Quality engine parts don't come in plain white boxes!

Can I use new lifters on a just broken in camshaft - only 2.5 hours run time on engine test stand?

  • It will never work. Guaranteed failure.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • You might get lucky.

    Votes: 4 80.0%
  • In your case, no problem, go for it. As long you do a proper break-in with the correct moly paste.

    Votes: 1 20.0%

  • Total voters
    5
  • Poll closed .
WOW. Isky should paying you. I checked their site. Just part numbers and very poor descriptions, IMO. Who cares as long as their parts are good.
Also its not necessary to groove lifter bores using Isky.
They offer EDM Drilled lifter faces for additional cam lobe oiling if want it.
I thought you couldn't have EDM holes in HYD lifters, only solids. That's why they use the "camsaver groove" (machined flat on side from oil band to the bottom face) on HYD. It does not supply this extra oiling to the ideal contact point all the time because the lifter spins, but it is certainly better than nothing.
My next test was going to be installing a Crane HYD (uses no piddle valves), but I love your idea about putting a couple of solids in there and running the oil pump. I have Crowers on the shelf. I will try both.
I did a bunch of inspecting today, the last thing I did was to change the spin-on oil filter adapter. I won't keep you in suspense - NO DIFFERENCE, as I figured. I will post what I checked tonight with photos. Time to get ready for work.
This is starting to not be fun anymore. The only things it could be now is the rear cam bearing position(doubtful), a plug cutting off the oil supply to both lifter galleries(doubtful), and those lifters.
Quite a few Corvair owners are having this exact problem. The replacement lifter for their engines is the SBC HYD lifter. I'll attach a link later.
 
If you call up Isky Cams and ask for Ron Iskenderien and talk to him he will make anything you want within reason .

Right now I have One Set of Isky 202 HY Solid Flat Tappets for my Pontiac 455 V8. Ron EDM Drilled the lifter faces for me.
I have one set of Isky 202 Hydraulic lifters for my 1965 Olds 425 V8. Non EDM drilled.
I have one set if Crower Solid Flat Tappet Race Lifters EDM drilled face for a SBC my 410ci V8.
If you were closer We could experiment.

My 3-sets if lifters are not China Made.
USA GUARANTEED .
 
When it comes to Roller Cams for performance I would only choose A Solid Roller Design.
Your going to spend lots of money.
Why limit yourself by Hydraulic lifters ?
Setting valvelash is a pleasure for me.
ISKY REDZONE LIFTERS I WOULD ONLY USE.
OR NEEDLE BEARING FREE ISKY LIFTERS.
 
Here's the link to the Corvair post: http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,673214,page=1

OK Grumpy, you sent this and I started on it today:
Anytime your tracing a failure to get oil flow you'll generally start at the oil pump and oil pump pick-up. If you have good steady oil pressure readings on the gauge, yet the rockers don,t seem to flow oil well and especially if they are aftermarket rockers, you might be dealing with badly set up rocker geometry, defective rockers or restrictive clearances, but one very common cause is simply not correctly adjusting the valve train clearances. Simply backing off the adjustment nuts on the rockers while the engine idles until they click audibly at idle, then slowly tightening just until the clicking stops then adding an additional 1/4 turn of preload as the engine idles works well on most engines.
digital inspection camera.jpg
I will verify the pickup to pan clearance with my newly purchased digital inspection camera after I drain the oil.
It's not the issue right now.

2) check the oil passages and cam bearing alignment
I'm still inspecting the oil passages. I know the oil flows to the filter because I turned the oil pump while I was changing the oil filter adapter. I will verify cam bearing alignment with my newly purchased digital inspection camera after I drain the oil.


3) verify oil flow enters BOTH the lifter galleries under pressure
I'm still working on this one. I don't believe that this is the problem. There is 57 psi at the oil sending unit port.
First I will swap out a few lifters for known good ones (Crane HYD and Crower solids) and run the oil pump again.


4) verify oil leaves the lifters and flows through the rockers
Lifter test first. Then back to #3 if this test fails.


5) and drains back to the sump, quickly and with minimal restriction to flow

No problems here.

1/9/2016
I removed the MSD distributor and compared it's shaft to my prelubing tool (cut down Chevy dist). The passage between the oil bands that seal the passenger side lifter gallery are .115" wider than on a stock Chevy distributor. Notice I machined the .030" x .030" groove into the lower band to oil the cam & distributor gears. BTW, is the dimple on the distributor gear supposed to align with the rotor, or it makes no difference? Because I hate the oil weep you sometimes get where the distributor meets the intake manifold, I have a reducing bushing installed there. Some aftermarket intakes have HUGE distributor holes. I think I machined the intake many years ago to compensate for its thickness. The bushing is .115" thick and I use Black Max Oil Resistance Permatex between it and the intake. I removed the bushing and with nothing on that surface of the intake, the distributor is held off the intake by about the thickness of a distributor gasket. So with the bushing installed, I am not forcing the oil pump's gear into its cover when clamped down (wearing the oil pump), and the lower oil bands are properly positioned.
DIST Chevy & MSD (2).jpg dist bushing.jpg
The pushrods are properly located in the lifter's seats, and there is no interference at the guide slots in the heads.
pushrod.jpg
I put safety pins through the rocker's holes and into the pushrods to make sure oil was able to flow out.
rockers no obstructions 6 & 8.jpg
I installed the preluber with nothing between it and the block. When I run the oil pump, I make sure not to push down on the drill motor, which would push the oil pump's gear into its cover. Both valve covers are off. The engine is at #1 TDC. Within 2 revolutions of the oil pump, I had 57 psi on the oil gauge (tapped at oil sending unit port). But nothing at the rockers. I tried it a few more times, watching the lifters for any oil leaking there. Nothing. Just the way its supposed to be. And just like when I fire the engine, it took a total of about 3 minutes before I saw a pathetic ooze of oil at the rockers, with #2 Ex being the slowest.
#2 ooze.jpg
I switched the blocked bypass spin-on oil filter adapter for the new, unmolested one. It can go either way and does not use a gasket - I researched this. While it was off, I bumped the drill motor and oil easily shot of the hole that feeds the oil filter. I ran the oil pump after this change and there was NO DIFFERENCE (still the same at the rockers), as I suspected.
stock OF adapter.jpg
Knowing that, and that I have plenty of pressure at oil sending unit port, then I have verified that the plug under the rear main bearing cap is there. Also the plug in the deck by the oil pressure sending unit port.
sbcoilh5a.jpg
I know I positioned the rear cam bearing just like in this photo.
rear cam bearing.png
Unless I'm not seeing this correctly, as long as this bearing is in its proper position, the lifter galleries must get oil. The bearing would have had to move at least 1/4" forward to create a huge leak here. If this were the case, the mains would not get oil and this engine would have seized already. The front lifter gallery plugs are installed just like they were the 1st time around, so I doubt if they are the problem.
Oiling_350.jpg
So the next test will be swapping out some lifters for known good ones (Crane HYD and Crower solids).
I dipped a strong magnet in the oil I captured from changing the OF adapter - nothing magnetic on it.
My block has the 1/8" plug near the top of the timing cover. What gallery does this tap into? I already have a gauge ready to connect to it.
 
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Why limit yourself by Hydraulic lifters ?
This will be a daily driver (84 TransAm) with the power that the car should have come with from the factory.
And I will be turning 6000 rpm max.
What style of valving is in those Isky 202 Hydraulic lifters?
Do you have an ISKY tattoo?;)
 
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That is A Good Idea actually .
John is from New York with a 1971 Heavy Metal Chevelle.
About 1-1/2 years ago he had a camshsft failure in his SBC.
I talked to him PM Too.
He Chose an Iskenderien Flat Tappet Hydraulic Cam. He installed it himself.
Broke it in .
Absolutely ZERO ISSUES . BURNING RUBBER AT WILL.
HE IS A MECHANICAL ENGINEER.
Also a Part Time Tatoo Artist.
Maybe I should look him up.
Pay what he needs and get my ISKY TATOO ON MY FOREARM !
 
I have a few Isky Catalogs.
Dating from present back to 1970.
Ron Iskenderien is Ultra Conservative.
If your a Liberal like Obama he won't like You.
Best to go away.
You want a Red Rider imitation CHINA BB GUN ?
OR S&W 44 MAG TO MAKE DIRTY HARRY CLINT EASTWOOD HAPPY & PROUD ? !
ISKY CAMS IS THE 44 MAG .
 
You want a Red Rider imitation CHINA BB GUN ?
I still have my Red Rider BB gun. How long will it be before the Government says I can't have it?

So you had a GREAT idea about testing with the solid lifters. And that gave me another great idea. Engine is TDC #1.
I removed #7 Ex lifter (which is right after the rear cam bearing) and ran the oil pump with the preluber. Instantly, oil gushed from the lifter hole and was filling the lifter valley. So NO LACK OF OIL there. I knew I got everything right, and it was the lifters. Next I put a SOLID Crower with EDM hole in there. I set the pushrod in the PR seat of the lifter with no rocker arm installed. I ran the oil pump again and within 30 seconds there was an adequate flow coming out of the end of the pushrod. The Delphi lifters had their pathetic ooze. Next I installed an old style HYD Crane with camsaver groove. With just the pushrod, I ran the oil pump again and did not get any oil. So I installed the rocker and tightened it down, opening the valve because this lobe is almost at max lift. I ran the oil pump again and did not get any oil. I loosened the polylock and set it for 1/2 turn preload and ran the pump again. No oil, but when I removed the pushrod, it drained about a quarter of a pushrod worth of oil. So it was trying to fill. Next I installed a HYD Stanadyne (the same type that came with this latest camshaft). With just the pushrod, I got the same amount of oil flow as the Crower solid, but it took about a minute and a half to do it. Next I installed a different Crane without the camsaver groove. With just the pushrod, I got a flow after about a minute and fifteen seconds, but the flow was less volume than the Crower and Stanadyne. For the final test, I removed #8 Ex lifter and ran the oil pump. Just like the other bank, instantly, oil gushed from the lifter hole and was filling the lifter valley. So NO LACK OF OIL there, either. If I do any more of these tests, I will try the solid Crowers at the front of the block at #1 Ex & #2 Ex. Besides, I'm curious as to whether the oil flows to the lifter galleries only from the rear, or are they also fed from the front?
The 2 Delphi lifters I removed have a "funny" wear pattern - concentric rings, kinda like a bullseye. On #7 Ex, one of those rings is worn into the base by 1 or 2 thousandths. You can just catch your fingernail on it. Looking through the lifter hole, that cam lobe also looks a little "funny". The lobe is not completely shiny, yet, but on the opening flank almost at the top of the lobe, there is a gray (unworn) patch. At a quick glance, you might think that there was a chip out of it, but I'm making it sound worse than it is. I don't know, but that spot could correspond to the worn ring on the lifter base. I'll post a couple of photos of these lifters tomorrow.
So at this point, I'm thinking that I can't get away with just installing a new set of lifters. I will have to pull the camshaft and do a careful inspection. If I used the Stanadyne lifters that were supplied with the cam, I probably would have been alright. I thought I was using a better lifter, because this cam & lifter set was purchased during THE GREAT LIFTER SHORTAGE. So I did not want to take the chance that Crane threw any lifters they could get their hands on in the box. On the plus side, the mains & rods and cam lobes were not starving for oil.

It has been in the 20s the last few days. Today we got heavy rain and it warmed up to 55-60 degrees. The engine was covered in condensation, inside and out. You would think I did these tests out in the rain. I have a new appreciation for the conditions our vehicles have to withstand.
 
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I am truly amazed at the length you will go to test the different parameters
associated with your oiling problem. Keep up the good problem solving skills
you have, they will server you well in the future.

Looks like you have just about solved your problem ......Won't know for sure
until you change out the lifters AND get proper oiling. I must say you are
persistent SOB!
BTW, That's a good thing.
 
I must say you are
persistent SOB!
BTW, That's a good thing.
Agreed. Mostly, it's a curse. You can't fix a problem until you understand what's going on completely.
This are the kinds of things that happen to me all the time. A normal person would have given up on
this a long time ago. A later model roller cam 350 block would have been an easier (and cheaper) way
to go, but I'm stubborn. Now, it's war! And I shall win.
 
Nice troubleshooting.
Check the cam out of the block carefully.
Any visuals that appear iffy replace the camshaft too.

The base of the lifters should be perfect polished like a 100% pure Silver mirror.
Zero blemishes .
A straight edge across the lifter base will show defects too.
 
I removed all of the lifters today. Camshaft will be coming out next.
Wait until you see the photos I post later of the lifter bases.

Why would some of my pushrods be MAGNETIZED?
They have been kept together the whole time and none have ever been near a magnet.
WTF???
 
When I use the lifter bore grooves, I have always suggested a big block style oil pump be used as those grooves allow part of the oil flow to take a short cut out the lower lifter bore to keep the cam lobe/lifter contact area well lubricated, but that also means LESS oil reaching the bearings and rockers than you would have with the identical set-up without the lifter bore groove thus adding extra oil flow volume with the larger 12 tooth oil pump makes up for the lost volume

sbcvsbbcgears.jpg


10552 high flow SBC 4 BOLT COVER OIL PUMP
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-10552

High volume performance oil pump.
10% increase in volume over stock oil pump.
The 10552 is manufactured with the drive and idler shafts extended to allow for additional support in the cover eliminating dynamic shaft deflection at increased RPM levels.
The cover is doweled to the pump housing to assure alignment of the shaft bores.
Screw in plug retains relief valve spring instead of pin.
Relief hole in cover uses screw in plug instead of pressed cup plug.
All bolts are self locking socket heads, with the wrench supplied.
The housing and cover are CNC machined and phosphate coated.
Includes intermediate shaft with steel guide. Uses both 3/4” bolt on or press in screen.
The lower pressure spring is included to reduce pressure if desired.
Patent No. 5,810,571.
mel-10778c_w.jpg

10778C (Anti-Cavitation)
(NOTICE ITS A 5 BOLT BIG BLOCK HIGH VOLUME OIL PUMP WITH A 3/4" pickup and the 12 tooth gears thats preferred if the lifter grooves are used)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-10778
High volume performance upgrade for the 10770.
Increase in volume of 25% over stock oil pump.
The same as the 10778 except with the addition of grooves machined in the housing and cover. The grooves reduce cavitation effects in high RPM applications.
Using this oil pump will reduce pressure at idle.
Includes intermediate shaft with steel guide.
Uses 3/4” press in screen.
Racing applications only.
Patent No. 5,810,571


A-ENGINE-OIL-02-small-block-v8-lub-sys.gif

265_oil-2.jpg


sbcoilh3.jpg


sbcoilh4.jpg

sbcoilh5a.jpg

sbcoilh6a.jpg


frontgroove.JPG


SBOilSystem2.jpg
 
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That mel-10552 is a nice unit. I'll use that next time. Right now, I'm using the traditional High Volume (25%), Standard Pressure pump. I reused the bypass spring from the pump that came from GM in the original engine. Also the cover because it had a larger inlet hole than the cover that came with the HV pump.
Covers.png
On the 1st rebuild, I used a HVSP pump with the stiffer bypass spring, and had a little more pressure than I wanted. This engine, even with the grooved lifter bores, has the pressures I hoped for - 38# hot idle and bypasses at 57#. The stock gauge in the car goes to 60 psi and I will turn 6000 rpm max.

Unfortunately, I am stuck with the stock 4 quart oil pan because of the clearance between the bottom of the pan and frame. If I remember correctly, I can't even use a pan that has a bigger curve at the front. I would love to use this pan, but I can't.
s-l1600.jpg s-l1600 (2).jpg s-l1600 (3).jpg

Now for these lifter photos. The good-looking one is a solid lifter from a 302 Chevy with probably less than 10 hours of run time on it on the engine test stand. It's what I hoped the Delphi lifters were going to look like.
The other 2 came out of this engine (2.5 total hours run time). On the left is the best looking one, on the right is the worst. I've never seen anything like this. Probably no hydraulic flat tappet lifter engineers have, either. They all were clearly rotating, so ???
solid & delphi (2).jpg 3 lifter bases (2).png Delphi 7 & 8.png worst.png
The only guess I can come up with is that the combination of the lifter bore grooves (increased oiling), the reduced pressure of the break-in valve springs, and the proper lubes and break-in oil and additives all contributed to too little friction. I don't know. If so, if the cam can be reused with a new set of lifters, then the break-in may take a longer time than the usual 1/2 hour, and hopefully it will never wear out. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this.


 
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Pull the cam out and examime all the lobes carefully.
Measure each with a calibrated Micrometer if possible .
 
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I really hate to say this but it sure looks like, both the cam and lifters are in the early stages of failing
if you can,t use a large capacity baffled oil pan, you can accomplish about the same result with an oil accumulator, and you might want to consider the extra length oil filters if you can use those.

yeah! a few links that may help, some one reading through the thread before they get into similar issues, a couple hours spent reading through links will usually reduce the chances of problems , youll generally find a few tips or ideas that you may never of thought of checking or using.
If you do enough engine rebuilds with new cams,we all have had cams fail, but I,ve only lost one ,out of dozens installed in the last 30 plus years so the details and clearance checks do mater


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-accumulator.1280/#post-48139


http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...k-after-a-cam-lobe-rod-or-bearings-fail.2919/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-filters-related-info.2080/#post-22579

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ans-cooler-on-a-c4-corvette.10514/#post-44478

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/cam-wear-articles-you-need-to-read.282/


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/magnets.120/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-train-clearances-and-problems.528/


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-mods-that-help.2187/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/building-a-custom-wet-sump-oil-pan.65/


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/yes-the-oil-filter-you-sellect-does-make-a-differance.117/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-spring-cooling-via-engine-oil.6491/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/which-oil-what-viscosity.1334/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/trash-in-the-oil-passages-and-improved-oil-flow-mods.3834/
 
Your Supposed to tear the engine down after a camshaft and lifter failure.
Overhaul the engine.
Since your oil filter bypass was blocked off with a pipe plug maybe the filter caught the debris.

You have to be pissed.

Pontiac V8 guys never groove the lifter bores.
I never did and never will.
On anything .
 
Its about 5 degrees F here.
My 1994 K 1500 Suburban with the 350 TBI engine with Flat tappet hydraulic cam Fired up.
Didn't miss a beat driving home from work.
Lifter bores are stock.
Stock oil pan too.
There is a 1967 -70 Z28 Camaro Melling oil pump on it.
M55A Melling pump.
Standard volume High Pressure.
I had 90 psi on guage when she fired up in the cold tonight.
 
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