Quality engine parts don't come in plain white boxes!

Loves302Chevy · Jan 13, 2016

87vette81big said:
Its about 5 degrees F here.
My 1994 K 1500 Suburban with the 350 TBI engine with Flat tappet hydraulic cam Fired up.
Didn't miss a beat driving home from work.
Lifter bores are stock.
Stock oil pan too.
There is a 1967 -70 Z28 Camaro Melling oil pump on it.
M55A Melling pump.
Standard volume High Pressure.
I had 90 psi on guage when she fired up in the cold tonight.

What's that day of the week that you hope your truck was built on? You got one of those.

87vette81big said:
What's your plan now Loves 302 ?

Well, I'm now a couple of steps backwards. Today I inserted 1 lifter each at the rear of each oil gallery and ran the oil pump
to see if oil was also fed to the lifter galleries from the front. NO, as I thought. The oil is supplied from the rear, only.
I wanted to see if the lifter bases looked worse than they actually were. So I took the best one and worst one and lightly rubbed
them on a fine flat stone in a circular motion for about 2 minutes each in my parts washer using the solution to "wet sand" the bases.
They cleaned up easily.
Then I was inspecting the lobes through the lifter bores, and they looked good. So good that I thought about just coating the lobes and the Crane (Stanadyne) lifters (originally supplied with this camshaft) with the moly cam paste and trying it again.
But I NEVER get that lucky, and I wanted to coat the lobes well (better than I could through the lifter bores), and all I had left was to remove
the 2-piece front cover and fuel pump to get the camshaft out. When I got to #6 Intake lobe, I found a flat spot. No reusing this camshaft!
Only .038" is gone from the lobe. The lifter that came off this lobe still had all of its crown, but the edge was a little sharp as I ran my finger over it.

I drained the oil to get ready for whatever the next step will be, and saw the silver clouds. My home-made neodymium drain plug had gunk
stuck to it this time. Hopefully, that magnet, the 57# pull ring magnet stuck to the end of the oil filter, and the filter itself trapped the debris.

So I plan to do the diesel fuel flush and run the oil pump while rotating the engine a few revolutions by hand. Then I will blow the block out
with compressed air. When I'm sure it's dry, I will get some new oil in there and run the oil pump again to coat everything. I am NOT taking the bottom end apart. BTW, everything I have done so far is with the intake manifold ON. I'm not removing that either.

The cam bearings look great and my main & rod bearings are these:
King Silicon Alecular Bearings:
The silicon particles help round off high spots on the crank surface during engine operation, which reduces friction & related wear. Because the bearings are unplated, wall variances are reduced by as much as 40% less than tri-metal (over-plated copper lead) bearings. KING's SI bearings easily exceed maximum peak load capacity for car and light duty applications. Minimized debris embedment, SI bearings are unplated and bored, hard-particle debris is instantly flushed through the bearing and filtered out of engine rather than scoring the crankshaft and causing long term damage.

Main KING Silicon Alecular MB557SI .010
Rod KING Silicon Alecular CR865AM .010 + .002 OD w/Housing Bore Resized .002" Larger Than Stock

Now I'm back to choosing a cam & lifters. I'm NOT going roller. And NO GM Delphi type flat disc inertia "piddle" valve lifters - they are in roller lifters also. I like the simplicity of a flat tappet. Less parts to go wrong and no needle bearings going through your engine, destroying everything if the roller lifters fail. Flat tappets still work with the right oil and additives - ask 87vette81big. 360,000 miles and counting. Here comes another ISKY plug.

If I could get a small enough solid flat tappet that would work with my combo, I would. But their rpm ranges begin at about 1000 rpm higher than I can use. With all the work I've done to these heads, I can now probably get away with a single pattern camshaft. I haven't had them flow tested, but I found numbers from the 4" bore 72 cc versions. They flow better then Vortecs. I'm looking for strong upper bottom end and mid range, a fair idle - not real lopey (I don't care about what other people think about the sound - I have to drive it), about 1700-5700 rpm, 10:1 comp, 3.766 bore, 3.75 stroke, 5.7 rods, intake Weiand 8000 EGR - gasket matched and smoothed, Edelbrock #1904 Quadrajet 795 cfm, 1 5/8 headers & 3" single exhaust, deck cl -.002", head gasket (4.065 round bore, .041 thick), 84 Trans Am, Turbo 700R4, 4.10 gears, 28" tires, ? weight (heavy), DAILY DRIVER. A total of .500 max valve lift is all I need, and I have both 1.52 and 1.6 rockers to use. This camshaft was: http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=23791
Grumpy knows this cam.
CraneCams CompuCam 2050 Hydraulic FT
Advertised Duration 272 int./284 exh. 112° LSA / 107° ICL
1800 – 5600 rpm 6200 redline .454/.480 (1.5) .484/.512 (1.6) .484/.486 (1.6/1.52)
272/284 216/228

Seat-to-seat timing (Wallace)
IVO is 29.0 ° BTDC ( - indicates ATDC)
IVC is 63.0 ° ABDC
EVO is 79.0 ° BBDC
EVC is 25.0 ° ATDC ( - indicates BTDC)
Overlap is 54 °

Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator
(Use seat to seat specs for Intake spec for best results)
Number of Cylinders : 8
Bore in Inches : 3.766
Stroke in Inches : 3.75
Rod Length in Inches : 5.7
Static Compression Ratio : 10 (to 1)
Inlet Valve Closes ABDC : 64 º
Boost Pressure in PSI : 0
Target Altitude : 177 (Feet)

Static compression ratio of 10:1.
Effective stroke is 2.98 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.12:1.
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 162.07 PSI.

On the next cam, I might like to use a less intense lobe with 1.6 rockers for longevity.

Heads
World Products 305 Torquer 58cc #4265
175.2 (now) cc intake / 65+ cc exhaust / 58 cc chambers
The intake ports “choke” point now measures .95 x 1.90, which equals 1.805 sq in. and would
allow 5903 rpm for the 334. (Wallace calculator)
Stainless 2.02/1.6 valves stock length undercut stems
Edelbrock Intakes & Alex's Exhausts @30° back cut on INtakes
Fully ported to FelPro 1256 gasket, throats equalized & bowls blended
EXH ports opened to "D" port to match SLP headers
Combustion chambers ground out to edge of head gasket to unshroud the
valves and smoothed
Elgin 9914XK springs (400#/in) set to 1.755 seat = 123# .485 IN lift = 317# (1.270)

from Graham Hansen – High-Performance Chevy Small Block Cylinder Heads:
The ported S/R flows 30+ cfm over the stock Vortec head on the EXH
side (a little down on the INT side), which means that you might be able to get
away with a mild dual pattern or even a single pattern cam with exhaust flow
numbers of this kind. This is the reason I’m using 1.52 rockers on Exhausts.
Also, the valve lifts end up the same (.485”) for both Intake & Exhaust.

72 cc S/R Torquer 2.02/1.6 170cc 1.81 sq in on 4” bore fixture

I've given a cam & lifter set the best chance of survival in this engine. Why does this have to be so difficult?
From the movie AIRPLANE, "I picked a bad week to quit drinking".

Grumpy · Jan 13, 2016

FIRST I'D SAY THANKS FOR POSTING REALLY GOOD PICTURES DOCUMENTING THE TEAR DOWN AND FORENSIC EVALUATION!

thats very much appreciated and helps everyone reading this thread get a good grasp on what your dealing with, and yes I think the magnets helped limit further damage.

can you cut open and show what that larger magnet trapped on the oil filter ??

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com...=10380&p=42904&hilit=filter+inspection#p42904

proper magnets trap metallic debris
SmCo Samarium Cobalt Disc Magnets
http://www.magnet4less.com/

http://www.magnet4sale.com/samarium-cobalt-discs/

if you don,t think a proper magnet can trap/hold and prevent metallic debris from getting into the oil pump and bearings , look at this picture of an oil pan magnet I found posted

Samarium Cobalt MAGNETS HELP
http://www.magnet4sale.com/smco-disk-magnet-dia-1x1-4-samarium-cobalt-magnets-608-f-temperature/

its basically a heavy duty can opener , or an oil filter cutter designed to make it easy to internally inspect oil filters, by allowing you to remove the filter element , from inside the surrounding (CAN) for close visual inspection. if you've got more than a tiny bit of metallic crud in the filter theres a good chance some is embedded in bearings or partly clogging oil passages
If you don,t have one, and have not used one, your unlikely to see, or appreciate the benefits,close inspection can and does frequently give you prior evidence of impending or at least gradually occurring wear and with practice you can make an excellent guess as to the parts and condition of those components.
if your finding " tons of small metal pieces in engine" its coming from some place that WEARING EXCESSIVELY, more than likely the cam and lifters and circulating in the oil, which will rapidly destroy the bearings, your only logical course of action is to disassemble and inspect then correct the issue by replacing the defective components and now compromised bearing surfaces,yes you can ignore this but the longer you run it the worse the damage and the more expensive it will be to rebuild it.

my shop oil collection drain can looks a bit like this one but holds 20 gallons
http://www.homedepot.com/s/paint+filter?NCNI-5
almost any auto paint store and most hardware stores sell these disposable throw away paint strainer filters , that cost about 20-35 cents each, or a bit less in bulk packs, honestly I don,t see why most guys don,t invest the dollar it takes for a magnet and a couple filters

heres a helpful diagnostic tool,(the oil filter cutter pictured below) and yes I still cut open the oil filters and inspect the filter element on my cars oil filter [/color]

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=2919&p=26455&hilit=filter+inspection#p26455

Indycars · Jan 13, 2016

Loves302Chevy said:
Hopefully, that magnet, the 57# pull ring magnet stuck to the end of the oil filter, and the filter itself trapped the debris.

Do you have a oil filter cutter? They don't cost that much.

Loves302Chevy said:
The cam bearings look great and my main & rod bearings are these:
King Silicon Alecular Bearings:

Is this something new on the market?

Very nice write up, lots of good details!

87vette81big · Jan 13, 2016

Your going to need to tear this Stroker 305/ 334 Engine down Loves 302.
The flame hardened cast iron lobes are like millions of diamond razor blades when a camshaft lobe fails.
The King Accular bearings are too hard and don't trap debis like Clevite P series Tri metal bearings do or Vandervell Lead Indium bearings do.
The ability to trap minor debris in the bearing overlay is desirable on the street and most drag racing.

An Isky Meg 260-265 270 cam will meet your needs. No more required .

87vette81big · Jan 13, 2016

Your valve spring rates are a bit high for my liking on the street flat tappet hydraulic .
SBC Valves 2.02 & 1.60 are pretty small and light.
105-110 seat pressures adaquate with 275 peak open pressures with max valve lift used.
The inferior lifters couldn't take it.

87vette81big · Jan 13, 2016

I re read. you have magnets.
Maybe .
No Guarantees right now.

87vette81big · Jan 13, 2016

When A Roller camshaft fails its actually worse.
The entire inside of the engine looks like a Dynamite shotgun blast went off.
Just 1 needle bearing will destroy all.

Flat Tappet cam fails you still have an engine that can be repaired.

Loves302Chevy · Jan 13, 2016

Grumpy said:
can you cut open and show what that larger magnet trapped on the oil filter ??

Yes. I'll cut open both filters and post the photos. I'll pop holes in the ends so they can drain. I made an oil filter cutter last week, similar to this:

And I will be ordering some Samarium Cobalt Magnets. There is a 2 x 1/2 x 1/2 bar with a 31 lb pull. I think I will stick it to the OUTSIDE of the oil pan. If I put the magnets INSIDE the pan, then when the oil is drained, you wouldn't know if there is any magnetic debris in the oil, nor could you remove it. I would rather put them somewhere that is removable (drain plug, oil filter). That way, any debris can be inspected and thrown away. But if there is magnetic debris, you already have BIGGER problems.

When the engine failed the 1st time, it ate a few cam lobes. All that grit went through the engine and screwed up EVERYTHING. I just spent 2 years resurrecting it (crank ground, rods resized, bores dingle-ball honed, saved the pistons, heads redone, etc). Ultimately, RHS's huge valve seals caused the valve retainer to hit the seal at max lift - but MY FAULT for not measuring. At the time, I thought, "They are Racers Head Service. They should know better than me." So I bolted them on.
Now that I think about it, I did not receive the heads I ordered. I wanted WP Dart S/R 305 heads with the intake ports gasket matched, comes with 1.94/1.5 valves, and I told them what valve lift I had. I did not find out until 2 years ago when I finally took this engine apart that the heads had 2.02/1.6 valves. Somebody screwed up and I probably received a set of heads that were destined for a 305 class racer. They probably would be running a "stock" cam, and these heads would have worked fine for them. But not with my increased valve lift, .484/.512. I originally ordered this kit from Fast Times Automotive. I placed the order with Dennis and he knew what I wanted and gave me a ballpark idea of the total price. A few weeks later when I called to check, Dennis no longer worked there. Dennis probably did not bill this order out, the next person did. And they obviously did not understand the order. I got billed for the kit, with all its INCLUDED parts, and was also billed for those parts again individually. So the bill came in DOUBLE what I expected. After 7+ months of trying to explain it to them and the credit card company, I had to give up. Have you ever tried to explain engine parts to a woman (at Citibank)? If it was hair or nails or makeup, they would understand.
So I already started out with a very expensive engine. That is why I want to get this thing running again INEXPENSIVELY. And why I triple-checked everything. I just want to get the miles out of it for the money I put into it.

It turns out that Fast Times Automotive was one of those businesses that would open, stay open for about a year, then close abruptly and reopen under a new name. Then do it again, and again.

Indycars said:
Is this something new on the market?

I don't know if these bearings are something new Rick, but I got a SUPER deal on them from Competition Products: http://www.competitionproducts.com/default.asp Check out their SPECIALS and BROOM SHEET. You can find some GREAT deals.
I needed 10 under rod bearings with the rod's bore resized .002" larger than stock. They had them - and only $17.00
The mains were $20.00 and I got the cam bearings for $9.00. I just pulled up their site and they have Howard's Max Z.P.M. Camshaft Break-In Lube & Oil Change Additive case of 24 for $134.87, which comes out to $5.63 per bottle.

87vette81big said:
Your valve spring rates are a bit high for my liking on the street flat tappet hydraulic .
SBC Valves 2.02 & 1.60 are pretty small and light.
105-110 seat pressures adaquate with 275 peak open pressures with max valve lift used.
The inferior lifters couldn't take it.

Those pressures were going to be for the RUNNING springs. The reduced pressure break-in springs are still in the heads:
Camshaft broken in with SSI VS-380 springs (269#/in)
At 1.715, approx. 75# on seat, 204# valve open
KMotion retainers and no valve seals to ensure oiling of the valve guides.
I can change the locks to get more installed height and lower the pressures for the running springs. That is if I'm still going to use those springs with the new cam. I had them set for exactly what Crane recommended. However, the book recommends: 114# seat / 318# open (.460) and the paper cam card says #99848 springs 105# seat, 280# open with .460 lift.

87vette81big said:
When A Roller camshaft fails its actually worse.
The entire inside of the engine looks like a Dynamite shotgun blast went off.
Just 1 needle bearing will destroy all.

Flat Tappet cam fails you still have an engine that can be repaired.

EXACTLY WHY I LIKE A FLAT TAPPET. Not that rollers don't have their place, but not needed for this application.

87vette81big · Jan 13, 2016

Engine bearings are a very subjective matter topic .
No one has ever done a complete test of different engine bearings in a single engine on a water brake dyno.
Teardown each time and replace with other manufacters bearings.
If published it likely would start an online war.
I am going.by what has worked for me.
Clevite P series and Vandervell.
After teardown for a valvejob and new rings the bearings still.looked like new in my Dinasour Pontiac V8 engines.
Crankshaft main and rod journals still shined like a mirror when I recieved back from my machine shop.

When we were dirt track racing SBC we used Clevite H bearings.
They worked. The crank always took a beating from dirt srcatches.
Witnessed when it was time to rebuild.
K& N air cleaner used. Wix racing oil filters. Bypass valve stock GM.
Racing oil changed after every race.
K& N cleaned after every race.
Special Dirt track oil pan left hand roundy round oil pan used.
60-80 psi hot oil pressure racing always.

87vette81big · Jan 13, 2016

Also you have no intentions to race heavily.
Normal street driving daily.
Spirited WOT driving sometimes.
Higher spring seat loads and Open pressures not really needed. Cam was not that agressive.
Excess spring pressures give a chance for earlier failures .
I know you were using stock GM Tbi style single coil valvesprings during break in.

87vette81big · Jan 13, 2016

Building engines and obtaining the right parts needed can be tough.
Get too many involved it becomes a Cluster Fick.
There comes a time when you must Lead.
Your engine. Your Car. Your blood sweat and tears being shed. Not others.
You discover that can and will Lead.

Loves302Chevy · Jan 13, 2016

I think my !st set of bearings were Clevite H's.
You know exactly what I'm trying to do with this engine and car.

87vette81big said:
Building engines and obtaining the right parts needed can be tough.
Get too many involved it becomes a Cluster Fick.
There comes a time when you must Lead.
Your engine. Your Car. Your blood sweat and tears being shed. Not others.
You discover that can and will Lead.

So true. It's like being a conductor of an orchestra. You try to assemble all these different parts and pieces from different
sources and try to get them to make beautiful music together - like a symphony. It only takes 1 player out of tune to ruin the whole thing.
I'm glad someone understands what I'm doing. I find that when I lead, that most can't follow me anyway. So thanks for that.

Loves302Chevy · Jan 13, 2016

Yes, I know, ISKY.
While I was on the Competition Products site, I found this: http://www.competitionproducts.com/...4_224-050-466_466-114-LC/productinfo/E1179PM/ I have many more cams too look at.
This is as big as I ever would want to go (I'm trying to avoid the "bigger is better" syndrome), and I do have a Grand National converter in the car. Unsure of the exact stall speed, but it should be (from internet comments: 2050 stock, 2200 stock, 2200-2400 from factory). But these are turbo cars, so I would think they might stall lower in my car.
I'm just trying to get the most out of the combination of parts I assembled.
This cam with all 1.6 rockers would give me a .497" valve lift, which would work well with my heads.
This last cam gave 16" of vacuum at idle. (216/228 at .050"). It was a computer compatible emissions legal cam. And I do have power brakes. The car will not be computer-controlled anymore.
??? Too big for a spirited daily driver?

87vette81big · Jan 13, 2016

I don't usually say this because I Love Racing and Super Street Performance.
But 100 % reliability is TOP PRIORITY .
Ultimate performance is a secondary issue.
You can't afford anymore failures .

I will click.on and check your Link.

Isky Cams do more with less.
A soft cam by them won't dissapoint you.

87vette81big · Jan 13, 2016

I see why the Elgin camshaft is Enticing.
$109 with lifters.

Not likely premium lifters supplied.
Its my Gut Feeling thoughts Love 302.

Isky costs more yes.
Somewhere around $225-250 Isky Hydro Flat Tappet Cam & Premium ISKY MADE IN USA LIFTERS.

Duration slight Hot I think.
To verify I need ti run an engine simulator .Can't do right now from my phone.
214 -218 -220 duration I think best fit for You. Single pattern . 108 -112 LCA. .470-.480 lift with 1.5 rockers.
Your higher ratio rockers will get more net lift at the valvestem.

87vette81big · Jan 13, 2016

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Isky Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam and Lifter Kits CL201271

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Cam and Lifters, Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Advertised Duration 270/270, Lift .465/.465, Chevy, Small Block, Kit

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Isky Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam and Lifter Kits

Part Type: Camshaft Kits
Application: Find out if this fits your application

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Brand: Isky Racing Cams

Manufacturer's Part Number: CL201271

Part Type: Camshaft Kits

Product Line: Isky Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam and Lifter Kits

Summit Racing Part Number: ISK-CL201271

Cam Style: Hydraulic flat tappet

Basic Operating RPM Range: 2,000-6,200

Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift: 221

Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift: 221

Duration at 050 inch Lift: 221 int./221 exh.

Advertised Intake Duration: 270

Advertised Exhaust Duration: 270

Advertised Duration: 270 int./270 exh.

Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.465 in.

Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.465 in.

Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.465 int./0.465 exh.

Lobe Separation (degrees): 108

Computer-Controlled Compatible: No

Lifters Included: Yes

Lifter Style: Hydraulic flat tappet

Valve Springs Included: No

Retainers Included: No

Locks Included: No

Valve Stem Seals Included: No

Timing Chain and Gears Included: No

Assembly Lubricant Included: Yes

Pushrods Included: No

Rocker Arms Included: No

Gaskets Included: No

Valve Springs Required: Yes

Quantity: Sold as a kit.

In-Store Pickup: Choose In-store pick-up (OH, GA, NV) on our web site.

These hydraulic flat tappet cam and lifter kits from Isky are designed for performance-minded car owners who want to use their everyday cars for the street and drags. The cams produce more power and rpm in road-driven cars, while giving you the power and torque needed to get off the line quickly at the strip. Made from the finest high-quality proferal cast iron billets, these hydraulic flat tappet cams are flame-hardened, super-finished, and Parko Lubrite coated for a long life.

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COMP Cams 159 - COMP Cams Engine Break-In Oil Additive
Motor Oil Additive, ZDDP, Engine Break-In, 12 oz., Each

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Lucas Oil 10063-1 - Lucas Engine Break-In Oil Additive
Motor Oil Additive, ZDDP, Engine Break-In, 16 oz., Each

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Quality engine parts don't come in plain white boxes!

Can I use new lifters on a just broken in camshaft - only 2.5 hours run time on engine test stand?

It will never work. Guaranteed failure.

You might get lucky.

In your case, no problem, go for it. As long you do a proper break-in with the correct moly paste.

"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.

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