TBucket 200-4R Transmission Project

[Indycars]

Make sure that one is fully seated. Mine popped off the minute I put it in reverse...

Well that's got to be a pain in the butt ! I can only image what you said!

Since I have it back apart again (setting center section end ply) enough to
see that snap ring, I went ahead and checked it again. Made sure it has some
drag as I try to spin it in the groove. Looks fully seated in the groove.

 

[Indycars]

I check the Center Section End Play and got .012" after three different
selective washers were used. Then I questioned myself if I had installed a thrust
bearing, so again I disassemble it to check and the bearing was there. Put it back
together and checked in play and now I have .030". I put in the THICKEST selective
washer and now I can only get it down to .025", at the same time the selective
washer is .007" thicker. I must of had something that was not completely together.

The ATSG manual calls for .015" - .025", the DVD says 020" - .050", but CKP wants
it to be .006" - .008". But above all else, it must be greater than the rear section
end play. Mine rear section end play is .006". So I was shooting for about .010".

So where do I got from here? I've checked for arbor shims that could go under one
of the thrust bearings and can only get close on the OD, would still have to machine
the ID larger. Shim Stock Plate would be to expensive at roughly $40 plus machine work.

Maybe I'm over thinking this for my application? Any opinions or observation anyone?





I can't take the photo and hold both screw driver and caliper at the same time.
Normally I would be pressing down on the Direct Clutch Drum in the photo above.
Then I would press up on the drum from the pan side and take a 2nd measurement.
Subtract to the two to get my end play.

 

[grumpyvette]

wow! your doing such a good and well thought thru job, and are so darn impressive in this build, Im thinking YOU should make some money building my next transmission, because its rather obvious YOU would be doing a better job than I can in that area (I do ok on muncies but Ive never rebuilt a 200r4, or 4l80E )
one more reason YOU and a couple other guys on the site need to move to FLORIDA, in the far west reaches of palm beach, in my neighborhood

http://web.archive.org/web/20070128173316/http://members.aol.com/powerrslid/thm2004r.html

 

[Indycars]

If I did a really nice job on your trans, would there be enough money
for me to move to West Palm Beach??? :lol:

Seriously.....you sure make it tempting, I should be retiring in a few years!!!

 

[87vette81big]

You should stick to CK PERFORMANCE UNIT ENDPLAY GUIDELINES RICK.
I would shoot for .006.
I am going to have to review photos to undetstand rear output shaft endplay.
I know 700R4 & 4L60E inside out.
I set total unit endplay to .006 in my 700R4.
Full torrington needle bearing thrust washers.
Makes for a super strong & long lasting geartrain setup.
Loose sets up. for a ticking time bomb to explode sometime with big torque 550 ft/lbs + and high rpms over 6 k.

 

[87vette81big]

Original GM Service pinion depth shims are super strong & hardened.
12-Bolt Eaton Chevelle Camaro.
Hard to find now NOS.
HAVE SOME GM NOS LEFT. USE FOR SUPER HIGH HP RACE REAR BUILDS ONLY.
Cheap shims split in 2 in high. Hp 1400 cars.
Maybe fit under the torringtin needle bearing correct.
Post ID &OD & THICKNESS NEEDED.
Building the.1948 Chevy Truck rear today.

BR
?

 

[Indycars]

You should stick to CK PERFORMANCE UNIT ENDPLAY GUIDELINES RICK.
I would shoot for .006.
I don't feel comfortable trying to cut it that close. The center must be greater than the rear section end play for one thing or it binds up. Also the repeatability of my measurements vary by .004" - .006". Since I have .006" for rear EP, then I hate to go closer than .010" - .012" for the center EP.

I am going to have to review photos to undetstand rear output shaft endplay.
I know 700R4 & 4L60E inside out.
I set total unit endplay to .006 in my 700R4.
Full torrington needle bearing thrust washers.
Makes for a super strong & long lasting geartrain setup.
Loose sets up. for a ticking time bomb to explode sometime with big torque 550 ft/lbs + and high rpms over 6 k.

I would fully agree if my car weighed 3600 lbs, but since I only weigh 1800 lbs, I cannot load the trans to the same extent. It's not going to be raced, it's a street rod. No doubt I'm going to nail it hard when I get the chance, but not every run is going to be maximum output. On the other hand I won't take a chance if in my mind it will be a compromise. The summer is slipping away and I don't want to be splitting hairs when it's not necessary.

I tried to call Chris at CKP, but like I expected they were not answering the phone today. So guess I will work on something else and call him Monday to see what he would do.

Original GM Service pinion depth shims are super strong & hardened.
Post ID &OD & THICKNESS NEEDED.

ID = 2.155 .....Close to 5/32 / .1563
OD = 2.880 ... Close to 2 7/8 or 2.875
Thickness = .010" to .015"

Funny, you reminder me I had some shims for the rear end carrier that I used in my 64 Nova over
40 years ago when I installed a 4.56 rear end gears. They have an OD that would work, but they start at .066" thickness.

Thanks for the input Brian. To often I get wrapped up in my own thoughts and I can't see the forest for the trees and I cannot get outside my box to see all the other options I have.

 

[Indycars]

Wish I would have bought these snap ring pliers at the beginning of this
project. The normal set of snap ring pliers I have are useless on these types
of snap rings. Getting them off I used screw drivers and pliers and just
about anything I could to get them off and it works. But when it comes
to putting a snap ring on while working down inside the transmission ......
Now That's Impossible Without The Snap Ring Tool.



This company makes too different sizes for the tips, I went with the
smallest one. Figured it would be more versatile.



Below is what I bought at Oklahoma Transmission Supply for $22. Man
I should of bought these a long time ago.



For the big snap rings that go into the case, there is no need to
worry. Those are easy with a screw driver and your hands.

Happy Father's Day !!!

 

[grumpyvette]

are you getting closer to actually installing the engine and drive train in that t-bucket?

 

[busterrm]

are you getting closer to actually installing the engine and drive train in that t-bucket?

If he is ready when I take another trek up there in first part of July, Grumpy I think we will be doing it then maybe. Not sure yet, we are also going to cc my set of heads for my build.

 

[87vette81big]

Rick,
I gave thought to your 200R4 today.
Blueprint clearances for the center support mainshaft input & output shaft endplay.
Your 200 R4 has a center support similar to the GM Tubo 400, Ford C6, & Chrysler 727 Torqueflite.
The Turbo 400 Center Support is retained by a 12- point 3/8 socket head fine thread bolt.
Accessable with the valvebody removed.
Does your 200R center support have the same retention method?
.
You are trying to measure input side center support geartrain endplay and getting inconsistent measurements with a digital caliper by the end projected rod..
No accuracy to make a definate cyonclusion.

Do you have a magnetic base dial indicator ??
Much more accurate endplay checks can be performed.
You might need to fabricate a steel plate to mount dial indicator.

Flip the trans case upside down. Inverted.
Needle bearing thrust washers will be seated flat by geartrain weight on top & gravity.
Use a screwdriver to wiggle upwards.

 

[87vette81big]

Your getting eronous endplay readings.
Nature of needle bearing thrust washers not being loaded even.
Load with gravity working for you.
Have a gut feeling your at .006-.010 right now.
Dial indicate check Rick.

BR

 

[Indycars]

Thanks Brian, appreciate your help!!!

I'm measuring the way the CKP books suggests, but I think you might have
something here. Any time you pry on something off the centerline, it wants
to cock sideways. I do have a dial indicator, I will try that tonight.

The retention of the center support sounds similar to what you describe
above. Photos below show my 200-4R .

 

[87vette81big]

Your 200R4 is safe to invert to 6 O'clock.
Use gravity & weight of geartrain to seat needle thrust bearings.

 

[Indycars]

With this setup I measure .018 - .020" of center section end play. Set it
to zero, then reach in with pliers and pull up and push down. Each time I
could hear the clunk as all the play went from one side to the other.

I also tried flipping the trans, but I would still have to pry alittle to get
the end play to shift before I could measure. Still get the same numbers.

 

[87vette81big]

Did you call Chris @ CK Performance today Rick?
What did he have to say.
I bought a few parts from him for my. 87 700R.
Billet steel 2-4anchor pin most notable & unique part from him.
He is smart & has lots of experience. Famous for 200R4 Builds he does for the Buick Grand National crowd.


To make a custom shim for your 200R4,
You need to start with a spring steel stock & machine to ID & OD in a lathe.
.050-.100 thick initial. Has wall support so it won't collapse in a good 3 jaw self centering lathe chuck.
Then after use a Brown & Sharp Surfacer with an Alnico magnetic chuck base with a quick release .
Surface grind .0005-.001 stock off at each pass.
Stop when desired thickness reached.
Workedvin machine shop @28-29 years old. Learned alot working there.

My friend Mopar Bob still works there. 22 years now & head machinist. Small specialty job machine shop.
What you need has to be hand made. Old School way. No CNC.
He is best I know at custom 1 off machining.

 

[Indycars]

Just got off the phone with Chris at CK Performance. Explained that I had
the largest Selective Washer #15 installed and my center section end
play was .018" to .020". He said I would be fine, so it's full speed ahead again.

Brian....you have had some great experience along the way! Makes you perfect
for this forum to pass on some of that great knowledge that the rest of us need.

Thanks again!!!

 

[87vette81big]

Just got off the phone with Chris at CK Performance. Explained that I had
the largest Selective Washer #15 installed and my center section end
play was .018" to .020". He said I would be fine, so it's full speed ahead again.

Brian....you have had some great experience along the way! Makes you perfect
for this forum to pass on some of that great knowledge that the rest of us need.

Thanks again!!!

Been told in past that I am best at solving One Off problems that perplex most.
Also been told to open my own shop.
Someday.
GetR Done Rick.

 

[Indycars]

Dual Feeding the direct clutch is considered mandatory in any
performance application.

The direct clutch housing and it’s clutch pack are used in third and fourth
gear as well as reverse. When applied in third and fourth gear, oil pressure
is only directed to the inner area of the direct clutch piston assembly. When
applied in reverse , oil pressure is directed to both areas of the piston.



The modification usually involved three steps:
1.) Remove middle ring on center support
2.) Plug hole in one bolt for the center support
3.) Enlarge hole in separator plate

Since I bought the shift kit from CK Performance, the kit included a separator
plate with all the changes needed, including the dual feed modification,
therefore I only need to perform steps 1 and 2.



Removing the ring is easy enough. To modify the bolt, I drilled it with a
7/32” drill bit (Close enough to the right size) and tapped it for a ¼-28
thread. Before I installed the screw with red loctite, I had to reduce the
size of the head so the socket would clear it and engage the bolt head.
Chucked it up in my drill and used a file to make it smaller.



Make sure you install the bolt in the correct hole in the case.

 

[Indycars]

I'm much further along today. I didn't anticipate having to do an air check
using the hole in the bolt that I had plugged. So I should have made the
mod, but left the screw out until after the air check for the reverse clutch.
Then install the screw with Loctite.

Since I have two transmissions, I just located another unmodified bolt and
put it in temporarily to perform the reverse clutch air check.