My Cam Research for the Experts Eye

[TXChevy]

Here's the link to the catalogs:

MAHLE Aftermarket North America | MAHLE Aftermarket | Catalog PDFs

MAHLE catalogs to search for engine bearings, filters, gaskets, pistons, piston rings, turbochargers, thermostats, and heavy duty products often used for commercial use. These products can be used for light vehicles, performance vehicles, and motorsports.

www.mahle-aftermarket.com

 

[Indycars]

Thanks!

I see there is a lot of good information in the catalog besides the specs for each bearing.

 

[TXChevy]

Yes, it's a good info source.

Found something curious on the ARP main cap stud kit. Block is a 2 bolt main, torque spec for stock bolts is 95 ft lb. The ARP stud kit calls for 3 steps to get to 110 ft lb, using their lube.
I expected to see a lower torque spec for the studs but there's no mistake in the instructions.

I also noticed that there's no lube on the studs even though the shop line bored the block using the new ARP studs. So it seems they were tightened dry. Plus the ARP washers were still in the bag.
Didn't really like seeing that.

I'll use the ARP lube/washers and torque the caps to verify the bore dimensions.

 

[Grumpy]

main cap studs, studs are NOT torqued into the block!
studs are screwed into the block for the full thread length then backed out 1/2 turn,
STUDS are installed through the main caps, before the nuts and washers are installed,
I generally oil the threads on the lower stud threads in the block,
but no loads are applied to the studs until the threads in the block are full length engaged,
into the block and the washers & nuts on the studs are tightened.
yes use ARP Ultra-Torque fastener assembly lube on the threads.
on the main caps studs exposed fine threads, you use the nuts on.

How to Install ARP Main Cap Studs - Hot Rod Engine Tech

Serious race engine builders mostly use high strength ARP studs to anchor the main caps. Studs provide a more even clamping force with higher tensile strength than most bolts and they are less highly stressed in the block ...

hotrodenginetech.com

How to Install ARP Main Cap Studs​

Serious race engine builders mostly use high strength ARP studs to anchor the main caps.
Studs provide a more even clamping force with higher tensile strength than most bolts and they are less highly stressed in the block .


1. Clean and inspect ALL threads in the cylinder block thoroughly. After initial tank cleaning, dry the block and inspect threads closely. Chase the threads with the appropriate size ARP thread chaser if necessary.
2. To prepare the threaded holes select a small stiff bristle nylon cleaning brush as found in engine brush kits available from online retailers.
We prefer to scrub the main cap bolt threads with a brush and brake cleaner and then blow them out with air to get them spotlessly clean prior to assembly. At this point you should also ensure that the main cap mounting surfaces are spotlessly clean and free of any nicks, burrs or other contamination. This step is important to ensure perfect seating of the main caps.
3. Clean and inspect ALL studs and verify all dimensions. Remove all shipping lubrication from the studs until they are squeaky clean.
4. Screw the studs into the appropriate holes HAND TIGHT ONLY! While not specified by the manufacturer, we prefer to brush a very thin coating of ARP Ultra-Torque fastener assembly lube on the threads. Do not over-tighten the studs in the block.
Note: If permanent mounting of the studs is desired, Loctite may be applied to the threads.
If you do this the fasteners must be final torqued before the Loctite sets up.


5. Install the main caps and check for proper fit and alignment.
Splayed bolt main caps require outer stud installation after each main cap is installed.
Install the inner studs and use them as a guide for the main cap.
Tap the cap into place and then install the outer studs. (USE A DEAD BLOW MALLET)
6. Use a small application brush to coat the stud threads and washers with assembly lube and install the nuts finger tight.
Whether using ARP fasteners or others,
we recommend ARP Ultra-Torque fastener assembly lubricant to ensure consistent torque readings.
Lubing with regular motor oil is discouraged due to inconsistent clamping forces. (THIS IS REFERING TO THE UPPER FINER THREADS< NOT THE
CORSER STUD THREADS IN THE BLOCK
7. To apply the proper preload to the studs follow the manufacturer’s recommendations.
Torque the nuts in three even steps until you reach the recommended torque spec.
Note: clamping forces will change when installing new studs. Check the main bearing housing bores for proper size and out of round condition. In most cases align honing the mains with the new studs properly torqued will be necessary to ensure proper fit and clamping forces.
Editors note: If you found this article helpful, please click HERE to let them know and to order you copy of their 2013 catalog.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/torque-specs-calculator-links-etc.1222/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/splayed-main-caps.1014/

O.E.M. factory bolts use the 110 lb torque
ARP main cap bolts and STUDS CAN and frequently DO require a different torque
splayed aftermarket main caps generally use smaller diameter outer bolts that require less torque

 

[TXChevy]

Grumpy, I didn't describe it clearly. Yes the studs are installed dry, finger tight. They also have a ball type end so the stud threads don't bottom out in the hole.
That's all good, no issue.

What I was describing were the threads and nuts at the caps. Instructions read that arp lube is to be used, and their supplied washers are also to be used. But there was no lube on either the cap end threads or nuts and the washers were still packaged.

I can see where the caps were align bored but it seems that the shop would know about using the lube to reach correct torque prior to the boring. I need to talk with them because I don't know what exactly was done.

When I check the mains I'll use the lube and washers and torque to spec, then see what the readings are.

 

[Indycars]

Since you have studs, can you measure the stretch instead of measuring the torque ?
.

 

[Grumpy]

Since you have studs, can you measure the stretch instead of measuring the torque

since you can't get access to the other end of the stud ,
(unlike rod bolts)
as its threaded into the block web,
even if you placed a dial indicator stand

Amazon.com

on the block and use the dial indicator on the stud, you don't know how much movement is related to stud stretch or block web deformation as the load is increased. on the block web and main cap being squashed

.https://www.cpgnation.com/how-to-measure-bolt-stretch-for-proper-torque/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/rod-bolts-rpm-vs-stress.341/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...onnecting-rod-rod-length-too-stroke-info.510/


https://www.hotrod.com/articles/using-rod-bolt-stretch-tool/

.https://www.cpgnation.com/how-to-measure-bolt-stretch-for-proper-torque/

Video How To: Measuring Rod Bolt Torque And Stretch - EngineLabs

In this quick-hit video how-to, Real Street Performance's Jay Meagher shows how to measure rod bolt stretch, and provides a number of tech tips in the process.

www.enginelabs.com

How to Use Rod Bolt Stretch Tool Stretching Exercise - Car Craft Magazine

Car Craft magazine takes a closer look on why to use a a rod bolt stretch tool

www.motortrend.com

ARP Rod Bolt Stretch Gauge How-to - Hot Rod Engine Tech

Most engine builders concede that torquing rod bolts during final assembly is no longer an accepted practice. While no doubt adequate for general engine rebuilding where loading rarely approaches that of competition levels, basic rod bolt torquing simply cannot account for...

hotrodenginetech.com

Stretching Exercise

 

[TXChevy]

Rick, I don't have a stretch gauge but I do have a dial indicator.

I'm in process of torquing the main caps and measuring the bores, getting mixed up on my numbers though

Crank mains/rods had been cut .010 and I plan to replace with same size bearings unless there's a discrepancy.

So my understanding for the following example main cap #3:

1 - vertically measure the main cap bore (no bearing installed) with main cap torqued = Value A
2 - subtract bearing shell thickess (upper + lower half) - this value is .1868 for the clevite 77 2403
3 - subtract bearing oversize thickness of .010
4 - Value A subtract (.1868 + .010) = Value B which is the inside diameter of the installed bearing
5 - Value B subtract crank journal measurement = bearing clearance

 

[Indycars]

Don't forget to run the fasteners thru 5-7 torque cycles, this will provide a more consistent fastener preload. To me this tends to polish the thread mating surfaces allowing them to slide across each other with a higher degree of consistency.

The Official ARP Web Site | Technical Information

arp-bolts.com

Installation Tab


The main factor in determining friction in a threaded fastener is the lubricant used, and therefore influences the torque required for a particular installation. One of the most overlooked aspects of choosing a fastener assembly lubricant is…the lubricant's ability to "control" the normal function of friction inherent in all high performance engine fasteners. As discussed earlier in this section, friction is at its highest point when a new fastener is first tightened. This "friction" inhibits the fasteners ability to achieve the required preload on the first several cycles. In fact, ARP's in-house Research and Development department has proven that new fasteners using motor oil and other commonly used lubricants such as Moly and EPL typically require 5-7 cycles before final torquing to level out the initial friction and achieve the required preload. Slicker lubricants may reduce the required torque by as much as 20-30% to achieve the desired preload, but compromise in areas of major importance such as preload repeatability, and may yield the fastener prematurely. Typically, the slicker the lubricant, the greater the "preload scatter" or preload error there will be during installation.

The bottom line: Preload repeatability and preload consistency from a fastener to fastener perspective, should be the number one consideration when choosing a fastener assembly lubricant. Remember even the best fastener is only as good as its installation. Preload repeatability is the foundation for maintaining round housing bores, and preload consistency ensures the same preload from one fastener to another across a large area, such as the deck surface of a cylinder block

 

[Indycars]

since you can't get access to the other end of the stud , on the block and use the dial indicator on the stud, you don't know how much movement is related to stud stretch or block web deformation as the load is increased. on the block web and main cap being squashed.

I pictured the block end of the stud as stationary. But obviously it's not, but would it not be very similar from one stud to the next and therefore can be disregarded. Now you don't know the absolute stretch, just the relative stretch. So some testing would be required by someone to determine the correct relative stretch numbers, but once you know the correct numbers, then that would apply to everyone using that same block and same studs ???

I'm just theorizing and would like to see what someone gets by taking some stretch measurements and comparing that to the required torque for the studs. But if I was right someone would have already done this.

 

[TXChevy]

Don't forget to run the fasteners thru 5-7 torque cycles, this will provide a more consistent fastener preload. To me this tends to polish the thread mating surfaces allowing them to slide across each other with a higher degree of consistency.

Thanks I'll be sure to do that.

 

[TXChevy]

I think I may need to get the crank turned to .020 from it's current .010 (rods/mains) as I'm about to rip my hair out.

Catalog info on P bearings:



Rods:
- all rod end bores now sized to 2.325, within spec per catalog
- crank was originally turned .010, rod journals measure out from 2.1886-2.1888. This would transpose to 2.1986-2.1988 catalog shaft spec, which looks like too much wear? I also found another shaft spec of 2.1885-2.200 in How to Rebuild Your Big Block Chevy (Tom Wilson)
- If I did the math right, bearing clearance with another .010 bearing set gives me a clearance range of .0022-.0024 (using .0620 wall thickness x 2 and adding .010). Example is 2.325 rod bore subtract (2.1886 journal + .1340 bearings) = .0024.
- If I use the rule of thumb .0007-.001 clearance for every journal inch, clearance for the 2.1886 journal should be .0015-.0021, so I think that the rod journals need to be resized?

Mains:
- all main cap bores now sized to 2.937, within spec per catalog
- crank was originally turned .010, main journals measure out from 2.7386-2.7391. This would transpose to 2.7486-2.7491 catalog shaft spec, which appears to be within spec?
- Here's where it goes south for me - If I use another .010 bearing set on #1-4, that gives me a clearance range of 0011-.0016 (using .0934 wall thickness x 2 and adding .010).
- If I do the same math with #5, that gives me a clearance of .0009 (.0937 wall thickness x 2 and adding .010).
- I'm messing up somewhere, this engine ran for over 30 years with .010 cut crank with no copper showing on the bearings. Yet when I try to measure/calculate out the clearances, the results seem crazy. It would have long since spun bearings at the small clearances I came up with.
- If I use the rule of thumb .0007-.001 clearance for every journal inch, clearance range for the main journals would be .0021-.0027, so I think that the main journals also need to be resized?

...... maybe I just need to start fresh on this another day

 

[TXChevy]

New day - I'm going to take the crank in to the shop and let them look at it and grind if needed. I'll also ask them to swap out the Gen IV timing gear and replace with Gen VI gear. I don't want to buy a bearing set only to find that it's not right and I really don't want to mix and match bearing shells.

Which now brings me to ensuring that the timing setup will be correct. I'll need to measure crank to cam centerline to verify if the 5.150" is still good or has changed from the block being align honed. I've not yet bought a timing set yet, but leaning towards Cloyes 9-3649X3 set.

EDIT - I made a setup to measure crank to cam distance and there was only .001-.002 change from 5.150. I also went to the trouble of installing the old cam and crankshaft and installing the Cloyes double roller chain that was in the engine. Fit was snug, if I was using a Mk IV flat tappet cam I could have easily re-used the timing setup. Cloyes spec is .125 in max deflection and the chain still had less than that. So, in thinking about the measurement and also that the crankshaft is sitting on used bearings I believe that I don't need to get a shorter timing chain setup.

I'm going to get a new Cloyes timing set as I need the crank gear before I take the crankshaft in to the shop. I also don't think I need to have a double roller if a quality single roller will do, plus less issues with fitting under stock size cover (I have to use a short water pump in the car). There's several that include a thrust or torrington bearing, so a bit of research is needed.
Just curious - Straub Cams had included a Rollmaster CS2040 timing set in their estimate, but I didn't get that as I wasn't that familiar with them. Any experience with this brand?

 

[Indycars]

- all main cap bores now sized to 2.937, within spec per catalog

You measured the main bearing bored as 2.937" I assume, or are you going by the catalog ?

- If I do the same math with #5, that gives me a clearance of .0009 (.0937 wall thickness x 2 and adding .010).

I'm getting really close to the same, off by only .0001".

I made a setup to measure crank to cam distance and there was only .001-.002 change from 5.150

I have to laugh now when I think back to my suggestion to get some micrometers !

Why do you have so many measuring tools, are you a machinist ?

 

[TXChevy]

Yes I measured the main bearing bores with caps torqued, they were all consistent size.

Lol well I've collected tons of tools over the years and still find ways to get a few more

I took the crank in today, their machinist did a quick spot check and said unless he finds something, the crank is within spec and would just need polishing. Its at 10/10 so I'll get a new bearing set same as what was in there. I'll still check final clearance. I'll ask him what the final measurement is on the journals after it's polished. All in all I think good news. I think I just goofed up on the measurements somewhere - first thing I'll do is recheck my micrometer calibration. I do have mics, a dial bore gauge, calipers, dial caliper etc so there's no excuse not being able to properly measure.

I also did some checking and I can use a double roller timing set without issue, that gives me more selection at reasonable price. I realized that there's nothing magic about the Gen 6 timing chain - I was already using a MK IV double roller chain.

So progress continues. No info on cam and valvetrain stuff yet, so heads won't go to the shop until the springs are here. But in the meantime there's plenty to do!

 

[Grumpy]

you can use all the precision measuring tools you may have but the truth is always evident in cross checking with plasti-gauge

Clevite Engine Parts MPG-1 Clevite 77 Plastigage | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Clevite 77 Plastigage with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Plastigage at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

bearings and oil flow

Bearings and oil flow, some of the most important processes in engine assembly are related to getting the bearing clearances and oil flow and pressure rates set up to provide the correct oil flow rates and pressure for cooling and preventing direct surface to surface contact on the rotating...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

Precision measuring tools

I’m looking for the best quality precision tools on a limited budget (i.e. I don't want to pay $300 for one mic). I plan on building the occasional small- & big-block Chevy (more than one, less than 1000). Names that come up on the limited results I’ve found on the web include Starrett...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

lining up oil feed holes in bearings shells

I just got an e-mail asking what to do if you find that the blocks oil feed passage holes don,t line up exactly right with the holes in the oil feed holes in bearings shells? http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/viscosity-centistoke.15612/ paint, marker etc. tends to...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

assembling and installing connecting rods/pistons

look closely at the connecting rods one edge of the main bearing are is beveled noticeably more than the other that beveled side faces away from the rod its paired with because it matches the slight radiased bevel of the crank journal many builder class pistons are designed to go in, in either...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

assembling and installing connecting rods/pistons

He Measured .0004" - 4/10,000 th of an inch #5 MAIN CAP BORE DISTORTION TORQUED DOWN TO SPECS WITH THE OIL PUMP ON. I DON'T.LIKE IT. IT SHOULD BE +/- .0001" TOLERANCE. +/- .0002" INCH MAX.

garage.grumpysperformance.com

matching parts and a logical plan

I just had a rather long and detailed discussion with a guy who it was all too obvious ,was basically just, trying to get me to give him a detailed list of engine components to build his engine. one of the main secrets , too building a really effective combo is to match the engine and drive...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

I use both micrometers and snap gauges and cross check with plasti-gauge
and yes when you compare the crushed width of the plasti-gauge youll find it rarely falls as an exact match to the bar chart tape that is packaged with it so you can judge clearance based on crush width

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bearing-clearances.2726/

as a general rule you select .001 bearing clearance for every inch of bearing journal diameter,
Rod bearings 0.002 - 0.025" , side clearance 0.010 - 0.020"

Main bearings 0.002 - 0.003" for most engines ( 0.020-0.025 bearing clearance on small blocks, .025-.027 bearing clearance is about ideal, on big blocks ), 0.005 - 0.007 crankshaft end play

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-clearances-engine-builders-magazine.11965/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-mods-that-help.2187/

 

[TXChevy]

Great help thanks! Yes my last check is with plastigage, I call it my reality check.
I'll go through all of the info.

 

[TXChevy]

I've been looking at Gen VI timing sets and have 3 that are of interest:

- Summit G6617R-B Billet Steel Double Roller, 9 keyways, thrust bearing, about $80.
- Cloyes 9-3649X3 Single Roller, 3 keyways, iron/steel gears, no thrust bearing, about $155.
- Rollmaster CS2095 Double Roller Billet, 9 keyways, Torrington bearing, nitrided gears, IWIS chain about $174.

I read generally good info about the Rollmaster/IWIS chain combo vs the same brand with chain made in India.
Cloyes is good quality, nothing too fancy, fair price?
Not sure who's making the Summit brand, as it varies, but I see more good than bad comments about it.

Any advice/experience?

Adding... I picked up my crankshaft and all it needed was polishing so I ordered new clevite .010 P main/rod bearings. I also went back and rechecked the calibration of my 2-3in and 4-5in mics, and they were off . Great. They are mid-priced tools and I think I need to get something better. Anyway I did several checks including re-check of calibration and crank clearances are within the spec range given above, also piston to bore clearances are also within range. I looked back on any notes from the first build and the initial clearances were on the tight side, so the recent block hone and crank polishing didn't hurt anything.

 

[TXChevy]

The new bearings were delivered, so I'll make a check of bearing clearances on rods/mains before any further assembly in case the block, crank and/or rods needs rework.
I may get the Cloyes timing chain (3 keyway) setup. I'm not that sure I'll need a timing set with 9 keyways and I feel that any slots cut into that lower gearset are possible failure/crack points.
I also ordered a set of Perfect Circle/Mahle plasma moly rings for a .030 bore. I saw Rick's comments on the manual ring grinder he used, trying to decide which one to buy. I know there's electric ones as well but I just want a manual type as I don't plan to build enough engines to warrant that purchase.

 

[Indycars]

I know there's electric ones as well but I just want a manual type as I don't plan to build enough engines to warrant that purchase.

It's just too easy to grind them, if anything it maybe too easy so manual is all you will need. If you want to upgrade the ring grinder, maybe a stop you can set would be very nice. I would have preferred a smoother stone so I could sneak up on the correct gap, I did get one too big. If you have something with 6-10 power magnification it will be useful when it come to inspecting the filed ends and how well you knocked the burrs off.

Amazon.com : eye loupe

.