Building Up A Blown Olds Motor for an "A/GS Gasser"

2Loose said:
And it's a four door, just think about all the extra metal going into adding two more fully functional doors? Plus I have beefed it up here and there to make the frame and cage solid! All steel, no plastic or fiberglas anywhere. And full seats front and rear, full upholstery, it's got that weight, that's for sure. 20 gal fuel cell was pretty full when we weighed it. And that Olds with the 6/71, plus the Nash 5 speed, some weight there too, I've pulled them in and out enough times to know how heavy they are....

Am concerned that the Nash trans is not gong to hold up. Getting a little noise I think in the input shaft, you can hear it, maybe, when letting the clutch out in neutral, sounds noisier than I like, maybe.....
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If you don't have a magnetic fill & drain plug in the Doug Nash 5- speed, add them.
Easy to keep track of potential problems.
Remove a plug & check for metal chips.
Brass synchronizer ring(s) wear requires a small oil sample & check in bright sunlight for fine yellow metallic chips.

Original Doug Nash 5- speeds were pretty tough.
 
2Loose said:
And it's a four door, just think about all the extra metal going into adding two more fully functional doors? Plus I have beefed it up here and there to make the frame and cage solid! All steel, no plastic or fiberglas anywhere. And full seats front and rear, full upholstery, it's got that weight, that's for sure. 20 gal fuel cell was pretty full when we weighed it. And that Olds with the 6/71, plus the Nash 5 speed, some weight there too, I've pulled them in and out enough times to know how heavy they are....

Am concerned that the Nash trans is not gong to hold up. Getting a little noise I think in the input shaft, you can hear it, maybe, when letting the clutch out in neutral, sounds noisier than I like, maybe.....
Click to expand...

Gave it another thought in my head.
Possible bad defective clutch bearing- input shaft large ball bearing.
OR the front mainshaft roller bearing. Could be a caged roller bearing. Or a loose roller bearing setup like used in Muncie 4- speeds.
Input shaft or Clutch gear rides on the roller bearing & front of transmission mainshaft assembly.

Oil sample & good pickup magnet would tell more whats up or not.
 
Yeah, starting to hear a louder vibration on the road above 50 mph, very obvious at 60! In neutral with motor off still there, so most likely in the rear portion of the tranny (DN 4+1), u-joints (most likely), or the rear end. Still checking.
Willy
 
2Loose said:
Yeah, starting to hear a louder vibration on the road above 50 mph, very obvious at 60! In neutral with motor off still there, so most likely in the rear portion of the tranny (DN 4+1), u-joints (most likely), or the rear end. Still checking.
Willy
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Willy, by chance did you raise the rear of your car to fit the huge & tall rear tires?
That would throw U-Joints angles off far from ideal.
Setup a constant driveline vibration unless you corrected before hand.
Check with a magnetic base protractor or electronic angle finder..
 
Nope, same suspension setup as last year, but one of the 9" third members, (both have the 1350 heavy duty pinion yokes), is a tight fit on the u-joint cross member. When I was rebuilding the 4.11 gear set in the Currie 9+ with a new Detroit Locker, I had the Strange Alum. setup in with the 3.50 gear set. When I connected the rear u-joint to the pinion yoke on the Strange it was a tight fit, did not want to go into the saddles easily, so I put the u-bolts on and tightened all four nuts slowly a little at a time and pulled the bearing caps into the saddles. It was tight, maybe too tight? Maybe I forced those in too hard and now they are making noise? I bought a new u-joint 1350 cross piece and need to change that out and see if that stops the noise. If not, then it is elsewhere.

I knew when I was seating that tight u-joint into the pinion yoke that I should not be doing it, it was too tight, but at the moment I needed the car and needed to put it back on the road, so went ahead and did it, thinking, "I'll find out"....
Still, it might not be that either....

A couple of months ago I rechecked my diff angularity and found it was off slightly, by adjusting the heim joints at the rear of the ladder bars I was able to bring the diff up to the same angle the front u-joint is at. It was quiet after that, until now. But there has always been some noise in the front of the tranny, in neutral with the clutch engaged and the motor running you can hear it, it stops when I step on the clutch.

Always something.
Willy
 
Well, I didn't get the u-joint changed, and went down to the track for some test and tune runs anyway, and the u-joint held up, or what ever it was. The vibration I was hearing actually seems less now than it was....

I got 5 runs in, and only two were any good, the 2nd and 4th, my launching and stick shifting expertise under race conditions is very "iffy"......
And that rear end feels somewhat loose, sort of 'wallows' all the way down the track, but not on every run, have not figured that out yet. It scared me on the last run, it seemed like it was getting out of control, so I backed off....
Am guessing that it is the quite tall sidewalls on the race tires, swaying from side to side, with that 4,000 lb car resisting the acceleration!
Started at 17 lbs in the Mickey's, and upped it to 20, that seemed to help slightly, and it seemed to hook up good on every run....
As we had a lot of off island competition here, came over from Kauai, Oahu and Hawaii for our annual 4 day Memorial weekend event, and watching the runs during T&T, saw a lot of very consistent cars running very tight times!!! So decided to take my very inconsistent launch and shifting capabilities over to the spectator's side with a couple of cold beers and watch the action for the weekend! It was a lot of fun with some very tight racing, these guys run the numbers, wins being decided by the merest fractions of seconds! Way out of my league with my 48 year old motor and 71 year old driver on a stick shift and no electronics !!!
Aloha,
Willy

Times: 0.500 sportsman light:
Best T&T time slip is the #4 run:
0.637 reaction
1.77 60'
4.95 330'
7.57 1/8
93.50 1/8 speed
9.82 1000'
109.07 1000' speed
11.744 1/4
117.28 1/4 speed

2nd best (#2) was very similar with
0.720 reaction
1.73 60'
4.94 330'
7.57 1/8
93.07 1/8 speed
9.83 1000'
108.69 1000' speed
11.750 1/4
116.02 1/4 speed
 
And that rear end feels somewhat loose, sort of 'wallows' all the way down the track, but not on every run, have not figured that out yet. It scared me on the last run, it seemed like it was getting out of control, so I backed off.
...
Click to expand...

Get someone to watch from directly behind you and watch your pass.
Can they confirm the same problems you are feeling???
Did you have much of a cross wind?

 
It was very windy at the track, probably 30 knots, mostly down the track, but yes, there was some cross-wind component to it that day. I'll do that, get someone to watch. Track is now closed until July, we take June off after that 4 day event! It was a fun event though. Watching the Bracket 2 races on Sunday (10.00 to 12.99) I was wishing I was out there, I could have won some races with a 11.70 dial in and the times I showed above....
If I could have repeated them consistently....
I just got pretty down on myself on Thursday because of my only two out of five runs being any good!
 
I just got pretty down on myself on Thursday because of my only two out of five runs being any good!
Click to expand...
Yep....been there, done that myself, you are not alone on this one my friend! ;)
 
Yesterday I pulled the slicks off and put the Hoosiers back on for the street. Found that the 1/2" rear wheel studs were all slightly bent! Clockwise direction on the driver's side and counter-clockwise on the passenger's side! Slicks were on steel wheels with acorn nuts, all properly tightened! Go figure! The last run it just did not feel right so I shut 'er down 2/3 down the track!

The axles are 35 spline Moser Engineering, with the 1/2" studs red "lock-tightened" in place! The Hoosiers are mounted on a pair of alloy rims using shank style lug nuts, they tightened up ok and the studs seemed to straighten out as I carefully tightened them up. But I don't like the fact that they bent at all, something not right about that! I probably should pull the axles and check it out, and replace those studs with new ones instead of leaving the "bent" ones in there!

Damm, bent wheel studs! Scary!
Willy
 
Am thinking the acorn nuts bottomed out before the rims got really tight! Then there was some movement on the wheels at high speed. Also the launch in low was hard, with loose nuts the studs bent!
New studs, and grind the nose off the acorns to make sure they seat tight on the steel rims....
Willy
 
You are putting down way too much torque for Acorn style 45degree taper face lugnuts Willy.
Actually against long standing NHRA RULES.
SHOULD BE USING ONLY STRAIGHT SHANK LUG NUTS DESIGNED FOR SEVERE DRAG RACE USE.
New rear wheel studs are highly recomended.
Can not trust no more. Bent & twisted up prior.
They fail, loose contol and hit a wall or worse.

You made it to 71, do it right so you race again And keep doing it till your 99.

Will have to drill out the lugnut holes in your steel rims to accept straight shank lugnuts.
Can be done by hand with a 1/2 inch 120 Vac drill.
Drill press used best.

ARP WHEEL STUDS BEST.
MOROSO EXCELLENT TOO.
GOOD FOR OVER 1000 HP.

Pretty good runs.
Need more driving race time practice.
Get reaction times down closer to 0.
 
2Loose said:
Am thinking the acorn nuts bottomed out before the rims got really tight! Then there was some movement on the wheels at high speed. Also the launch in low was hard, with loose nuts the studs bent!
New studs, and grind the nose off the acorns to make sure they seat tight on the steel rims....
Willy
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thats the main reason why all racing associations that IM familiar with MANDATE lug nuts that can allow the end of the wheel studs to protrude out thru the top,or at least be easily visible, is because this or any inspector visually checking can insure full thread engagement and no chance of that particular issue , of the wheel stud bottoming out inside the lug nut before maximum clamp loads on the wheel to axle flange,is reached from happening.
conical lug nuts ?
Its generally a good idea use 5/8" wheel studs,on a serious race car axle application rather than 1/2", as the 5/8" is significantly stronger in tension and sheer stress resistance and upgrading to the larger and stronger wheel studs is not all that difficult or expensive, and they are better designed for racing stress levels
if running steel wheels, get Marsh Racing or equivalent with 45 degree chamfers for the nuts
Moroso or circle track lugs with 1" hex, 45 degree
http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/46240/ ... tId=748727
Moroso 46240 - Moroso Wheel Studs

1/2" studs are too weak. stock chamfer is 60 degree and the wheel tends to get sucked through the nuts, as circle track guys found out.

btw from an engineering perspective internal threads in the lug nut that cover a length of thread, at least 2.5 times the diameter of the studs outer thread surface length, will at least in theory maximize the clamp load the lug nut can apply to the stud, or put a different way, having a thread engaugement area of 2.5 times the bolt/stud diam. insures the stud will snap off under load long before the threads strip, under load.


LEGAL FOR RACING
lug1.jpg

lug3.jpg


lug5.jpg


NOT LEGAL ON MANY TRACKS
lug2.jpg

lug4.jpg

lug6.jpg
 
Mine are open ended acorn style lug nuts, on 3" long studs, with about 2" protruding through the lug nuts. What I think happened is that the taper on the face of the acorn nuts was bottoming out against the axle flange before the wheel came fully tight. Felt tight to the spanner, torqued up nicely, but was torquing against the axle flange, not against the rim. Am investigating how I can do better, with those steel wheels I don't see how a shank style nut can be used and still get a good, tight fit of the nut against the steel rim and the rim against the axle flange. Am checking that out.

The reaction times our track shows on the timing slips is based on a perfect zero light shown as 0.500. A 0.499 reaction time is a red light! It's based on the 0.500 time from the last yellow (sportsman tree), or the 0.500 time from all yellow (half second pro tree) to the green. So my reaction times were really 0.138 and 0.344, not too bad for my first time at the track with this setup. But yeah, definitely need more seat time at the track getting myself tuned in to the lites again, and this car with it's line lock and clutch setup.

When I was racing my 12 second 58 truck (502 and th400), I could often cut a 0.550 or better lite, I figure a 0.050 reaction time is pretty damn good! But getting that close I start seeing more red lites!!! Not good!
Willy
 
How about locating another set of wheels Willy ???
A set of Vintage Hailbrand Magnesium Drag Wheels would look great on your blown Olds 425 Gasser.
No more lug nut issues.
Keep a photo collection of vintage Gassers. I love them.
Nearly all use Hailbrand Magnesium Mags. Or similar.
See them for sale on Ebay weekly.
Some day I will own a set of Magnesium Gasser Mag Wheels.

Brian
 
Looking at acorn lug nuts, I see both 45 deg and 60 deg tapers! I wonder if I had a taper mismatch? I am assuming that my steel rims are 60 deg, and the acorn nuts are also, but I need to check that out! But I need to know what that refers to, where do they measure that and how is it measured??
 
Grumpy can better research and answer Willy.
A good tire shop should answer and solve problem with acorn lugnuts.

I really don't like the acorn taper design .
Prefer straight shank with heat treated hardened washer.

My own preference.

Definate important to solve current wheel to lugnut issue.
 
The only taper lug nuts & wheels I seen hold upma long term performance is the Corvette.

Seen lots of accidents with individuals using taper acorn lugnuts.
Drag race & dirt track.
Seen zero people loose wheels racing with straight shank lugnuts.
Just my observations shared since 1983.
 
I found this website for a collection of photos of tri five Chevy gassers:
http://public.fotki.com/redlinetoys/gassers/

And an interesting discussion on conical lug nuts at Yellow Bullet:
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showt ... p?t=290938

The steel rims are 16" by 10" wide, and the MT's are 16" by 12" wide, if I can solve the lug nut problem I would rather stick with them, but am looking at wheel alternatives. My street tires are 12" wide Hoosiers mounted on 12" wide alloy 15" rims using shank lug nuts.

I am now suspecting that the conical taper on the steel wheels is not properly matched to the lug nuts, and along with the new lug bolts, I need to make sure I get a good match of the nuts to the rims at the tapered surface.

Looking at the shanked/tapered style lug nuts, but my wheels are not really setup for that kind of application. I would have to machine some collars to take the taper and the shanks, and precision weld them to the nut side of the wheels to adapt them to that style of nut. Not impossible, and it would probably greatly improve the strength and safety of those wheels.

Buying new wheels and slicks to fit them is out of my budget, probably for quite awhile, so am looking at other, safe alternatives that will do the job but keep the cost down.

I have a set of fairly new 15" MT slicks that I ran on my 58 pro street truck a couple of times, but they are too wide for the '55, unfortunately!
 
Your one of my favorite old time racers Willy....
Want to see you post 20 years from today. Racing the Gasser & kicking Azz doing so.
Real crszy people on Yellow bullet.
Let them die 1st . OK ???
!!

BRIAN
 
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