Let's start over

if its crud on the oil pump pick-up screen restricting oil flow into the pump a simple dis-assembly and cleaning of the oil pump and pick-up with carburetor cleaner, a careful re-lube and reassembly should take care of the problem as long as the oil pump pick- ups brazed to the pump so it can,t rotate closer to the oil pan floor or fall off, and its mounted 3/8"-1/2" from the oil pan floor .
btw verify the driven gear shaft is solidly locked in the driven gear, and the coasting gear spins freely on its shaft, Ive only seen it once but I have seen a gear locked when it sucked up a valve keeper that allowed the oil pump drive shaft to spin but the gears remained locked and stationary

bbcoilpumpcover.jpg

pump23.jpg

this style oil pump pick-up is fairly easy to clog and restrict



this style below seems to be more resistant to clogging
M99HVS.jpg

pumpweld1.jpg
 
Oil looks fine. NOTHING in it. However, that doesn't look like 4-5 quarts in the bucket.
 
Ummm. I drained 3 quarts on the dot.

And yes, the mark was on full on the disptick.
 
I think I'm going to go through the pump. Pull the cap and inspect. And possibly put on a deep pan - doing that requires pulling the engine. No way to install the pan from under the vehicle. I damaged the old large pan prying it out.

Is three quarts drained short?
 
DorianL said:
I think I'm going to go through the pump. Pull the cap and inspect. And possibly put on a deep pan - doing that requires pulling the engine. No way to install the pan from under the vehicle. I damaged the old large pan prying it out.

Is three quarts drained short?
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in my opinion, any performance engine should run a baffled 7-8 quart oil pan or at least a 5 -6 quart and an oil accumulator to insure constant oil pressure

what year and model is your cars again? Ill see what I can locate that fits, but if I remember correctly you already purchased a replacement oil pan????


831f9b98.jpg


11.jpg
 
DorianL said:
Thanks chief!!! It's a 1973 Malibu

5a1e29c3.jpg


6a7c2ee8.jpg
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that low oil level could have easily been a major factor in your problems as at 4000pls rpms and above theres usually 2 quarts in the upper engine, the picture suggests your still using the stock oil pan??
831f9b98.jpg

what was this oil pan used for?
 
I was, but it was damaged when I pulled it our from under the car.

I think we found our culprit... and it was a STUPID XXX mistake of mine. The rubber gasket... I checked the pickup WITHOUT it!

I am assuming I should have had 4 quarts in the pan.

I haven't puled a cap yet (and am a bit reluctant to) but the cylinder bores are still beautiful!!!!
 
Right. 21:42 here. Enough for the day. Good progress. Gotta think about next steps. Might pull engine again to put on a good pan and pump. Sleep on it.

Thanks folks.
 
please post info and pictures if you can because everything youve posted helps many other people, both better understand problems and their solutions
 
Will do. That rubber gasket is thick!!! Was a dumbass mistake. I am not quite sure what I will do from here. Need to sleep on it.
 
your certainly not the first guy to forget the oil pan gasket thickness in calculating or measuring the oil pump too oil pan clearance on the oil pump pick-up or in having lower oil levels than ideal.
TW-383-oil-pump-5.jpg


MIL-31505.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MIL-31505/?rtype=10

http://www.livermoreperformance.com/cam ... l#corvette

obviously you'll need to verify this carefully that this oil pan fits your cars frame and the correct matched oil pump pick-ups used, but it looks like summit says this fits your application and verify the dip stick is on the correct side

obviously buying an oil pans expensive but fairly fast and easy if you have the spare cash, I usually don,t! so I generally spend a day or so fabricating a custom baffled sump on an old stock oil pan, with a tig welder, btw always keep any oil pan you weld on bolted with all the bolts, to a spare bare block during welding, and never weld more than a small area before moving and letting that area cool, as it tends to reduce the tendency to warp from heat, this link below should help


viewtopic.php?f=54&t=65
 
DorianL said:
I am assuming I should have had 4 quarts in the pan.

I haven't puled a cap yet (and am a bit reluctant to) but the cylinder bores are still beautiful!!!!
Click to expand...

I have a 7 quart oil pan and on oil change i usually get 6 Qt out of it(the rest probably stay in the oil filter).
Hopefully the bearings are not damaged because of lack of lubrication :/
 
I doubt it. I never ran high rpm for any period of time. Rarely 4000. And NEVER went under 1psi/1000rpm.
 
DorianL said:
Will do. That rubber gasket is thick!!! Was a dumbass mistake. I am not quite sure what I will do from here. Need to sleep on it.
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Hey..... we wouldn't let you call someone else names, so your NOT allowed to beat up on yourself either. Everyone makes mistakes, so easy on yourself, please ! :)
 
Thanks Gentlemen!

The pan I had fit - however it cannot be slid in and out from underneath. For the moment I can get the stock pan in an out fairly easily by freeing the block from its mounts and lifting the engine as high as possible.

Having slept on it, here's is what I think.

I think it was a confluence of problems: low oil (Crummy Lokar dipstick? I checked the oil level regularly.) and too much pan-to-pickup clearance. Clearance was over a 16th or two over 1/2 an inch.

This would explain why the oil pressure would climb fast from idle pressure to 35-40 PSI. At 40-PSI 2000 rpm highway cruise it was probably already cavitating, more so at higher RPM. This in turn would heat up the oil, aerate it and increase bearing clearances. During a short, harder 4000 RPM run the needle would dip eratically - heating things up even more, cavitating and aerating the oil. Therefore and thereafter returning to idle and cruise, I'd lose another 5-8 PSI.

Is this diagnosis sound?

So far here is my plan: Until I am sure this was indeed what happened, I do not want to purchase a deep pan. I might need the $$$ to yet fix a problem that lies elsewhere -the deep/baffled pan will come after that. I think it makes sense to be sure that proper oil level + pan-to-pickup clearance will solve the problem.

This weekend, I will pull the first and last cap off, as per Grumpyvette's suggestion, and check for damage. If the bearings look ok (and I am expecting them to be) I will not pull the others. (If there is excessive damage I have no clue what to do other than yank the engine and start over.)

From there I will go through the pump; put back on the stock oil pan (with a standard oil pan gasket and my old high volume pump); and ensure that the clearance is spot on WITH the gasket.

If this solves the problem, I will order a deep/baffled pan for the September race. I might have to pull the engine to install it.

Also - put in another dipstick + 20w50

Makes sense?

Questions:
- Is there anything else I should look at as a potential source of issue while I am down there?
- Should I RTV the gasket to the pan? Or use grease to hold gasket to the block? (Since I am working on my back.)
- Locktight on oil pump case bolts?
 
DorianL said:
Thanks Gentlemen!

The pan I had fit - however it cannot be slid in and out from underneath. For the moment I can get the stock pan in an out fairly easily by freeing the block from its mounts and lifting the engine as high as possible.

Having slept on it, here's is what I think.

I think it was a confluence of problems: low oil (Crummy Lokar dipstick? I checked the oil level regularly.) and too much pan-to-pickup clearance. Clearance was over a 16th or two over 1/2 an inch.
Measure and place your own mark on the dip stick for full.

This would explain why the oil pressure would climb fast from idle pressure to 35-40 PSI. At 40-PSI 2000 rpm highway cruise it was probably already cavitating, more so at higher RPM. This in turn would heat up the oil, aerate it and increase bearing clearances.
I don't see how this would make the bearing clearances larger. If it did, then you have hurt the bearings and will need replacement.

During a short, harder 4000 RPM run the needle would dip eratically - heating things up even more, cavitating and aerating the oil. Therefore and thereafter returning to idle and cruise, I'd lose another 5-8 PSI.

Is this diagnosis sound?

So far here is my plan: Until I am sure this was indeed what happened, I do not want to purchase a deep pan. I might need the $$$ to yet fix a problem that lies elsewhere -the deep/baffled pan will come after that. I think it makes sense to be sure that proper oil level + pan-to-pickup clearance will solve the problem.
Unless you don't have the time and need the car, I would wait for the better pan. In my opinion, a bigger oil pan is REQUIRED.

This weekend, I will pull the first and last cap off, as per Grumpyvette's suggestion, and check for damage. If the bearings look ok (and I am expecting them to be) I will not pull the others. (If there is excessive damage I have no clue what to do other than yank the engine and start over.)

From there I will go through the pump; put back on the stock oil pan (with a standard oil pan gasket and my old high volume pump); and ensure that the clearance is spot on WITH the gasket.

If this solves the problem, I will order a deep/baffled pan for the September race. I might have to pull the engine to install it.

Also - put in another dipstick + 20w50
Again, make your own measurements and confirm or remark the dip stick.

Makes sense?

Questions:
- Is there anything else I should look at as a potential source of issue while I am down there?
- Should I RTV the gasket to the pan? Or use grease to hold gasket to the block? (Since I am working on my back.)
- Locktight on oil pump case bolts?
I would suggest you use RED loctite. When I called Melling about their 10552 pump, they said torque the cover bolts to 80-106 in lbs. Maybe impossible to do in the car.
Click to expand...
 
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