I'm glad you are thinking late October, we know how these estimated times go.
The Inevitable Build Thread
- Thread starter arlowf
- Start date
Below are a few resources for building the engine and startup.
The attached PDF below is for engine startup preparations and begins the day before.
The attached PDF below is for engine startup preparations and begins the day before.
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Here is my email that I would like reviewed before sending to Northern Auto (online retailer):
Hello,
I spoke to a very helpful individual named "Regal" about two weeks ago about one of your Rotating Assembly kits.
I would like to order that kit, but I would like some part substitutions and upgrades done to it (which I realize will change the price). I am going with your company due to the support, willingness to customize, and because this kit not only has an internally balanced Scat crank but you also balance all the pieces in the kit before shipping. Let me know if I am mistaken about any of that.
This is the Rotating Assembly kit I amreferencing:
https://www.northernautoparts.com/part/ek-ek1803al#options
I would like this kit with the Dished .030 pistons, but instead of the 5.7 inch rods included with it (Scat Forged Rods w/ ARP Cap Screws) I would like to upgrade to these rods:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-26000716
Additionally, I would like these standard upgrade items added that you list as options:
C105 10 oz. Lubriplate Motor Assembly Grease
Hello,
I spoke to a very helpful individual named "Regal" about two weeks ago about one of your Rotating Assembly kits.
I would like to order that kit, but I would like some part substitutions and upgrades done to it (which I realize will change the price). I am going with your company due to the support, willingness to customize, and because this kit not only has an internally balanced Scat crank but you also balance all the pieces in the kit before shipping. Let me know if I am mistaken about any of that.
This is the Rotating Assembly kit I amreferencing:
https://www.northernautoparts.com/part/ek-ek1803al#options
I would like this kit with the Dished .030 pistons, but instead of the 5.7 inch rods included with it (Scat Forged Rods w/ ARP Cap Screws) I would like to upgrade to these rods:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-26000716
Additionally, I would like these standard upgrade items added that you list as options:
C105 10 oz. Lubriplate Motor Assembly Grease
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@Indycars you mentioned a few pages back that, for this stroker application, due to me using clearanced rods, that I should just go with a normal base/radius circle cam instead of a small circle cam. Howard offers my cam in both. My machinist is very much wanting me to purchase the reduced radius circle cam but I think he's just not used to the clearanced rods. Why do you think/want me to go with the normal cam size instead of the smaller diameter one?
if you select the reduced radias cam your fairly sure it will fit, without added clearance work,
if you buy the standard cam there's a slight chance the rods ,
designed to provide a bit more clearance, will require added clearance work,
I don't think either options a bad bet your call here!
if you buy the standard cam there's a slight chance the rods ,
designed to provide a bit more clearance, will require added clearance work,
I don't think either options a bad bet your call here!
I have the exact same rods with a cam that has .555/.560 lift and had .at lest 080" clearance for a standard base circle cam. I don't want to tell you what to do, I can only tell you based on my one experience. Different cams with different lobe configurations can change things some, so yours could be slightly different.
Below you can see where I went thru checking clearances on my engine.
TBucket Engine Project (Dart SHP)
I went back to check the Piston-To-Valve clearance again using the clay method. This time with the dial indicator on the spring retainer so I could see if the valve moved, I adjusted the poly lock until the lifter stopped compressing and the valve retainer started to move. Then I backed up until...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
The pistons in the rotating assembly you linked to will have to change also when you change the rod length. The pin height will move up in the piston by 0.3".
Have you bored the block yet, do you know that it will clean-up at .030" over?
They say "Internally Balanced", but I was curious why they were also selling a Balancer and Flex Plate with the kit. Both of which would be required for an "Externally Balanced" assembly. So I went to the Scat website to check out the 9000 cranks there. You will notice that it says "Internal Front, External Rear Balance". But one of the options for Balance you can pick is "Internal". So it's unclear to me if it's completely INTERNALLY BALANCED or not. Something to verify with Northern.
Chevy Small Block 350 Main 1-PC Rear Seal Series 9000 Cast Crankshaft
Chevy Small Block 350 Main 1-PC Rear Seal Series 9000 Cast Crankshaft sold by SCAT Crankshafts.
www.scatcrankshafts.com
To balance a crank internally they have to use a metal called "Mallory" because it's very heavy and it's expensive. Not something that a supplier is usually want to do when they are looking to make a profit.
Crankshaft Mallory Metal - Free Shipping on Orders Over $109 at Summit Racing
Find Crankshaft Mallory Metal and get Free Shipping on Orders Over $109 at Summit Racing!
I have the exact same rods with a cam that has .555/.560 lift and had .at lest 080" clearance for a standard base circle cam. I don't want to tell you what to do, I can only tell you based on my one experience. Different cams with different lobe configurations can change things some, so yours could be slightly different.
Below you can see where I went thru checking clearances on my engine.
TBucket Engine Project (Dart SHP)
I went back to check the Piston-To-Valve clearance again using the clay method. This time with the dial indicator on the spring retainer so I could see if the valve moved, I adjusted the poly lock until the lifter stopped compressing and the valve retainer started to move. Then I backed up until...garage.grumpysperformance.com
The pistons in the rotating assembly you linked to will have to change also when you change the rod length. The pin height will move up in the piston by 0.3".
Have you bored the block yet, do you know that it will clean-up at .030" over?
They say "Internally Balanced", but I was curious why they were also selling a Balancer and Flex Plate with the kit. Both of which would be required for an "Externally Balanced" assembly. So I went to the Scat website to check out the 9000 cranks there. You will notice that it says "Internal Front, External Rear Balance". But one of the options for Balance you can pick is "Internal". So it's unclear to me if it's completely INTERNALLY BALANCED or not. Something to verify with Northern.
Chevy Small Block 350 Main 1-PC Rear Seal Series 9000 Cast Crankshaft
Chevy Small Block 350 Main 1-PC Rear Seal Series 9000 Cast Crankshaft sold by SCAT Crankshafts.
To balance a crank internally they have to use a metal called "Mallory" because it's very heavy and it's expensive. Not something that a supplier is usually want to do when they are looking to make a profit.
.Crankshaft Mallory Metal - Free Shipping on Orders Over $109 at Summit Racing
Find Crankshaft Mallory Metal and get Free Shipping on Orders Over $109 at Summit Racing!www.summitracing.com
I totally forgot about the piston change. I knew that last week. Crap. So let me track down the ones I found on summit and tell them I want the pistons changed out too lol. Same 12cc, just different pin height.
I'll get the normal circle cam from summit at the very last minute then check it and if it doesn't work I'll send it back for exchange. I know the rules about installing but this more like "fit testing".
@Indycars so earlier when I looked for 6.0" "stroked" pistons, I was looking at flat tops mainly. But then we correctly decided to stick with Dish.
I'm not having much luck finding pistons that 6.0" stroke and within 2CC of the dish volume we had before. Before I run a bunch of different calculations, would a 5.75" stroke be that bad/effect my build that much? I'd lose some torque and HP going with a 5.7 inch piston rod instead of a 6.0 rod right? I know most of the change was about the angle, I just don't know how much I need to worry about that with this engine's HP/RPM range. I'd like to stick with 5.75" for simplicity if it's a decent option. If not, it's kind of back to the drawing board to find pistons that will work.
I'm not having much luck finding pistons that 6.0" stroke and within 2CC of the dish volume we had before. Before I run a bunch of different calculations, would a 5.75" stroke be that bad/effect my build that much? I'd lose some torque and HP going with a 5.7 inch piston rod instead of a 6.0 rod right? I know most of the change was about the angle, I just don't know how much I need to worry about that with this engine's HP/RPM range. I'd like to stick with 5.75" for simplicity if it's a decent option. If not, it's kind of back to the drawing board to find pistons that will work.
Oh man. That first sentence made my day. I'm soooo ready to stop changing everything.
It's at .030 now and yes, I'm sure. But, if it won't effect our numbers much or plan (as far as part selection) I can just as easily pick .040 to be safe and have them bore it over. I was just going to home hone it, just to feel good about it. I think boring it .010 over where it's at now should add too much to my machine shop bill.
Normally a block is bored to within a few thousand's of the required size and then the honing is done to set the precise clearance on the piston. If it's already been fitted to some pistons, then I'm not sure how this will work out. The pistons may or may not fit properly. At the very least the cylinder walls need to be honed enough to break the glaze and provide the right surface for the rings during break-in.
Is this an engine that is running and has a .030" over bore now???
How many miles on the engine???
.
No this is a block that went to the machine shop 10 years ago to have everything setup for a 383, and has been sitting (protected). There are very small minor surface rust spots in some of the cylinders, which is why I was going to hone it. I do know they are bored .030 over because I have the receipt from the machine shop and have measured.
No idea how many miles were on the block but it was checked and magnafluxed 10 years ago.
It's currently on a stand in my garage slathered in ATF and Motor Oil after I cleaned and painted it.
when you get the chance, put it on your engine stand and spray it on the machined surfaces with WD40 and cover it with a 40 gal plastic trash bag to protect it,
I wonder if it was fitted for pistons? If you didn't have pistons back then, it may still need to have the final honing done and fitted to the pistons when you get them. The clearance can be verified with some feeler gauges with reasonably good accuracy.
be sure you, measure EACH bore and EACH piston,
(CORRECTLY with the proper tools in the way the tool and piston manufacturers suggested)
and number them on an engine build sheet indicating the bore and piston diam.
from large to smallest on each and install them on each cylinder to get the most consistent piston to bore clearance's
yes the difference may only be a few ten thousands if the bores are machined correctly, but you'll get the best results , most consistent lubrication, best durability and less heat build up that might result in detonation issues that way. its the little things that add up to making a good durable engine assembly,
BTW check rod orientation, so the beveled sides don't fact the adjacent rods, and check the bearing clearances with plasti guage
(CORRECTLY with the proper tools in the way the tool and piston manufacturers suggested)
and number them on an engine build sheet indicating the bore and piston diam.
from large to smallest on each and install them on each cylinder to get the most consistent piston to bore clearance's
yes the difference may only be a few ten thousands if the bores are machined correctly, but you'll get the best results , most consistent lubrication, best durability and less heat build up that might result in detonation issues that way. its the little things that add up to making a good durable engine assembly,
BTW check rod orientation, so the beveled sides don't fact the adjacent rods, and check the bearing clearances with plasti guage
piston to bore clearance
ok first some facts (1)cylinders will not be honed to true round as they will be in use with out the use of a deck plate to simulate and duplicate the bolt clamp stress on the cylinder walls, bores in blocks without a head or deck plate with the bolts or studs torqued to spec are not nearly the...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
don,t guess on clearances and journal surface
So I decided to buy a couple of worthless old 283s to learn how to build engines. If I acquire the appropriate skills, I'm going to build a torquey 383 out of the anemic '77 350 in my C30. It tows cars, but it doesn't exactly set the road on fire, if you know what I mean. Anyway, I bought two...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
measuring piston dome volume
\" how do you measure piston dome volume" I just bought a 454 from a yard sale, the seller has no clue as to the pistons used" https://www.summitracing.com/newsandevents/calcsandtools/compression-calculator http://www.grumpysperformance.com/cop2.png...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
ring gapping and basic piston ring info YOULL NEED
YES YOU NEED TO READ THRU THE LINKS THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE THERE FOR...AND THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF USEFUL INFO IN THOSE LINKS, don,t get over whelmed, make a list and test adjust correct or replace each problem, and check it off the list then move to the next issue, its a finite list and theres...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
assembling and installing connecting rods/pistons
look closely at the connecting rods one edge of the main bearing are is beveled noticeably more than the other that beveled side faces away from the rod its paired with because it matches the slight radiased bevel of the crank journal many builder class pistons are designed to go in, in either...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
resistance to rotation, of crank durring short blk assembly
Ok youve just installed your crankshaft in the engine block, with new main bearings and everything's well coated with assembly lube,and oil, and youve torqued down the main caps to spec. in at least three stages, and then gone back and rechecked the studs or bolts per the manufacturers...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
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NewbVetteGuy
Well-Known Member
On header flanges: SPDexhaust.com sells custom CNC header flanges, too. They don't officially make one for the Profiler heads, but they have one that is SUPER CLOSE to being perfect.
I know an Australlian guy who built his own tri-y headers for his set of Profiler heads and used an SPDExhaust flange that he said was a near perfect fit.
Let me see if I can find the SPDExhaust part number from the Aussie guy. I think he used the ones made for GM Fastburn heads...
Adam
I know an Australlian guy who built his own tri-y headers for his set of Profiler heads and used an SPDExhaust flange that he said was a near perfect fit.
Let me see if I can find the SPDExhaust part number from the Aussie guy. I think he used the ones made for GM Fastburn heads...
Adam
NewbVetteGuy
Well-Known Member
Ok I found where the Aussie guy told me.
He DID use the SPD flanges for GM Fastburn heads. http://www.spdexhaust.com/pdfs/HeadFlanges/SBC_OEM.pdf
C83532
He said that he still had to slot the bolt holes (because Profiler was dumb and didn't center the bolt holes on the port.)
If you could figure out how much the port has been raised, you MIGHT be able to ask them to build that gasket with the hole move DOWN on the header the same amount to compensate. (Or possibly they'd let you take a rubbing of the heads and mail that to them and have them position the hole to match the heads.) ---That's assuming they'd be willing to adjust the CNC programming for the bolt holes just for you buying a single flange...
I know you're excited about the Profilers and I don't want you to spin on more things to think about, BUT... It was hard to get the intake pushrod off of the intake port wall with a "regular" one-piece guideplate and still have all the rockers pointed straight at the valve tips and that was with the 195cc profilers. If the increase in the 210cc profiler's intake ports come from additional width, that challenge might get bigger. Definitely check to make sure no pushrods are rubbing. I used a dremel and a dremel sandpaper flapper to add more clearance there but the walls can be thin.
The alternative becomes split guide plates or offset rockers, and then split guide plates officially require welding. (One company makes a weld-free split guideplate but $$$ from what I remember.)
Profiler PROBABLY sets them up correctly so they won't rub. (I bought mine rebranded through Jegs and Jegs installed their own hardware and set them up themselves, Jegs was NOT super careful. Profiler-assembled heads would probably be better.)
Adam
He DID use the SPD flanges for GM Fastburn heads. http://www.spdexhaust.com/pdfs/HeadFlanges/SBC_OEM.pdf
C83532
He said that he still had to slot the bolt holes (because Profiler was dumb and didn't center the bolt holes on the port.)
If you could figure out how much the port has been raised, you MIGHT be able to ask them to build that gasket with the hole move DOWN on the header the same amount to compensate. (Or possibly they'd let you take a rubbing of the heads and mail that to them and have them position the hole to match the heads.) ---That's assuming they'd be willing to adjust the CNC programming for the bolt holes just for you buying a single flange...
I know you're excited about the Profilers and I don't want you to spin on more things to think about, BUT... It was hard to get the intake pushrod off of the intake port wall with a "regular" one-piece guideplate and still have all the rockers pointed straight at the valve tips and that was with the 195cc profilers. If the increase in the 210cc profiler's intake ports come from additional width, that challenge might get bigger. Definitely check to make sure no pushrods are rubbing. I used a dremel and a dremel sandpaper flapper to add more clearance there but the walls can be thin.
The alternative becomes split guide plates or offset rockers, and then split guide plates officially require welding. (One company makes a weld-free split guideplate but $$$ from what I remember.)
Profiler PROBABLY sets them up correctly so they won't rub. (I bought mine rebranded through Jegs and Jegs installed their own hardware and set them up themselves, Jegs was NOT super careful. Profiler-assembled heads would probably be better.)
Adam
every part you choose is a compromise , and may require changes,
that cost you in time, money or performance to some degree,
and almost every part will require a bit of fitting or clearance work,
or adjustment to fit and function to get the best results
if it drops out of the package and bolts together as it drops out of the package,
its almost certain its not functional to nearly its full potential
your job is to think things through carefully and make sure parts fit and function to their full potential,
little things like checking piston ring end gap, verifying bearing clearances, and ccing the heads and checking piston to valve clearance, degreeing in the cam and verifying the valve train geometry, polishing combustion chambers, getting a decent 3 angle valve job, MATTER!
as always it really pays to think things through carefully,
use a build sheet documenting all parts used, machine work done or scheduled and the costs and time required.
this will inevetably result in your having to do some research and ideally not skip over important steps like checking clearances, valve train geometry , parts selection and compatibility issues or lubrication and ignition system issues
break the build down into sections like the block and required machine work, the rotating assembly, heads and valve train, lube and cooling systems, matching the injection, carbs or intake manifolds selected, matching the headers and exhaust system, and of course matching the drive train gearing, differential gearing, tires and brakes to the intendeed useage.
all of these steps requre some research to get the ideal results
that cost you in time, money or performance to some degree,
and almost every part will require a bit of fitting or clearance work,
or adjustment to fit and function to get the best results
if it drops out of the package and bolts together as it drops out of the package,
its almost certain its not functional to nearly its full potential
your job is to think things through carefully and make sure parts fit and function to their full potential,
little things like checking piston ring end gap, verifying bearing clearances, and ccing the heads and checking piston to valve clearance, degreeing in the cam and verifying the valve train geometry, polishing combustion chambers, getting a decent 3 angle valve job, MATTER!
as always it really pays to think things through carefully,
use a build sheet documenting all parts used, machine work done or scheduled and the costs and time required.
this will inevetably result in your having to do some research and ideally not skip over important steps like checking clearances, valve train geometry , parts selection and compatibility issues or lubrication and ignition system issues
break the build down into sections like the block and required machine work, the rotating assembly, heads and valve train, lube and cooling systems, matching the injection, carbs or intake manifolds selected, matching the headers and exhaust system, and of course matching the drive train gearing, differential gearing, tires and brakes to the intendeed useage.
all of these steps requre some research to get the ideal results
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