??
I thought Howard cam wins until roughly the 4200rpm range then Crane wins? Did I read this incorrectly?
Don't we need have crane, AFR, edelbrock dual plane on there to have a full comparison?
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The Inevitable Build Thread
- Thread starter arlowf
- Start date
I thought Howard cam wins until roughly the 4200rpm range then Crane wins? Did I read this incorrectly?
Don't we need have crane, AFR, edelbrock dual plane on there to have a full comparison?
Good point and here it is. Above about 4300 rpm there is not much difference. That's because the AFR Enforcer heads cannot flow any more past that point.
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I'm always amazed at how few guys (even myself ) who really thought things through when they first start in the hobby, about how exactly you access that power curve)
think it through, what are you doing at 2500rpm-4500 rpm, your daily driving or maybe on the highway or maybe passing a different car on the freeway
you rarely have to depress the throttle more than 2/3rds to drive like that, and it only requires about 40hp to maintain cruise speed, at 65 mph in most cars
you'll barely be using any of the potential torque or that power curve in use if your daily driving on the streets in daily transportation,
50-70 hp volks wagons can cruise effortlessly at 70mph, when you want to access that power curve your using the car in (performance mode)
I.E. your street racing or impressing a buddy while passing a car or punching it on the freeway on ramp, or reducing tire tread to expensive smoke in some parking lot, (where's the tach then??) (its in that 4500rpm-6200rpm power band)where you'll like having the power, you don't need nor can you use even 1/2 the potential torque either combo provides at 1/4-2/3rds throttle so in that power range added torque is far less use full, unless your big on throwing gravel and spinning tires from a rolling start at a stop sign.... if you want to smoke the treads off you'll push the throttle down to full on the floor... look at the tach....
(where's the tach then??) (its in that 4500rpm-6200rpm power band)where you'll like having the power.
as RICK, his engine in about a 2000 lb T-bucket produces impressive power but he can briskly accelerate using just 1/2 throttle, if the rpms hit 4500rpm plus, he's in for what could be a basically aim down the highway and hold on ride., sure he has nearly or a bit over 500 hp, but he can barely use it, and rarely can use it if using the car as transportation vs racing.
while its true you may only have 400ft lbs and 250 hp at 2500rpm-3500rpm where you spend 90% of your drive time, you'll rarely use 2/3rds of that power available while you drive, even briskly drive, on the streets, and if racing the rpms on the tach will be noticeably higher,
remember 50-70 hp volks wagons can cruise effortlessly at 70mph,
the problem, some guys have is they forget about the lower rpm driveability issues and select a cam or other components that are designed to produce impressive PEAK power but severely compromise lower rpm driveability, that's not the case with any of the combos discussed here!
as always every choice made is a compromise some where either in your time, wallet or the cars performance or durability
think it through, what are you doing at 2500rpm-4500 rpm, your daily driving or maybe on the highway or maybe passing a different car on the freeway
you rarely have to depress the throttle more than 2/3rds to drive like that, and it only requires about 40hp to maintain cruise speed, at 65 mph in most cars
you'll barely be using any of the potential torque or that power curve in use if your daily driving on the streets in daily transportation,
50-70 hp volks wagons can cruise effortlessly at 70mph, when you want to access that power curve your using the car in (performance mode)
I.E. your street racing or impressing a buddy while passing a car or punching it on the freeway on ramp, or reducing tire tread to expensive smoke in some parking lot, (where's the tach then??) (its in that 4500rpm-6200rpm power band)where you'll like having the power, you don't need nor can you use even 1/2 the potential torque either combo provides at 1/4-2/3rds throttle so in that power range added torque is far less use full, unless your big on throwing gravel and spinning tires from a rolling start at a stop sign.... if you want to smoke the treads off you'll push the throttle down to full on the floor... look at the tach....
(where's the tach then??) (its in that 4500rpm-6200rpm power band)where you'll like having the power.
as RICK, his engine in about a 2000 lb T-bucket produces impressive power but he can briskly accelerate using just 1/2 throttle, if the rpms hit 4500rpm plus, he's in for what could be a basically aim down the highway and hold on ride., sure he has nearly or a bit over 500 hp, but he can barely use it, and rarely can use it if using the car as transportation vs racing.
while its true you may only have 400ft lbs and 250 hp at 2500rpm-3500rpm where you spend 90% of your drive time, you'll rarely use 2/3rds of that power available while you drive, even briskly drive, on the streets, and if racing the rpms on the tach will be noticeably higher,
remember 50-70 hp volks wagons can cruise effortlessly at 70mph,
the problem, some guys have is they forget about the lower rpm driveability issues and select a cam or other components that are designed to produce impressive PEAK power but severely compromise lower rpm driveability, that's not the case with any of the combos discussed here!
as always every choice made is a compromise some where either in your time, wallet or the cars performance or durability
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I would suggest the heads that NewbVetteGuy posted, for only an additional $136 dollars than the AFR Enforcers. He is right they are a steal, they flow considerably more than both the AFR 195 Enforcer's. or the Dart Pro 1.
Below is the comparison of Sim01 vs Sim05, the only difference is the head has changed to the ProFiler from Summit. There are 3 versions available depending on valve spring size and spark plug location. You give a little in the low end, but gain a lot on the top end. It also give you room for upgrades later if you decide to in the future.
www.summitracing.com
www.summitracing.com
www.summitracing.com
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Below is the comparison of Sim01 vs Sim05, the only difference is the head has changed to the ProFiler from Summit. There are 3 versions available depending on valve spring size and spark plug location. You give a little in the low end, but gain a lot on the top end. It also give you room for upgrades later if you decide to in the future.
Profiler Performance Products 176-21P-34-93 Pro-Filer Performance Products Small Block Chevy All American Cylinder Heads | Summit Racing
Free Shipping - Pro-Filer Performance Products Small Block Chevy All American Cylinder Heads with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Cylinder Heads at Summit Racing.
Profiler Performance Products 176-21-34-93 Pro-Filer Performance Products Small Block Chevy All American Cylinder Heads | Summit Racing
Free Shipping - Pro-Filer Performance Products Small Block Chevy All American Cylinder Heads with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Cylinder Heads at Summit Racing.
Profiler Performance Products 176-21-34-92 Pro-Filer Performance Products Small Block Chevy All American Cylinder Heads | Summit Racing
Free Shipping - Pro-Filer Performance Products Small Block Chevy All American Cylinder Heads with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Cylinder Heads at Summit Racing.
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NewbVetteGuy
Well-Known Member
I can't take credit for recommending them. Grumpy recommended them WAY before I did.
I just found that Summit sells a version with the 2.02" valves for MUCH cheaper than with the 2.08" or 2.05" valves.
I DID choose Profiler heads for my own engine, but I only have a 350, so I went with the 195cc version.
I will mention it again for Arlow because it IS important: IF you DO go with the Profiler heads, you will have to go with a 1 3/4" primary header and not the 1 5/8" primary header that you originally mentioned. Those Profiler heads are made to fit at least 1 3/4" primary headers; they have a WIDE D-Port AND they're raised .150" or .250" (I can't remember which) and if you put a 1 5/8" round port header on them the header will block the top of the exhaust port, which is right where the highest velocity and most important air is. It would be a worst-case fitment issue for performance.
-I traced my exhaust ports and bolt holes from my profiler 195cc heads (the exhaust ports are identical from the 185cc up to the 210cc profiler heads, they didn't alter the exhaust ports, they just expect you'll add more cam duration with the bigger heads), then cut out the bolt holes and the ports in the paper tracing with an exacto knife and taped it up to my 1 5/8" headers and it was obvious that I'd have to BOTH port the snot out of the headers to widen the ports AND elongate the bolt holes so that I could mount the headers higher to clear the top of the heads' ports.
THEN months later, I came across the fact that Profiler pretty specifically says they're made to fit a minimum of a 1 3/4" header primary tube.... OOPS!
You want a Felpro 1406 exhaust gasket for the profiler heads, you just have to "scoot it up" on the head and kind of stretch out the bolt hole in the gasket with a bolt in there or elongate the hole in the gasket a little bit.
Adam
Id also point out that going with a 195cc port head on a 350 vs a 210 cc port head has at best a minimal if any positive effect, I've built a couple 350 SBC with 210-215 port heads and rather aggressive roller cams that produced impressive torque & power curves.
now because your cam selection is rather mild I doubt it will negatively affect your results , but just bumping up displacement to a 383 and surely if you built a 496 SBC the choice of a 195cc port and a marginally more aggressive cam would generally cost you a few peak hp.
now because your cam selection is rather mild I doubt it will negatively affect your results , but just bumping up displacement to a 383 and surely if you built a 496 SBC the choice of a 195cc port and a marginally more aggressive cam would generally cost you a few peak hp.
NewbVetteGuy
Well-Known Member
I have that long-runner FIRST TPI-style intake, so my engine was never going to support much RPM.
I also got the heads for $998 including tax and shipping, so I couldn't say no.
If I do another engine build, it will be an SHP-based 406 with the Chad Speier S-Factor 205cc heads. These heads won't make it to the next build.
Someone HAS to clear 500HP NA with a FIRST TPI build and if I get to do a build again the way I want, that goals is happening one way or another. 600 hp with a baby shot of NOS.
There's a guy on the ThirdGen site who will probably beat me to it, if his health holds up. He's already got the parts for the short block, and he's got an unbelievable amount of experience with them and all the right connections, but I really love the shock-factor that 500 HP NA out of a TPI-style engine (and 25+ mpg highway cruise fuel economy) would bring, and even if he beats me to it, it's an idea that I just can't get out of my head.
Adam
Grumpy/Indy/NewVetteGuy,I'm always amazed at how few guys (even myself ) who really thought things through when they first start in the hobby, about how exactly you access that power curve)
think it through, what are you doing at 2500rpm-4500 rpm, your daily driving or maybe on the highway or maybe passing a different car on the freeway
you rarely have to depress the throttle more than 2/3rds to drive like that, and it only requires about 40hp to maintain cruise speed, at 65 mph in most cars
you'll barely be using any of the potential torque or that power curve in use if your daily driving on the streets in daily transportation,
50-70 hp volks wagons can cruise effortlessly at 70mph, when you want to access that power curve your using the car in (performance mode)
I.E. your street racing or impressing a buddy while passing a car or punching it on the freeway on ramp, or reducing tire tread to expensive smoke in some parking lot, (where's the tach then??) (its in that 4500rpm-6200rpm power band)where you'll like having the power, you don't need nor can you use even 1/2 the potential torque either combo provides at 1/4-2/3rds throttle so in that power range added torque is far less use full, unless your big on throwing gravel and spinning tires from a rolling start at a stop sign.... if you want to smoke the treads off you'll push the throttle down to full on the floor... look at the tach....
(where's the tach then??) (its in that 4500rpm-6200rpm power band)where you'll like having the power.
as RICK, his engine in about a 2000 lb T-bucket produces impressive power but he can briskly accelerate using just 1/2 throttle, if the rpms hit 4500rpm plus, he's in for what could be a basically aim down the highway and hold on ride., sure he has nearly or a bit over 500 hp, but he can barely use it, and rarely can use it if using the car as transportation vs racing.
while its true you may only have 400ft lbs and 250 hp at 2500rpm-3500rpm where you spend 90% of your drive time, you'll rarely use 2/3rds of that power available while you drive, even briskly drive, on the streets, and if racing the rpms on the tach will be noticeably higher,
remember 50-70 hp volks wagons can cruise effortlessly at 70mph,
the problem, some guys have is they forget about the lower rpm driveability issues and select a cam or other components that are designed to produce impressive PEAK power but severely compromise lower rpm driveability, that's not the case with any of the combos discussed here!
as always every choice made is a compromise some where either in your time, wallet or the cars performance or durability
I had to read what you said like 6 times and really think about it to get where you are all coming from. My basic understanding/misunderstanding is the RPMS i'll be in when I want to "have fun" from a redlight or peel out. I am going to drive multiple vehicles today and do some stomping and "spirited" driving in regular vehicles (96 5.7 silverado, and a ford fusion) to see where my rpms are during those activities.
I was really struggling to follow what you were saying here because, looking at this chart, the Sim01 lines seem to beat everything up until 4800 rpm. And that seems to be where daily driving occurs. If I "take off" (not floor it) from a redlight, I've watched the tach on a few vehicles i've been in lately and stays below 4500 rpm. I would have to really floor it to get to 5500 rpm, basically street racing. My stall converter is going to be 2800, because I don't want any "looseness" or peddle play, and I'd like a smidge less stall than my power band calls for (3000) to help with transmission cooling. I want to barely toe the peddle and have it go, and the charts above show I should be well into my power band at 2800. I am at 1200 stall right now, for reference.
If I get on the interstate, yes; I want to be able to get up to 75mph and pass cars, but I don't race or show off on the interstate.
I want to hit the peddle to 50-70% throttle from a dead stop and either burnout, have the backend break loose a little, or have a big ass grin on everyone's face. Maybe I'm just a wimpy driver or am I vastly underestimating what rpms I'll be at going "redlight to redlight"?
I think I mentioned early on this is a daily driver, as in literally daily, and I just need help understanding what clearly you all understand that I don't (because you're looking at 4500-5500 rpms).
I know we never talked about budget here but now i'm faced with being well over where I wanted to be due to the expensive heads and header combo needed for the profilers. But i'll just "eat that" if I must, I really want to just focus on what I just said about aluminium/versus steal heat characteristics.
I was about to tell you all I was going to buy the Summit Knockoff of the Edelbrock RPM and paint "EdelSummit" on it, but then this guy made me an offer I couldn't refuse.
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That's more like 3800 rpm, not 4800 rpm.
I think you have the wrong idea about "Stall Speed". Even with a 2800 stall, the car will begin to move immediately when you take your foot off the brake with no additional gas. Yeap, time for some more reading. Just do some research on the topic.
Before committing to buying anything , better make sure new 1-3/4" headers are available and at a price that is acceptable.
@NewbVetteGuy
Will the 1-3/4" headers fit thru the chassis without any modifications?
They actually flow much better everywhere. Also at a later date if you want more camshaft, then the heads will already be there. If you go back and look at the graph in post #63 you can see where the AFR Enforcer heads will not flow any more up high with the hotter camshaft. It's the heads that are the limiting factor.
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I understand the stall speed, the way I worded that I was just saying i'm just throwing extra heat in there for no reason by going with a 3000+.
2800 is the sweet spot. At 4000 you would feel the "looseness" with some setups. There are youtube videos that do a better job of describing what i'm trying to say about high stall speed torque converters.
So these seem to be my options on headers. The D-port is what limits me, and then the whole angle and length thing. I couldn't care less about coating because I'm going to paint them and nobody will see them. But what you are all basically telling me is not only am I buying 300 bucks more expensive heads, my 190 dollar 1 5/8 headers are off the table now. I get it. We've added $800 to this build. So let me ask this: Am I going to notice a big difference on the street driving, assuming (now) that I'll drive with my foot in it everywhere like i'm robbing a bank with the limits of a 700r4 rebuilt (quality parts, rated to 500hp) automatic transmission? I have never had this much power guys, or driven like I had a hot rod. I have a 350 with vortec heads and this cam right now.
Here's what I have now that I know fit 2.5 inch dual exhaust; and mount up to my gen 1 350:
Wow, that's a great price!!!I just bought it for $50 brand new from a guy down the street. So no more single plane talk
I swear, I will never mention a single plane again (this year)!
.
Hooker Headers 11622: Header Flange Kit with Stubs Small Block Chevy 262-400 - JEGS
Get the Best Performance with Hooker Headers Header Flange Kit with Stubs Small Block Chevy 262-400 11622 parts at JEGS. Shop Now at the Guaranteed Lowest Price!
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Hooker Headers 11622HKR Hooker Header Flanges | Summit Racing
Free Shipping - Hooker Header Flanges with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Header Flanges at Summit Racing.
calculating header design
YES THE SUB LINK INFO IS WELL WORTH READING ALSO if your serious about maintaining good peak hp numbers use the calculators in the linked threads to actually calculate the ideal matched header dimensions, this is not a guessing game its strait physics and easily calculated to maximize exhaust...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
building custom headers
theres a great deal of useful info in these links , and sub linked info so don,t skip over them without looking thru carefully, as theres years of experience to be gained yeah its amazing how everything costs ten times what you think it will and takes five times longer to do even at that...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
building an exhaust system for your car
you might want to read thru these threads and linked info first, yes IM well aware it may take several hours to do so but it will save your many more hours and hundreds of dollars to do it correctly and safely. Id bet 80% of the useful infos in the links and sub-links so take some time and...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
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Yes, if I can order the bottom end kit/components and the cam now that allows me to get going on the bottom end, and then get it to the machine shop. I really want to get my butt to work so if we can all come to an agreement on the bottom end components, I can pull the trigger on those. And the heads can show up in late october and I don't need those to go to the machine shop for anything.
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Hooker Headers 11622: Header Flange Kit with Stubs Small Block Chevy 262-400 - JEGS
Get the Best Performance with Hooker Headers Header Flange Kit with Stubs Small Block Chevy 262-400 11622 parts at JEGS. Shop Now at the Guaranteed Lowest Price!just a bit of info, having a DECENT TIG OR MIG welder gives you optionsHooker Headers 11622HKR Hooker Header Flanges | Summit Racing
Free Shipping - Hooker Header Flanges with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Header Flanges at Summit Racing.
calculating header design
YES THE SUB LINK INFO IS WELL WORTH READING ALSO if your serious about maintaining good peak hp numbers use the calculators in the linked threads to actually calculate the ideal matched header dimensions, this is not a guessing game its strait physics and easily calculated to maximize exhaust...garage.grumpysperformance.com
building custom headers
theres a great deal of useful info in these links , and sub linked info so don,t skip over them without looking thru carefully, as theres years of experience to be gained yeah its amazing how everything costs ten times what you think it will and takes five times longer to do even at that...garage.grumpysperformance.com
building an exhaust system for your car
you might want to read thru these threads and linked info first, yes IM well aware it may take several hours to do so but it will save your many more hours and hundreds of dollars to do it correctly and safely. Id bet 80% of the useful infos in the links and sub-links so take some time and...garage.grumpysperformance.com
My brother is a Prevost welder, he is rated as one of the top 20 in the country (some certification thing).
So this is the route i'm taking if you can help me with one point: these say square exhaust openings, but Profiler heads have exhaust holes called "D-Port". So I can't use these particular ones you linked with the profiler heads, right?
as long as the exhaust port entrance in the header flange and stubs in that flange,
is marginally larger internally in cross sectional area,
and there's no rapid and restrictive change in exhaust flow direction, or very rapid deduction in area,
and the header flange does not block the exhaust port exit around its circumference,
the shape of the exhaust pipe is all but meaningless beyond the port
btw
you can generally port and smooth the header flange entrance to some small extent to perfectly match the exhaust ports exit in the head casting
(be sure you match the exhaust gaskets and verify they won't overhang into the ports
is marginally larger internally in cross sectional area,
and there's no rapid and restrictive change in exhaust flow direction, or very rapid deduction in area,
and the header flange does not block the exhaust port exit around its circumference,
the shape of the exhaust pipe is all but meaningless beyond the port
btw
you can generally port and smooth the header flange entrance to some small extent to perfectly match the exhaust ports exit in the head casting
(be sure you match the exhaust gaskets and verify they won't overhang into the ports
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Header flanges with stubs for a Small Block Chevy head
Our header flange kits come with the stubs formed and welded in to make custom header fabrication easier.
www.racemufflers.com
I'm just going to get the right size flange and stubs to begin with. My brother doesn't want to have to deal with the flange to pipe stubs; and I'm going to be doing a lot of the pie cutting and bending myself.
Would have been easier to have sourced some headers that fit my needs that were 2-300 like every other combo. People spend way too much on bent mild steel and paint IMO.
Yeah... I'm just going to buy the correct kit to begin with lol.
Okay, so now we know that I will have 1.75 pipes coming off to a 3" collector to 2.5 dual free flow (expensive mufflers) out the back...
Sounds like it's Howard Cam, Profiler 210 Heads, Edelbrock intake, Edelbrock avs2 800CfM carb.
I'm going to write up the email that I'm sending to the company selling that SBC 383 balanced kit with all the substitutions/upgrades and get everyone's final stamp of approval before sending it.
Sounds like it's Howard Cam, Profiler 210 Heads, Edelbrock intake, Edelbrock avs2 800CfM carb.
I'm going to write up the email that I'm sending to the company selling that SBC 383 balanced kit with all the substitutions/upgrades and get everyone's final stamp of approval before sending it.