TBucket Engine Project (Dart SHP)

[grumpyvette]

I generally screw in a plug to is seated depth,with the plug threads having a bit of wax on the threads to prevent the nail polish from penetrating up the threads, I then coat any exposed threads in the combustion chamber with orange nail polish, let it dry, remove the plug and dremel the exposed orange threads in the combustion chamber smooth, so they don,t provide a area for carbon to accumulate and sharp edges to instigate detonation when they get really hot.

Id verify the thread pitch on the tool, and use a dial caliper to measure

to make sure its the same as the heads and spark plug, my thread chaser tool looks just like that, and screws in with moderate hand effort

sanding flap wheel 80 -120 grit

http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Tools/Pages ... x?pid=4000

 

[Indycars]

I generally screw in a plug to is seated depth,with the plug threads having a bit of wax on the threads to prevent the nail polish from penetrating up the threads, I then coat any exposed threads in the combustion chamber with orange nail polish, let it dry, remove the plug and dremel the exposed orange threads in the combustion chamber smooth, so they don,t provide a area for carbon to accumulate and sharp edges to instigate detonation when they get really hot.
Very nice idea !!!


Id verify the thread pitch on the tool, and use a dial caliper to measure to make sure its the same
as the heads and spark plug, my thread chaser tool looks just like that, and screws in with moderate
hand effort.
I verified both a plug and thread chaser in some factory cast iron heads, they both
work fine there. I also used my digital calipers and the thread pitch 1.25mm. [ 10mm / 8 threads = 1.25 ]

I don't see anymore options, but to go ahead with a wrench to apply a little more torque. If it's doesn't work,
then I will have to have thread inserts installed. I really don't like the idea of this coming up every time I change
spark plugs.

 

[Indycars]

After a couple hours with the thread chaser, I can spin the plugs in by hand. If I run a
plug in all the way, then back a 1/2 turn, then I can wiggle the plug a little bit. Seems to
be what I would expect now.

Finally I can get to my original plans for this weekend, to CC the chambers !

 

[Indycars]

Finally got to actually measuring the combustion chamber volume. I changed the fluid I used from
diesel fuel to alcohol with red food coloring. The diesel fuel has Paraffin Wax that seemed to clogging
the tip of the burett. As you can see below just how small the orifice is where the fluid passes in the
burett.

Does this seem like the normal variation in chamber volumes I should expect from a set of Brodix IK200 heads ???

 

[grumpyvette]

yes that variation in chamber size on most heads is not un-common (not ideal but not-un-common) , if your sure the glass or lexan is not allowing some of the measuring liquid to seep out of the combustion chamber, under the glass or lexan , or the sealant between the glass is not being displaced into the combustion chamber, thus giving you a false volume.
(from the picture it looks like you've got some sealant squeezed into the combustion chambers (VERY EASY TO DO)
ID suggest looking carefully at both potential reasons for the variation in measured combustion chamber volume
so Id use a tiny bit of sealant grease (a bit of Vaseline works if you use colored water, with a drop of dawn dish was liquid to destroy surface tension) you'll obviously want to open up the smaller combustion chambers a bit, and un-shroud the valves and try to match the largest chamber size (in this case about 68.8cc) to equalize the chamber volumes

BTW GREAT CLEAR IMPRESSIVE PICTURES

 

[Indycars]

yes that variation in chamber size on most heads is not un-common (not ideal but not-un-common) , if your sure the glass or lexan is not allowing some of the measuring liquid to seep out of the combustion chamber, under the glass or lexan ,
After filling the chamber I would wait 4-5 minutes to see if the fluid level dropped, indicating a leak.


or the sealant between the glass is not being displaced into the combustion chamber, thus giving you a false volume[/b].
(from the picture it looks like you've got some sealant squeezed into the combustion chambers (VERY EASY TO DO)
Some times while pressing the plate down to make it seal, it would slip sideways leaving a smear of grease.


ID suggest looking carefully at both potential reasons for the variation in measured combustion chamber volume[/color]
so Id use a tiny bit of sealant grease (a bit of Valvoline works if you use colored water, with a drop of dawn dish was liquid to destroy surface tension)
Did you you mean Vaseline or Valvoline ???

you'll obviously want to open up the smaller combustion chambers a bit, and un-shroud the valves and try to match the largest chamber size (in this case about 68.8cc) to equalize the chamber volumes
Guess I need to start with the largest chamber and see where I end up. Then I will know what I've got
to do to the rest of the chambers.


BTW GREAT CLEAR IMPRESSIVE PICTURES
Thanks! I'm using a very old Sony camera that has a Floppy Disk for extra memory. It's twice
the size of the cameras today. NO carrying this puppy in your pocket !



This was my first pass, I shouldn't need super accuracy at this point. Just trying to get an idea where
I'm at. When I go back to make them all the same size, then accuracy will be at the top of my list of priorities.

 

[grumpyvette]

 

[Indycars]

Ok Vaseline..... the kind the doctor uses ! :roll:

I've done some more clearance checking for the crankshaft. The runout looks to be normal except the #4 main
has considerably more than the others.

The crankshaft end play is on the low side at 0.004". I didn't install all main bearings, but just the front and rear
mains. Need to do this again with ALL main bearings installed. Would like to have 0.007 to 0.010" clearance.

 

[grumpyvette]

I've done some more clearance checking for the crankshaft. The run-out looks to be normal except the #4 main
has considerably more than the others.
the first thing Id do is call the crank manufacturer and get their input, what your describing is not un-common and if you have all the other run-out specs that close , while far from ideal its not likely to be something the local crank shop can,t polish out to a closer spec.
if you want to get it correct (ideal route) or you could run it with a .003 bearing clearance and most likely get by with it (not ideal)
the OLD SCHOOL CURE involved marking the high side of the man journal and using a stiff leather belt about 2" wide and some 2.5" wide1000 grit emery cloth under the belt and to do a shoe shine polish on the high side of the journal followed by careful RE-measurement every few minutes and a good cleaning

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=3449&p=10012&hilit=bearing+clearances#p10012
looking at a Chevrolet factory shop manual and its spec on this .0002 on a new shaft and .001 for a serviceable shaft in "V" blocks.
bearings them self DON,T support the crank,on their surface,with the engine running ,its the PRESSURIZED FLOW OF OIL between the crank and the bearing thats supposed to support the crank in a running engine.
so the clearances are obviously not consistent ,a bit of 1000-1200 grit emery cloth work and a good cleaning might help, but Id get the crank manufactures input and personally Id take it to a local crank shop for a quick polish after discussing my concerns with the machinist

The crankshaft end play is on the low side
its common for the thrust bearing to need to be seated,on that 4th main saddle, Id suggest oiling the bearings and crank with assembly lube, installing it with all the main paps in place but only tightened to about 30 ft lbs, and Id give both ends of the crank while youve got it sitting in the main bearings with the main caps loosely tightened a couple good whacks with a lead hammer directly in line with the main axis, driving in forward and backward in the main saddles a few times then RE-measure end play.

http://www.amazon.com/Cook-Hammer-Compa ... B000V7QZEW

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/ho ... og/4329523

http://www.performanceunlimited.com/cob ... ammer.html

BTW a lead hammers not that difficult to make , an old beer can,(TOTALLY DRIED OUT) a 12" length of 1" electrical conduit with a bolt in a drilled hole about 1" in from the end ( so the lead cant pull off)and a 1" hole carefully drilled in the side of the can for the conduit handle)makes a 1 time use hammer head mold, you simply place the can and handle in a shallow soft dry pile of sand so the beer cans vertical and use an old steel 1 qt pot and your acetylene torch to melt about 6-9 lbs of wheel weights, then pour it in the open end of the beer can and let it cool.

http://www.grahamtool.com/leadhammermoldsetsmall.aspx

related info
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=619&p=10925&hilit=+thrust+bearing#p10925

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Thrust_bear ... lures.html

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1138&p=2293&hilit=+thrust+bearing#p2293

http://www.artcarr.com/page/news/1.acpp

Notes: You will still find some full-grooved main sets offered for older engines where demand is low and the engineering cost to bring the sets to current standards is not warranted (bearings generally represent the technology of the time the engine was developed).

Manufacturers are frequently asked what difference grooving makes. Various forms of main bearing grooving have been used over the years.

It’s essential to understand that bearings depend on a film of oil to keep them separated from the shaft surface. This oil film is developed by shaft rotation. As the shaft rotates, it pulls oil into the loaded area of the bearing and rides up on this film much like a tire hydroplaning on wet pavement.

Grooving in a bearing acts like tread in a tire to break up the oil film. While you want your tires to grip the road, you don’t want your bearings to grip the shaft, so grooving is bad for maintaining an oil film. The primary reason for having any grooving in a main bearing is to provide oil to the connecting rods. Without rod bearings to feed, a simple oil hole would be sufficient to lubricate a main bearing.

Many early engines used full grooved bearings and some even used multiple grooves. Those choices were based on what engineers knew at the time. As engine and bearing technology developed, the negative effect of grooving was recognized and bearing grooving was removed from modern lower main bearings. The result is in a thicker film of oil for the shaft to ride on.

This provides a greater safety margin and improved bearing life. Upper main shells, which see lower loads than the lowers, and hence don’t apply the same load to the oil film, have retained a groove to supply the connecting rods with oil.

In an effort to develop the best possible main bearing designs for high performance engines, manufacturers have investigated the effects of main bearing grooving on bearing performance. The graphs (Figure 1) illustrate that a simple 180° groove in the upper main shell is still the best overall design.

While a slightly shorter groove of 140° provides a marginal gain, most of the benefit is to the upper shell, which doesn’t need improvement. On the other hand, extending the groove into the lower half, even as little as 20° at each parting line (220° in total), takes away from upper bearing performance without providing any benefit to the lower half. It’s also interesting to note that as groove length increases so does horsepower loss and peak oil film pressure, which is transmitted directly to the bearing.

Notes: You will still find some full-grooved main sets offered for older engines where demand is low and the engineering cost to bring the sets to current standards is not warranted (bearings generally represent the technology of the time the engine was developed).

Tech Tip courtesy of MAHLE Clevite Inc.

 

[Indycars]

I've done some more clearance checking for the crankshaft. The run-out looks to be normal except the #4 main
has considerably more than the others.
the first thing Id do is call the crank manufacturer and get their input, what your describing is not un-common and if you have all the other run-out specs that close , while far from ideal its not likely to be something the local crank shop can,t polish out to a closer spec.
if you want to get it correct (ideal route) or you could run it with a .003 bearing clearance and most likely get by with it (not ideal)
the OLD SCHOOL CURE involved marking the high side of the man journal and using a stiff leather belt about 2" wide and some 2.5" wide1000 grit emery cloth under the belt and to do a shoe shine polish on the high side of the journal followed by careful RE-measurement every few minutes and a good cleaning

looking at a Chevrolet factory shop manual and its spec on this .0002 on a new shaft and .001 for a serviceable shaft in "V" blocks.
bearings them self DON,T support the crank,on their surface,with the engine running ,its the PRESSURIZED FLOW OF OIL between the crank and the bearing thats supposed to support the crank in a running engine.
so the clearances are obviously not consistent ,a bit of 1000-1200 grit emery cloth work and a good cleaning might help, but Id get the crank manufactures input and personally Id take it to a local crank shop for a quick polish after discussing my concerns with the machinist

Rick Says:
Should there be any grinding or polishing on a crankshaft that has been NITRIDE HARDENED, unless you are prepared to go
thru the process again ???


The crankshaft end play is on the low side
its common for the thrust bearing to need to be seated,on that 4th main saddle, Id suggest oiling the bearings and crank with assembly lube, installing it with all the main paps in place but only tightened to about 30 ft lbs, and Id give both ends of the crank while youve got it sitting in the main bearings with the main caps loosely tightened a couple good whacks with a lead hammer directly in line with the main axis, driving in forward and backward in the main saddles a few times then RE-measure end play.

Rick Says:
I did seat the bearing with a small dead blow hammer, but only from the rear. I did not do both ends.

 

[grumpyvette]

Id try giving the crank a couple good whacks with a plastic dead blow hammer on each end ,
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-lb-neon- ... 69002.html

directly in line with the axis, driving it back and forth in the main bearings a couple times and remeasuring as Ive found thats usually all thats required, but if you do need more clearance a sheet of glass and a sheet of 400 grit wet/dry sand paper and running water can be used to polish off a few thousands from the thrust face on the bearing.
but I really doubt youll have a problem, or need to do that, even with the current clearance

http://www.mcmaster.com/#sandpaper-rolls/=c0402p
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=1222

as to shoe shine polishing the high side of the journal with a leather belt and emery cloth ,your only looking to polish out about .0004-.0005 certainly not enough to remove significant strength

he "proper" way of polishing the crank is done by spinning the crank and using a polishing belt to polish it in the same direction of rotation as the engine runs, and any decent crank repair shop can do that in minutes on a single journal

 

[Indycars]

Id try giving the crank a couple good whacks with a plastic dead blow hammer on each end ,directly in line with the axis, driving it back and forth in the main bearings a couple times and remeasuring as Ive found thats usually all thats required, but if you do need more clearance a sheet of glass and a sheet of 400 grit wet/dry sand paper and running water can be used to polish off a few thousands from the thrust face on the bearing.
but I really doubt youll have a problem, or need to do that, even with the current clearance
as to shoe shine polishing the high side of the journal with a leather belt and emery cloth ,your only looking to polish out about .0004-.0005 certainly not enough to remove significant strength

he "proper" way of polishing the crank is done by spinning the crank and using a polishing belt to polish it in the same direction of rotation as the engine runs, and any decent crank repair shop can do that in minutes on a single journal

I will do my checks again when I get the block back from the machine shop with your suggested changes. I might
give the machine shop a call on Monday and have them check the run out and see if they get the same numbers
before I get too concerned. There is a very slim chance I made a mistake.

 

[Indycars]

Bought a couple of cheap valves to protect the valve seats while I'm working on the chambers. It' hard
to get to all the edges, so I tapered the valve on the chamber side to reduce the amount it stick into
the chamber. I slightly reduced the OD of the valve also. My valves are 2.02 / 1.6 and I can tell you that
a 1.94 / 1.5 valves will NOT cover the 45 degree seat angle that provides the seal during the power stroke.
At least the free valves I got would not cover the 45 degree seat.



When it came too the final touch up, I had to work without a safety net (no valves) to completely eliminate
edge "B".



Below is a comparison of before and after chambers with the edges I was most concerned with. Obviously
I had to work with out my safety net when working on edge "C". All these chamber need now is polishing after
I have CC'ed all the chambers again and made them the same size.



I would like to grind all the small pits out, but I don't
think its going to be worth the extra effort and increase chamber size.

What is an acceptable difference in chamber size........maybe 0.4 - 0.5cc ???

 

[grumpyvette]

a difference of only a half a cc (0.5cc) won,t make a significant difference in most engines, stock engines frequently have two to three times that variation, in chamber voluum. once again IM very impressed with the care & effort your taking , i seldom see guys go to that extent when building a street/strip engine ........reminds me of all the hours I spent on my last race big block!
don,t get crazy polishing the combustion chambers either, , obviously you'll want to clean all the casting irregularity's


viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3143&p=8387&hilit=+valve+back+degree+cut#p8387

 

[Indycars]

a difference of only a half a cc (0.5cc) won,t make a significant difference in most engines, stock engines frequently have two to three times that variation, in chamber volume. once again IM very impressed with the care & effort your taking , i seldom see guys go to that extent when building a street/strip engine ........reminds me of all the hours I spent on my last race big block!
don,t get crazy polishing the combustion chambers either, , obviously you'll want to clean all the casting irregularity's

How many hours do you think you have in that engine ??? Have you posted any pics or dyno numbers on the forum already ???

 

[grumpyvette]

I hate to say this but... I never bothered to take pictures because, up until very recently the only camera I had access too was a cell phone, and up until about a few years ago I didn,t think anyone much cared, what was involved, except for the few guys I regularly built engines for, and a few friends that knew what was involved because they stopped by the shop regularly

 

[Indycars]

I had a cartridge roll chunk a piece of itself off and leave some scuff marks on the actual valve seat.
I suspect if I look close enough I might find others places with slight damage on the seats. So I'm wondering
if there is an easy way to check the seal of the valves after I'm all done ? Can fill the chambers with
alcohol when the heads are assembled with the actual valve spring and check for leaks ?

Is there an valid way to check all my seats prior to engine assembly, so I don't have to rely on just a
visual inspection ???

Below is the damage the cartridge roll did.

 

[grumpyvette]

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1159&p=2362&hilit=lapping#p2362

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=8460&p=29682&hilit=seat+curtain+valve#p29682

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=8485&p=29767&hilit=port+stall#p29767

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=462&p=24466&hilit=port+stall#p24466

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5445&p=16244&hilit=port+stall#p16244

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=322&p=12391&hilit=port+stall#p12391

these threads on lapping the valve seats to get a good seal , porting and related info might help

 

[Indycars]

Thanks for the link ! I think I will get some 400-800 grit lapping compound.

How long would you wait for the Alcohol to show a leak before you called it good.... 4 - 5 minutes maybe ???

 

[grumpyvette]

two minutes should be all thats required, if you have a bad seat youll know it in under 2 minutes with a couple teaspoons of alcohol in the port behind the valve