Building Up A Blown Olds Motor for an "A/GS Gasser"

The ACT clutch was back ordered, so cancelled it and looked around some more, ordered a McLeod dual disk setup. The photo shows a diaphragm setup but the description sez it is a Long style pressure plate...

mcl-6911-02_w.jpg


S_5106.jpg


This is all new to me, so hope I am heading in the right direction!

Later....
 
the LONG and BORG AND BECK style pressure plates both tend to have less problems in my experience that the diaphragm style pressure plates,
the diaphragm style tends to be a bit smoother as it grabs but thats mainly because they tend to slip more and that friction of the disc sliding across the pressure plate before it clamps to the flywheel,builds up heat that tends to eventually cook the disc material, but that smoothness in clamping comes at a cost, most don,t hold up or clamp on the disc nearly as well. the LONG and BORG AND BECK style pressure plates tend to be a bit more grabby, in that they are more likely to be either in or out of engagement rather than slipping especially if you have one built to a 3600 lb clamp load level.
most guys have little problem or zero problems learning the slightly different driving style, and most never go back to the slippy diaphragm style pressure plates,yes I well remember having several custom made 3600 lb borg & beck and long style pressure plates, and steel 36lb -40 lb billet steel, flywheels, I used those for so many years, in so many of my cars, I swear I thought my friends corvette with a stock pressure plate was defective, the first time I drove it, it felt like the springs must have lost tension in the pressure plate were defective.
but I can,t remember having any issues with clutches burning discs prematurely once I swapped.
 
I have experience with manual trans clutches for street & strip use.
Ford Long style clutches are best for race use.
The arms add centrifical assist at high RPMs for more lbs/per square inch holding pressure. You typically use anywhere from a 1400lb to 2800lb holding pressure depending upon vehicle weight, rear gearing, HP & torque level, and choice of friction material.

Ram & McCleod make the best racing clutches for street & strip use.

Centerforce dual friction is a very good up to 700 HP & matching torque with a car of 3,200lbs or less.
The diagphram pressure plate hat has weights attached to allow centrifugal high rpm assist holding power.
I have spun GM 11 inch Centerforce daul frictions to well over 8,000 RPM's.
Slight amount of slip like Grumpy mentions so it does not chatter on the street.
But if you drive your car right & launch it right, it will not slip when you dump the clutch at 4,000+.
Launch hard & your gone,
If you slip the clutch too much with a dual friction trying to get more traction.......you will smoke it fast.
Designed to dump the clutch fast & foot to floor on gas & never lift full bore 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 powershifts.

Your likely well past the 800ft/lb torque level with your built & blown Olds 425 engine.
Mcleod dual friction I have very good reviews of.
A few guys have exploded them above 7,000 RPM's. May have been installation & driver errors.
I would consider using a full sintered iron disc or 4 puck bronze clutch disc if your racing hard with a long style pressure plate cover.
No sprung center hub.
When you dump the clutch at 5,000 RPM's with slicks out back with 4.88 to 5.86 gears out back, the front end of your car will pointed 4 feet off the ground toward the sky & thats all you will see till it settles down the suspension & grabbing second gear.
Forget about street manners, race clutch assembly, it wont fail anytime soon & will last a long time.

I have a 1965 Olds 425 4-barrel "A" engine I am rebuilding 360 HP & 470ft/lbs stock. Big GM Olds 98 mine came from, 60,000 miles on it when I bought it this past June 2012.
Warmed over stock rebuild with Isky Cam.
Fun reading your Olds 425 buildup.

Its a racecar you have on the street too.
Always a compromise.

Brian R.
 
The clutch arrived, it is a diaphragm type, like the photo shows. Called them, the data sheet they posted is incorrect when it said a "Long Style" pressure plate. They told me I could run the RXT ceramic style disks also, the rest of the components are the same, and the ceramic disks are good to 1,000+ hp they claim!

Ordered a pair of the ceramic disks to use at the drag strip, will run the organic ones on the street for now. They said it is an "easy swap", yeah, right, easy for them maybe???

Photo here if you're interested:
http://www.mcleodracing.com/images_products/5494.jpg
 
About 30 years ago I was at our local rural post office getting my mail when a '67 Olds Delta 88 4 dr hardtop pulled up, smoking exhaust like a bad diesel, with Canadian plates. As the driver got out I commented on the car and that it probably had the 425 motor in it. The owner was impressed that I new the Olds cars and said it was for sale. He had just moved over from Canada and his wife decided she wanted a smaller car to drive around Maui. I said it looks like the motor is in bad condition, he said "make me an offer!"

I dug in my pocket and had $50, he said he'd take that! We did the paper work, I drove him home and took the Delta to my house. Did a compression check, it was solid on all eight. Pulled the valve covers off, the plastic oil seals had broken up, plugged the oil return holes, the oil was backing up in the valve covers and being sucked down the intake valve stems! New seals and it ran great for many years! It was our beach cruiser, put the kids, their buddies in the back seat, ice chest and beach gear in the trunk, surfboards on top, and off to the beach.

When the kids went off to college, the rust in the body was really getting bad, so parted it out, keeping the motor, th400 (switch pitch TC!) and rear end. Also other parts like the tilt/telescope steering column, steering box, radio (8 track), and sold off a lot of those parts.

When the 55 chevy 4dr fell into my lap, I decided to make an old style gasser out of it. I had helped one of my buddies convert his '59 F100 to a mustang 2 front suspension, and had the front axle from that, so whacked off the front of the chevy and went from there.

Always wanted a blown Olds, I also have a '57 motor, thought about converting that to a blower, but harder to get parts for that. So went with the 425, as I like the forged crank, the 7" rods, and the 4.155" x 3.975" (30 overbore) bore and stroke configuration. Also had a buddy who is a retired top fuel techie, who volunteered to port a pair of Edelbrock RPM Performer heads, he did a great job on that. With the 6/71 and a pair of 650's and 1:1 pulleys, Don Hampton said I should see 5 lbs boost. With those ported heads, the flow is so good I only see a max of 4 lbs. With the change to the 38/34 pulleys I am now seeing 7 lbs boost.

On the street driving it I never see full boost, it is just too much for the street tires, they spin, so most of the time driving it around it is around 15 inches of vacuum, running down as low as 5", and as high as 25" (going downhill on the highway at 3000 rpm with the throttle closed), so am thinking I will leave the 7 lb pulleys on and just drive it with 92 pump gas and stay out of the boost. With the 8:1 forged JE pistons and proper timing/advance curve, I should be ok.

If I want to get adventurous, I have 5 gallons of 117 octane race fuel stashed away, I'm thinking a blend of 1:5 with pump gas should allow the full 7 lbs boost with no preignition. That's what I used at the track when I burnt up the CenterForce clutch, and it seemed to like that combo. I was running 36 deg full advance at 3000, on a 20 deg curve, with 10 deg vacuum advance at idle, and no boost retard, and it seemed just fine! It's still running pretty rich though, want to try to take some of that out during cruise/vacuum running on the street, but make it go rich when coming up on boost.

A challenge.
Willy
 
mathd said:
so you went with a mcload clutch? looks like a much better clutch.

Yup, the McLeod RST duel disk setup, supposed to be good to 800 ft lbs.
Then with the RXT ceramic clutch disks in that setup instead of the organic full face disks, it is supposed to be good to 1,000 ft lbs.

We shall see....
Willy
 
want to make it leaner on cruise and rich on boost? just put a powervalve(your"15inch vacuum and 14inch boost so 0.0-1.0 is between both value) in both primary only and size primary jet down.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-125-10/overview/
Cruise will lean and when it will richen under boost.
Am not saying its the way to go but if it was mine, it will be what id do(well mine is setup that way and it work fine).
i know i said mine was a 0.0 but i think my memory dont serve me well, probably a 1.0 since 0.0 does not seem to exist, i know it was real low.
Or sizing primary jet smaller? that will also lean a little the WOT/boost.
mine cruise at around 12:1 and 10.5:1 on boost.
 
Originally there were 6.5 PV's in there, it was dumping lots of fuel, I downsized to 4.5's in the primaries and plugged the secondaries as I had those on hand. Still way rich. The idle screws are at 1/4 to 1/2 and still rich there too, so need to change the idle fuel restrictors and lean that out. Ideal idle richness should be at 2 to 3 turns out, so think the strong idle vacuum signal I have (15 to 17") is pulling too much fuel through the idle fuel restrictors, and they need to be downsized.

Although this article from Chevy High Performance is not blower ralated, I think it is still a pertinent article on how the idle fuel circuits affect the overall performance and fuel economy when cruising on the street. I found it posted at Innovate's site.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/reso ... ileage.php

There are other articles posted at Innovate that are worth reading:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources.php
 
my idle are 3/4 turn out on the wideband o2 read about 14:1(1.00 lambda) a/f ratio @ idle.
sounds strange your running soo rich at idle, float overflow(re-checked fuel level?) blown powervalve.?
My carburator do not have changeable idle feed restrictor so there i dont know about this part.. mine are fixed.
On mine i had to open my secondary butterfly(secondary speed screw) a little more at idle. because my primary butterfly where opened too much (to keep a 800 idle rpm)uncovering the primary idle transfert slot completly.. rendering the idle screw useless..(i have idle fuel screw on the primary only)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8ROjrGA ... 0&index=49
Have to set the idle mixture before to go too far with main jetting(powervalve, main jets) because your idle mixture will affect the rest of the circuit..
On my holley instruction the default idle fuel screw is 1 1/2 turn out.

I run about that 16-17 inch vacuum at idle(i know it do not matter since each engine have different needs.. just having some talk :) )
 
I'm reading about 8 or 9 AFR on my Innovate. But it stopped giving me readings, not sure why. The O2 sensor is pretty new, but it is pretty black looking with soot from the motor running so rich. Goes thru the warm up procedure but then never starts giving a reading like it did. Not sure if those can be cleaned or not, it doesn't look that bad, just sooty like the spark plugs are. A new sensor is $80 plus frgt.
 
thats some bad luck ,everything let go on you :(
darn thats really rich you could almost run ethanol at that ratio your probably close to fouling the sparkplug lol
That suck about the sensor that let go so fast. are you sure its connected correctly (if you dont have the dual unit like me only one of the 2 connector work) and no one has messed with the settings(maby its trying to read the o2 from the obd2 connector)?
I know you have to power the sensor to run the car otherwise sensor damage can occure, maby its just too much soot i dont really know how the internal of the sensor works.
Maby a faulty cable, id try contacting them and see what they say.
I think thats strange since there is no error code.
 
Innovate thinks maybe faulty cable as I think it is not really getting hot. Will check that out.

I have questions in my own mind about why that clutch failed. There may have been expansion problems causing some contact with the bearing at high rpm. I did not give it up very much time to get a good break in. This new clutch is advertised as good to 1000 foot pounds. It has 50% More contact area then the last one. I measured the surfaces carefully, it is 9 5/8 inches diameter compared to 11. Measuring the actual contact area comes out 48% more. I want to try this one with proper break-in and making sure good free play at the throw out bearing. I want to give it a try and see how well I can get it to work. If I feel like there is any problem, I will switch to the full face Organic disks.

Merry Christmas to all,
Willy
 
yes,you'll want to verify the throw out bearing rides free of and back off the pressure plates spring loaded fingers,
(LIGHT GREEN AREA) when the clutch petals not being manually depressed, Ive always tried for about a 1/8" clearance,between the throw-out bearing and pressure plate fingers when the clutch petals not being touched, but then thats just experience, I gained doing the clutch installs , not some desire to follow some printed instructions
CLUTCHFORK1a.jpg

clutch_diagrama.gif

img]http://www.grumpysperformance.com/clutch45.JPG[/img]
clutch46.JPG


clutch47.jpg

clutch48.jpg

P3080051.JPG

its not all that rare for the WRONG throw out bearing to be installed or the clutch linkage adjustment or clearances to be wrong if not carefully checked

other wise its going to result in much less clamping pressure and early clutch failure similar to riding around all day with your foot partly loading the clutch petal and causing the throw out bearing to constantly apply pressure on the pressure plate release springs, obviously if the throw-out bearing can,t fully dis-engage from the clutch pressure plate it prevents the pressure plate from reaching anything near full clamp loads and would have quickly resulted in a fried clutch


OBVIOUSLY theres a great many different applications and clutch and throw out bearing designs, but common sense should tell you the throw out bearing should be free of contact with the pressure plate m and recessed back away from the pressure plate on the transmissions collar held back in th clutch fork, when the clutch petal is not being manually depressed

http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/clutches_etc.htm

http://www.stangtv.com/news/video-comp- ... clearance/

http://www.ramclutches.com/Instructions ... 0Setup.htm

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=447&p=840#p840
 
McLeod suggested a 1/4" clearance from the bearing to the clutch fingers.
I don't think I had that much. Will try to get that much when I set this one up.
My feeling is that it would give me way too much pedal before activating the clutch!
Guess I'll find out!
 
Ive always tried for about a 1/8" clearance , but then thats just experience, I gained doing the clutch installs , not some desire to follow some printed instructions

CLUTCHFORK1a.jpg
 
i was thinking about my car and i remember something about excesivly rich idle. i remember mine also had a extremly rich idle and when i put a PVC valve to the valve cover my idle mixture screw got back in the range. do you run a PCV valve?
 
mathd said:
i was thinking about my car and i remember something about excessively rich idle. i remember mine also had a extremely rich idle and when i put a PVC valve to the valve cover my idle mixture screw got back in the range. do you run a PCV valve?

yes Ive always found adding a PVC valve on one valve cover and one or two breathers on the opposite side valve cover tends to help reduce engine oil leaks and blow bye
 
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