out thru the outer edges

disc brake pads are the surface between the two and they take a great deal of abuse and a higher percentage of the wear and heat than the other components
in most cases its the composition of the brake pad material and the mechanical condition of those brake pads ,the temperature increase during its operation cycle, the surface area,of both the pad and its matched rotor surface and the amount of hydraulic pressure applied that will determine the efficiency of the brakes


larger diam brake rotors usually offer more surface area, better cooling efficiency and greater mechanical leverage on the axle
but its the pads and what those pads are made from and the heat levels that are a huge factor in how the brakes function, but the rotor surface must be fairly consistent,in thickness,reasonably flat and clean to work correctly

0407.jpg

if your in doubt Id change out the brake fluid,to a higher heat resistant type like the racing cars generally select, bleed the brakes,resurface the rotors and swap to a high quality brake pad,
(ceramic pads tend to wear the rotors a bit faster but they also tend to work well under high heat and load conditions)
brake pad material must match the intended heat levels,some brake materials work fine at normal heat levels but if stressed under extreme heat they form a layer of high pressure gases between the rotor and pad surface and don,t grip consistently, some brake fluid will not maintain pressure if subjected to extreme heat,


READ THESE threads and sub links for a good deal more info

 
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I owned a 1969 440cid manual transmission road runner at one time ,that had optional disc brakes that flat out sucked,
it turned out that the dealership had installed the optional brakes, on a car that originally did not have those brakes, but had not swapped out the master cylinder , and when that was eventually upgraded it made a huge difference.
 
Holy Crap!!!!! Now that's a ton of awesome information! Wow. Thanks!

I selected these SSBC calipers because they were supposed to be a direct swap. Volume and pressure were supposed to be compatible with the stock master cylinder.

Will certainly call SSBC. I just wanted to be a bit more informed before I call them.

In stock, at idle, i was pulling 14 inches. It worked ok... I would not be against a new master cylinder and booster.

Might even rear disc conversion (using wrecking yard parts) for my chevelle. Will start looking into that too. There's no excuse for this car not stopping and stopping very well. This lack of lockup is positively annoying.
 
Right. Will be ordering a corvette style master cylinder 15/16 plus an electric vacuum pump, just to be sure...

Stay tuned!
 
RICK L
posted this info


Dorian,

The A185-S calipers have twin 43mm bores. The bore area is 4.486 sq. in. Compare that to the stock caliper's single 2-15/16" bore, with an area of 6.777 sq. in.

So you have 4.486/6.777 = .662 or 66% of the clamping force with your new calipers compared to stock ones, if you use the stock master cylinder.

Since the stock calipers work well with a 1-1/8" bore master cylinder, you need to downsize your master cylinder bore by a factor of 4.486/6.777 in area. That works out to a .915" bore. That's just smaller than 15/16", so a 15/16" bore is what I'd choose. I think that some GM cars in the late 70s had a 15/16" master cylinder (Nova maybe). Or perhaps a late model Corvette.

You're going to have 44% more clamping force with a 15/16" bore m/c.

A 7/8" bore master cylinder (.875") would probably work too. I think there are late model Corvettes with this bore too.

Be careful to match up the pushrod cup depth to your current setup as you search for a master cylinder.

David,
You may not find a Chevelle/Monte application with a 1" bore. But the manual brake C3 Corvette master cylinder is 1". Again, be sure to match up the pushrod cup. The C3 m/c will have a deep cup. If you have a booster, you may have a shallow cup.
 
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WIL-260-9439/

http://www.classicperform.com/Store/Str ... MC116L.htm


Right. Called them. They said that their corvette style 15/16 master cylinder would bolt on to my booster. They were concerned it would be too touchy. Hmmmm. In stock configuration I did not find it touchy at all. I felt that the lockup came in a bit late. They recommended a 1-inch piston. At $59, I can afford a mistake. They did say however that 14 inches of vacuum was low and did recommend a vacuum pump.

adding an electric brake booster vacume pump, will allow your brake booster to work far more efficiently

http://www.autoanything.com/brakes/69A3151A0A0.aspx
ssbc_electric_vacuum_pump_28146.jpg
 
Right. Finally sprang for a 1-inch M/C piston. I spoke to the classic performance people twice and both recommended a one-inch piston. They said the 15/16 would be too sensitive with a vacuum pump and an 11-inch booster. Rick was very convincing... But two guys with a cumulative 10 years of experience persuaded me to go for one inch. At $59 it won't be a huge goof if it doesn't work out... I'll give 'em a bit of grief if I have to order their 15/16 anyway.

Ordered an electric vacuum pump from summit.

As well as a new dipstick to replace the one I tossed in the bushes in a flat rage... Never found it back. :mrgreen:

Stay tuned!

D.

BTW, the guys at classic performance suggest that the vacuum pump might be enough.... Said that my 12-14 inches of Hg might be playing tricks on me... They think that will make most of the improvement.
 
been there dozens of times, and whats even more frustrating is when they occasionally ship only part of your order or the wrong parts!
 
'can already start wrenching. Increase in vacuum will certainly help me immeditately...

Look like a nice piece BTW...
 
I imagine Saturday... only question is if I'll find a booster gromet and check valve. For the moment, I am using AN-6 steelbraid and fittings.

The master cylinder might take a little more time as it is from a small shop in the US.

Still I think this should be a significant improvement...

Might yank off the booster to repaint it...
 
Right, the vacuum pump is on there... Will test tomorrow.

Stay tuned,

D.
 
Will certainly have some tomorrow. Dusk came on fast and surprised me. A mistake in printed instructions threw me for a while...
 
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