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87vette81big
Guest
Never thought of Ammo Cans Grumpy as Steel Mockup tool.
Seen them recent for sale near me.
Must get a few real soon.
Seen them recent for sale near me.
Must get a few real soon.
building a custom wet sump oil pan
- Thread starter grumpyvette
- Start date
8
87vette81big
Guest
I stopped at my local Rural King store a few hours ago Grumpy.
They had .50 calibur Ammo Cans. I think they are China knockoffs.
On sale for $15 each.
Didn't like the bottoms. Spot welded flat seperate sheet.
Are the .30 calibur Ammo cans 1 piece lower cans ?
You have a source ?
Or are they Military Surplus ?
Using stock 425 exhaust manifolds for now.
Headers have to be made later.
Nice option is the 1965 Olds 425 Starfire reproduction Ex Mainfold but its $300.
Have to wait later for that.5,500-6,000 Rpm target range.
So it will stay together without exotic lower end parts.
They had .50 calibur Ammo Cans. I think they are China knockoffs.
On sale for $15 each.
Didn't like the bottoms. Spot welded flat seperate sheet.
Are the .30 calibur Ammo cans 1 piece lower cans ?
You have a source ?
Or are they Military Surplus ?
Using stock 425 exhaust manifolds for now.
Headers have to be made later.
Nice option is the 1965 Olds 425 Starfire reproduction Ex Mainfold but its $300.
Have to wait later for that.5,500-6,000 Rpm target range.
So it will stay together without exotic lower end parts.
8
87vette81big
Guest
I found the 30 Cal Ammo boxes Grumpy.
Want 3 of them.
2 On each side of the 425 Olds stock pan.
1 On the bottom side.
Want at least 11 quarts total volume in the pan.
Original US Surplus . Not China Junk.
Get it done for $100 or less.
Do it myself.
Want 3 of them.
2 On each side of the 425 Olds stock pan.
1 On the bottom side.
Want at least 11 quarts total volume in the pan.
Original US Surplus . Not China Junk.
Get it done for $100 or less.
Do it myself.
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87vette81big
Guest
One more for SHTF.
Jackoff Bam Bam still doing the worst.
Jackoff Bam Bam still doing the worst.
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87vette81big
Guest
Waiting for parts again Grumpy. At work now.
I am excited building my own custom 9-11 Quart oil pan for my 425 Olds.
People are bidding on my parts on Fleabay.
Went to auction style. Multiple bidders going at it.
Have those 30 cal Ammo boxes & spare spending $$$ soon.
I am excited building my own custom 9-11 Quart oil pan for my 425 Olds.
People are bidding on my parts on Fleabay.
Went to auction style. Multiple bidders going at it.
Have those 30 cal Ammo boxes & spare spending $$$ soon.
step (1) on any custom oil pan is youll need a stock oil pan to start with, that you can use to supply the oil pan rails , then, you measure distance from block rails to bottom of oil pump pick-up and pump,you will use , obviously your not easily going to make an oil pan any shallower than about 3/8" deeper than the depth the oil pump extends into the oil pan below the block oil pan rails, and on some oil pump designs the oil pump pick-up must be lower than that distance , on the big block chevy pump the oil pump pick- up can be set about at the same distance from the oil pump base, from the oil pan floor.
it should also be obvious that having the car the oil pan will be used in to measure clearances is critical, and youll need the headers installed and steering linkage etc.naturally a custom sump requires you to measure for header and suspension clearances, don,t forget to leave access for the oil filter and starter to check clearances on the oil pan,keep in mind you can add auxiliary oil coolers or remote mount oil filters to add extra oil capacity.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...mps-and-driveway-enterances.10516/#post-83070
small block oil pump pick-up exit the oil pump bottom plate big block pump pick-ups exit the pump body
in either case your limited and can rarely build a oil pan shallower than 7" in depth , but the length and width has options depending on the frame,suspension, oil filter, headers etc.
STEP 2 leave room to get to the oil filter, and oil pan bolts so they can be tightened or loosened, , if you can,t access the oil pan bolts with the engine in the car youll hate that oil pan and the leaks it is sure to eventually have and do not have the headers , frame or suspension or anything else touch the oil pan, and leave at lease 4" of ground clearance under the oil pan floor with YOUR WEIGHT IN THE CAR
step 3
a oil drain , located on a back vertical lower corner where you can access it and remove it easily when required is a nice feature, but remember to think it thru, if the block saver plate, bell housing, or flywheel is in the way , you have a problem, try not to use lower horizontal surfaces as lower horizontal surfaces tend to get scraped off if they stick down below the oil pan floor level
www.peachloft.com
it should also be obvious that having the car the oil pan will be used in to measure clearances is critical, and youll need the headers installed and steering linkage etc.naturally a custom sump requires you to measure for header and suspension clearances, don,t forget to leave access for the oil filter and starter to check clearances on the oil pan,keep in mind you can add auxiliary oil coolers or remote mount oil filters to add extra oil capacity.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...mps-and-driveway-enterances.10516/#post-83070
small block oil pump pick-up exit the oil pump bottom plate big block pump pick-ups exit the pump body
in either case your limited and can rarely build a oil pan shallower than 7" in depth , but the length and width has options depending on the frame,suspension, oil filter, headers etc.
STEP 2 leave room to get to the oil filter, and oil pan bolts so they can be tightened or loosened, , if you can,t access the oil pan bolts with the engine in the car youll hate that oil pan and the leaks it is sure to eventually have and do not have the headers , frame or suspension or anything else touch the oil pan, and leave at lease 4" of ground clearance under the oil pan floor with YOUR WEIGHT IN THE CAR
step 3
a oil drain , located on a back vertical lower corner where you can access it and remove it easily when required is a nice feature, but remember to think it thru, if the block saver plate, bell housing, or flywheel is in the way , you have a problem, try not to use lower horizontal surfaces as lower horizontal surfaces tend to get scraped off if they stick down below the oil pan floor level
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87vette81big
Guest
I still have the 403 SB Olds in the '63 GP Grumpy & hooked to the Turbo 400 Trans.
Olds 425 on an engine stand.
Olds 425 is a Tall deck design.
Olds 403 is Low deck.
Both oil pans interchange but have to lightly dimple Small block 403 pan at #2 & #3 main cap bolts areas in pan.
Will then bolt on 425 , 400 & 455 Olds engines.
So I can mockup pretty easily.
Been a while since I made and built something custom for myself.
Olds 425 on an engine stand.
Olds 425 is a Tall deck design.
Olds 403 is Low deck.
Both oil pans interchange but have to lightly dimple Small block 403 pan at #2 & #3 main cap bolts areas in pan.
Will then bolt on 425 , 400 & 455 Olds engines.
So I can mockup pretty easily.
Been a while since I made and built something custom for myself.
read thru the whole thread from the start again I went back thru and posted more info where I thought it might help
8
87vette81big
Guest
Thsnks Grumpy.
I am reading.
There is plenty of Room under that 63 GP.
No headers so I can be creative.
Just have Headpipes bent later.
3-1/2 + 3-1/2 + 6-1/2 = 13-1/2 Quarts total sump volume.
I like it.
:mrgreen:
I am reading.
There is plenty of Room under that 63 GP.
No headers so I can be creative.
Just have Headpipes bent later.
3-1/2 + 3-1/2 + 6-1/2 = 13-1/2 Quarts total sump volume.
I like it.
:mrgreen:
87vette81big said:
3.5"x 3.5"x6.5"=79.625 cubic inches==1.37 quarts
you would have to do some thing like weld two 50 cal ammo cans open ends together then weld them to the bottom of a modified oil pan, then cut open access to the ammo cans and add the internal baffles to get that 13 quart capacity something vaugley similar to this, where the new sump extends both forward and out to both sides and down, if you have the room and the welding skill, yeah, its not hard and it can be a great asset to engine durability if correctly designed and built.
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87vette81big
Guest
I went by 2 30 calibur ammo cans welded on complete as side wings sumps & 1 50 calibur Ammo can welded on at 6'oclock complete un trimmed all.grumpyvette said:
Think I have the room to do so Grumpy.
By your stated volume measurements yesterday .
1963 SD 421 11 quart oil pan had a huge lower sump only.
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87vette81big
Guest
I can Mig Weld all day long Grumpy.
Have a Snap On MW120 MIG welder. Nice current control on thin sheetmetal.
Does Square wave pulse timed stitch welding too.
Seperate setting.
There is a Military store in Joliet I want to check out.
Found Nice Ammo cans online. Grade 1 shape.
Not sure how exotic I want to get with Trap doors.
The 63 GP is not a corner G force machine.
Its a Road highway warrior & Dragstrip style machine.
Oil control on Launch most important.
It hooksup fast & hard the Old Pontiac.
Have a Snap On MW120 MIG welder. Nice current control on thin sheetmetal.
Does Square wave pulse timed stitch welding too.
Seperate setting.
There is a Military store in Joliet I want to check out.
Found Nice Ammo cans online. Grade 1 shape.
Not sure how exotic I want to get with Trap doors.
The 63 GP is not a corner G force machine.
Its a Road highway warrior & Dragstrip style machine.
Oil control on Launch most important.
It hooksup fast & hard the Old Pontiac.
CAN YOU BUILD A KILLER OIL PAN? HELL YES YOU CAN! IF YOU THINK IT THRU!
I've built several over the years that far surpassed many commercial pans Ive seen that cost well over $500 plus
before you do the first weld put the car up on jack stands or a lift and get under there!
and measure, you need to know how deep the pan can be, how wide it can be and where all the clearance issues are located, place the ammo cans, use duct tape or a floor jack or what ever is required too get a good accurate visualization of clearances required,the potential sump size, shape and location, as too ,where and how you can fit things, dirt cheap, easily changed 1" thick 12"x12" blocks of styro-foam / or 3/4" Polystyrene Panels are even easier, to give a clear visual reference , you can use as to were the sump will be extended with the ammo cans, while your under the car checking clearances, youll be basically using the panels to duplicate and verify the placement of the soon to be fabricated sump until you fabricate it for real.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-3- ... 5yc1vZbaxx
panels will be trimmed stacked and glued with contact cement to the current oil pan, to the same size as the ammo can sections you intend to use later,panels , that can be used as a guide while under the car,then, remove the oil pan and you have a clear visual record on the pan on your work bench. showing you how too do it correctly the first time because making corrections later to correct mistakes too gain required clearance late in the process SUCKS ! CAREFUL MEASUREMENT AND PLANING BEATS DOING IT OVER SEVERAL TIMES!
as to flow gates I generally try to have a top floor slosh plate under the windage tray with all the baffles and flow gates welded into it hanging below in one easily removable component fore ease of maintenance and cleaning , you can either design it too bolt into the oil pan or onto the windage tray support studs , so the oil pan simply drops over it, obviously in either case care must be taken to insure the lower edge of the baffle walls come very close too contacting the oil pan floor so oil flow is restricted by the one direction hinge gates.
an upper slosh plate under the windage tray that directs oil flow to the rear sump but prevents flow surge under hard braking from moving forward , bolted to a set of lower baffles like these below that fits snugly between welded in side baffles works great
this would be a great project for a set of detailed sequenced , step-by-step photos shown in progression as to measuring and fabrication of that oil pan on the car
I've built several over the years that far surpassed many commercial pans Ive seen that cost well over $500 plus
before you do the first weld put the car up on jack stands or a lift and get under there!
and measure, you need to know how deep the pan can be, how wide it can be and where all the clearance issues are located, place the ammo cans, use duct tape or a floor jack or what ever is required too get a good accurate visualization of clearances required,the potential sump size, shape and location, as too ,where and how you can fit things, dirt cheap, easily changed 1" thick 12"x12" blocks of styro-foam / or 3/4" Polystyrene Panels are even easier, to give a clear visual reference , you can use as to were the sump will be extended with the ammo cans, while your under the car checking clearances, youll be basically using the panels to duplicate and verify the placement of the soon to be fabricated sump until you fabricate it for real.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-3- ... 5yc1vZbaxx
panels will be trimmed stacked and glued with contact cement to the current oil pan, to the same size as the ammo can sections you intend to use later,panels , that can be used as a guide while under the car,then, remove the oil pan and you have a clear visual record on the pan on your work bench. showing you how too do it correctly the first time because making corrections later to correct mistakes too gain required clearance late in the process SUCKS ! CAREFUL MEASUREMENT AND PLANING BEATS DOING IT OVER SEVERAL TIMES!
as to flow gates I generally try to have a top floor slosh plate under the windage tray with all the baffles and flow gates welded into it hanging below in one easily removable component fore ease of maintenance and cleaning , you can either design it too bolt into the oil pan or onto the windage tray support studs , so the oil pan simply drops over it, obviously in either case care must be taken to insure the lower edge of the baffle walls come very close too contacting the oil pan floor so oil flow is restricted by the one direction hinge gates.
an upper slosh plate under the windage tray that directs oil flow to the rear sump but prevents flow surge under hard braking from moving forward , bolted to a set of lower baffles like these below that fits snugly between welded in side baffles works great
this would be a great project for a set of detailed sequenced , step-by-step photos shown in progression as to measuring and fabrication of that oil pan on the car
8
87vette81big
Guest
Ok Grumpy. I will plan on putting flow gates in there.
And a braking baffle.
Homemade windage screen was my plan.
Have to read some more of your links.
Only so much free time after work in 1 day.
The flow gates shown look entirely custom Fabbed from scratch.
Are they ?
Have to check Speedway Motors & see what they have current for pan parts.
And a braking baffle.
Homemade windage screen was my plan.
Have to read some more of your links.
Only so much free time after work in 1 day.
The flow gates shown look entirely custom Fabbed from scratch.
Are they ?
Have to check Speedway Motors & see what they have current for pan parts.
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87vette81big
Guest
Ebay selling is going great Grumpy.
Have enough to build that custom AMMO BOX 425 OLDS PAN. :mrgreen:
4-days left on 1 auction....they want that C4 ZR-1 Part I have.
Have enough to build that custom AMMO BOX 425 OLDS PAN. :mrgreen:
4-days left on 1 auction....they want that C4 ZR-1 Part I have.
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87vette81big
Guest
I am going to sneak off on Fathers Day Grumpy.
Get to my other garage.
Look at the GP underneath. Measure & check.
I plan in doing a build thread.
Miss driving that car.
Easiest & lowest cost project to complete I have.
Hard to desribe just how good those old 1959-64 Pontiac B body Tin Indians Drive.
I know you recall too.
Its faster than the 87 Corvette Vert 0-120 in 1/4 mile +.
403 Smog Olds engine.
Get to my other garage.
Look at the GP underneath. Measure & check.
I plan in doing a build thread.
Miss driving that car.
Easiest & lowest cost project to complete I have.
Hard to desribe just how good those old 1959-64 Pontiac B body Tin Indians Drive.
I know you recall too.
Its faster than the 87 Corvette Vert 0-120 in 1/4 mile +.
403 Smog Olds engine.
8
87vette81big
Guest
I went through and read every single Link of yours last night Grumpy on this thread.
I dreamed of custom oil pan designs to build.
Drag Racing.
And Street Racing in the '63 Poncho GP & My 70-1/2 TA just as I did in my younger years.
Call of Duty.
50-100 guys out on 2 lane blacktop country backroads marked off for 1/4 mile.
And not a cop in sight at 2-3 AM.
All had a chance to line them up. Run Em. Race & Win.
I dreamed of custom oil pan designs to build.
Drag Racing.
And Street Racing in the '63 Poncho GP & My 70-1/2 TA just as I did in my younger years.
Call of Duty.
50-100 guys out on 2 lane blacktop country backroads marked off for 1/4 mile.
And not a cop in sight at 2-3 AM.
All had a chance to line them up. Run Em. Race & Win.
8
87vette81big
Guest
Your threads don't cover much outside of the Chevrolet camp Grumpy.
The most sucessfull design Drag Racing was from Mopar Chrysler.
440 Wedge & 426 Hemi.
The Central located Deep Sump worked Great.
Vintage Mopar muslecars had a K Frame design intentioal too allow to fit.
Excellent High RPM oil control & High G Force launches Drag Racing.
Ingenious design.
Allowed the Hemi Race 426 to turn 9K RPMS and have adequate oil control at all times.
#2 design was the 1963 Pontiac SD421 Catalina & GP 11 Quart Oil pan.
Found your Ammo box link too.
Was hidden. Bookmarked it.
We are going to build a One off Olds 425 S engine Ammo Box oil pan soon.
11 Quart Min Volume sump. May turn out to be near 14-15 quarts when done.
The most sucessfull design Drag Racing was from Mopar Chrysler.
440 Wedge & 426 Hemi.
The Central located Deep Sump worked Great.
Vintage Mopar muslecars had a K Frame design intentioal too allow to fit.
Excellent High RPM oil control & High G Force launches Drag Racing.
Ingenious design.
Allowed the Hemi Race 426 to turn 9K RPMS and have adequate oil control at all times.
#2 design was the 1963 Pontiac SD421 Catalina & GP 11 Quart Oil pan.
Found your Ammo box link too.
Was hidden. Bookmarked it.
We are going to build a One off Olds 425 S engine Ammo Box oil pan soon.
11 Quart Min Volume sump. May turn out to be near 14-15 quarts when done.
8
87vette81big
Guest
Recalling my reading from last night Grumpy & an old post by you back in 2008.
What is a Canton Power Box Exactly ?
The link states Canton has a proprietary way pf Funneling oil back around the Main sump well pickup Screen inlet.
No pictures.
Google has no results related.
Familiar with Milodon & Moroso Drag Racing oil pans.
What is a Canton Power Box Exactly ?
The link states Canton has a proprietary way pf Funneling oil back around the Main sump well pickup Screen inlet.
No pictures.
Google has no results related.
Familiar with Milodon & Moroso Drag Racing oil pans.
a "power box " is a rather simple concept that is typically ignored because it makes fabricating an oil pan more complicated and expensive to build
if you look at about 90% of all engine oil pans you see the bolts that fasten the oil pan to the block go thru a flange into the blocks lower casting , rail
similar to this picture, where the outer wall of the oil pan is closer to the crank center line than the bolts securing the oil pan gasket
this configuration is almost universal, however , if the, oil pan gasket and sealing rail are secured with bolts extending up thru tubes extending thru the oil pan sump the outer wall of the oil pan can be moved a couple inches further out away from the crank center line, similar to this oil pan, extending this oil pan wall outwards greatly increases the oil collecting efficiency of the windage screen and crank scraper combo and sharply reduces the drag induced by oil carried by the rotating assembly at high rpms, plus it much more quickly returns oil to the oil pump for reuse, add a vacuum pump to the crank case and efficiency increases even further
this configuration allows the insertion of a crank scraper or dedicated oil shear, and an area for oil to be thrown, and collected and redirected efficiently back to the oil pump.
below an oil pan with an extended side sump but without the correct placement and matched crank scraper added it lost much of its potential gains, still better than a standard design but far less than the real power box with outer wall and inside crank scraper design
WELL DESIGNED AND PROPERLY INSTALLED BAFFLED OIL PANS,WINDAGE TRAYS AND CRANK SCRAPERS GO A LONG WAY TO INCREASING ENGINE DURABILITY THRU BETTER MORE CONSISTENT OIL FLOW RATES
yes you can (and probably should) take the time to fabricate a windage screen similar too the one shown in the link above,
or in these link's
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-mods-that-help.2187/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/building-a-custom-wet-sump-oil-pan.65/
http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ScreenInstall.pdf
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTR-20-906/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/whats-a-windage-tray-do.64/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/custom-windage-tray.10490/
http://www.colemanracing.com/Windage-Screen-P3831.aspx
http://www.musclecardiy.com/performance/how-to-build-racing-engines-sumps-and-oiling/#
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-0603-oil-pan-design-windage-tech/
https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/pr ... POWER-PAN/
notice the $900 price tag, thats not all that rare on that type of oil pan
GOT AN LS engine swap?
http://www.mastmotorsports.com/view.php?id=160&c=49&s=7
if you look at about 90% of all engine oil pans you see the bolts that fasten the oil pan to the block go thru a flange into the blocks lower casting , rail
similar to this picture, where the outer wall of the oil pan is closer to the crank center line than the bolts securing the oil pan gasket
this configuration is almost universal, however , if the, oil pan gasket and sealing rail are secured with bolts extending up thru tubes extending thru the oil pan sump the outer wall of the oil pan can be moved a couple inches further out away from the crank center line, similar to this oil pan, extending this oil pan wall outwards greatly increases the oil collecting efficiency of the windage screen and crank scraper combo and sharply reduces the drag induced by oil carried by the rotating assembly at high rpms, plus it much more quickly returns oil to the oil pump for reuse, add a vacuum pump to the crank case and efficiency increases even further
this configuration allows the insertion of a crank scraper or dedicated oil shear, and an area for oil to be thrown, and collected and redirected efficiently back to the oil pump.
below an oil pan with an extended side sump but without the correct placement and matched crank scraper added it lost much of its potential gains, still better than a standard design but far less than the real power box with outer wall and inside crank scraper design
WELL DESIGNED AND PROPERLY INSTALLED BAFFLED OIL PANS,WINDAGE TRAYS AND CRANK SCRAPERS GO A LONG WAY TO INCREASING ENGINE DURABILITY THRU BETTER MORE CONSISTENT OIL FLOW RATES
yes you can (and probably should) take the time to fabricate a windage screen similar too the one shown in the link above,
or in these link's
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-mods-that-help.2187/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/building-a-custom-wet-sump-oil-pan.65/
http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ScreenInstall.pdf
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTR-20-906/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/whats-a-windage-tray-do.64/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/custom-windage-tray.10490/
http://www.colemanracing.com/Windage-Screen-P3831.aspx
http://www.musclecardiy.com/performance/how-to-build-racing-engines-sumps-and-oiling/#
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-0603-oil-pan-design-windage-tech/
https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/pr ... POWER-PAN/
notice the $900 price tag, thats not all that rare on that type of oil pan
GOT AN LS engine swap?
http://www.mastmotorsports.com/view.php?id=160&c=49&s=7
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